Navigating the Music Industry as a Young Professional

Jakob

Today is going to be a really interesting conversation I've been looking forward to. It is with the amazing Caroline Ravn. I'm Danish myself, but when I sort of started my career, there's one person I believed a lot in, and that is Kaeline. She's very young. And actually, the conversation is going to be about that. It's going to be about the music industry and how it is to be a young professional in the music industry. And I think the most perfect person to talk with about that is Kaeline, because you're a very smart, but also very honest and observant person. And I think we could have some, let's call it evaluation of the music industry right now in the Nordics and how it is to be young and ambitious in it. But Caroline, welcome.

Caroline Ravn

Thank you. Very nice to be here.

Jakob

Where... yeah. Where do you live? Can you tell me a bit about who you are and your story so far?

Caroline Ravn

Yeah, well right now I sit in my apartment in Copenhagen. So yeah, that's it. And I've lived in Copenhagen for the past seven, almost seven years. Growing up in the main part of Denmark, Jutland. So yeah, coming into Copenhagen was a new way of seeing opportunities, I think.

Caroline Ravn

What did you say about what I've done so far?

Jakob

Yeah, I can just, we'll edit this out. So I'll just rephrase the question. Carlini, can you tell me a bit about yourself? How did you come into the music industry and what are you doing right now?

Caroline Ravn

Hmm?

Caroline Ravn

Yeah, well I think I became a part of the music industry by as many playing music and writing songs myself when I was very young. And I think after like five years or so playing on a somewhat level back in Jutland, then I... I moved to Copenhagen and I realized the other side of this working with music in the business side of things, the coordinating stuff and writing emails and all that other stuff. And I think I both, after maybe one year of moving to Copenhagen, I think I realized that I both was better at this part and I also enjoyed this part more than the... actual playing of music. So kind of transitioned from a musician into an industry professional five, six, seven years ago.

Jakob

What's interesting about that is the music industry, when people say that I like being structured and organized stuff, people are like, oh, wait, what? Because there's so few people that actually has that as one of the main interesting qualities. So did you, because I met you when you started studying at RMC, which is a music school that also focuses on music business. Two seconds, Carlina.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Jakob

It seems like your internet is poor, it says.

Caroline Ravn

Let me try and change just a sec.

Caroline Ravn

Can you tell this is better?

Jakob

Yeah, um, you... Yeah, no, I think your resolution at least seems better. So I think... Did you switch to MOBA?

Caroline Ravn

Currently I have two Wi-Fi options in my apartment because we're changing. So we just installed the new one this morning, so it just changed back to the old.

Jakob

Oh, okay.

Jakob

Okay, cool. So I met you, Carolina, when you were studying first year music business, I think it's called, at RMC. How did you get into doing that side?

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah, I think it was at the beginning of that transition I participated in a music entrepreneur cause called Royalties and there I met people. I entered the program as, I guess, an artist and I definitely exited it as an industry professional. And I think it was there that I met people both applying for this education of music management and also getting into it. So that's where I started my journey towards being accepted because it's a pretty sought out program. only accepting like seven or eight students a year. So it takes a lot of experience to get accepted basically.

Jakob

Yeah. That's why I met you. And what really stood out to me is, what I mentioned before is like, you seem to have a different approach to work in communication as most other people in the music industry. If you were to pinpoint yourself how you are different in how you act and who you are in the music industry, what would that be?

Caroline Ravn

interesting. I feel like for the past few years both being while studying my bachelor's and also since I guess I think I've seen myself more as a person knowing what I wasn't interested in than what I was interested in. not that I don't know what I'm interested in, but there were more things about the music industry that I didn't want to do than I wanted to do. And then I feel like I've kept myself for a few years from falling into traps, kind of, and restraining myself from, for example, like I've always had this thing about artist management, like I think it's super interesting and relevant and the core of the industry in some ways, at least the commercial.

Caroline Ravn

side of the music industry. But I never really wanted to be a manager myself. I guess recent years I became close because I worked in artist management as a manager but I wasn't really the manager. That's kind of maybe an example of how I feel a bit conflicted about artist management. But yeah, no, I never dreamed about becoming an A&R at a major label or a project manager at a major label or... doing festivals, executing big events never really took my interest. Yeah, so there's a lot of things that I don't want to do, which I think maybe is part of the critical perspective I have on things. I don't know if that makes me different, but yeah.

Jakob

Mm.

Jakob

Hmm

Jakob

No, I definitely think it makes you different. And let's just jump into it already because you know, you use the word as traps. What do you mean by not falling into traps?

Caroline Ravn

I don't know, I just think during those years of building up my resume for getting into the music management program, I think I just tried out a lot of things as you need to do and I was very open and gained a lot of experiences from many sides of the industry, both like organizational and political work and festivals and GM management and fundraising and stuff like that. I think I just everywhere I went I realized, yeah, I discovered these traps.

Caroline Ravn

I think what I mean about traps is that it's easy, I seem to think it's easy to get stuck in the industry some way with a lot of, maybe just a few passive choices and then you suddenly 5-10 years went by and you didn't gain the development that you wanted to in the first place but because you weren't critical about your own journey you got stuck in a trap I guess. Does it make sense?

Jakob

Yeah, I want to understand more. Is it because that there's a limit to what you can do and there's also a limit to what ambitions you can have in those certain positions?

Caroline Ravn

sure about that I just think at least for me I've realized those things probably weren't what I wanted to do but also a lot of things I think the main thing with this is also that I'm interested in I'm interested in people and processes and really I think the management of people and processes, so management itself. But I think even though enjoying also here in my younger years, like really being on the ground and grinding a lot is nice, but I've always felt like my future lies in more senior management positions. And I could see... These kind of people in the industry also still being kind of bound to ground level work. Like CEOs of management companies still being like managing a few artists themselves instead of focusing their energy and managing the business and their employees. And I definitely envision myself managing businesses and employees more than projects in the future. So I felt like the more time I spent, the more success I would gain in, for example, doing artist management. The more I knew I would also not be able to let it go. It wasn't ever my end goal. So I've been a bit careful about starting up these things, I think.

Jakob

Yeah, and what you know, now I'm trying to interpret what you're saying, but what I hear it as is the music industry is not attractive in the traditional sense of, you know, you can, you can have a career where you can place yourself in different periods of, of hierarchy and you can have, you know, CEO jobs where you focus on, you know, CEO things, but everything is sort of limited to, to doing a lot of basic work still.

Caroline Ravn

I guess some places and in some ways but I think mostly it's not about the limitations, it's more about that the success you gain in the music industry is very often very personally focused and so it's not easy to change jobs I think. Because it's not... I don't know, it's also like a bit of maybe... That's where the luck and the magic comes in. Like what you gain is not necessarily directly transferable to another job. At least the success of it. And I think... I mean, I love working with successful artists. But again, I think the people and the processes are more of my focus. And...

Jakob

Mm.

Caroline Ravn

So I've always wanted to work somewhere where I could take the stuff I learned and bring it to my next position and not have too much of it be that specific personal relationship in the work.

Jakob

No, it makes sense. It makes sense. It's just a unique perspective. So I'm trying to understand it as well as I can. One of the things that, you know, is one of my problems with the music industry is sort of correlated to what you're saying. And that is, you know, in startup language, you call it like a bootstrap company. And which basically means you take no investors in, which also means, especially in the music industry, it takes years and years and years and years to build a company, which also plays into what you're saying about being stuck. And

Caroline Ravn

Yeah, yeah.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Jakob

So is that sort of also what you're saying, that in order to have any successful career, you need to prove your worth over such a long time? You get stuck because then that is who you are.

Caroline Ravn

I think that's how it works for a lot of people in this industry and I think a lot of people feel super great about this. I think just what I realized for me is that I didn't want to do it like this. I didn't want to slowly build a company and then run it and be successful. I wanted to... get on board a company and then run it successfully. I feel like there's a lot to gain in bringing new perspective and being that fresh energy. I see also that's where my maybe stronger professional sides are, is coming in and cleaning up and restructurizing and improving strategy.

Jakob

Mm.

Caroline Ravn

And then moving on whenever my job is done, kind of. More than owning and building from scratch. I think that's, some other people are definitely better at building from scratch than I am. And I'm better later on in the process.

Jakob

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jakob

That makes sense and what you're describing is a fairly normal thing in many other industries. But it's also super foreign to the music industry. Like I was just thinking while you were talking like, do I know anyone who has that job or any companies that are sort of looking for those jobs? Because what tends to happen is, you know, if you found a company and even if it grows, you'll stay the CEO until that company doesn't exist anymore.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Jakob

Like there's sort of no room for transition of leadership or letting other people take over. And then the company's journey and potential is also really limited to whether or not that CEO is as good as managing a company as they were at starting it. Because it is, as you say, two different things. I'm an entrepreneur. I start things. And I can run things, but only in a superb context with other people that are really good at what, you know, stuff that you are good at.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Jakob

But that's, you know, even as silly as that sounds, that's not an obvious thing in the music industry. So, because you say, you sort of, this is what you want to do and I, you know, as a person who knows you, I would say, I think you would be and are amazing at those things. So, sort of, not to spill the beans, but you know, the last conversation we had, you talked about, you know, maybe looking for opportunities for some time or longer time, look for opportunities outside of the music industry.

Caroline Ravn

Thanks.

Jakob

Is that because you can't find this role you're talking about?

Caroline Ravn

I think no matter what, I think that role was always something that I envisioned like later on in my career. And then the question for me has been how am I gonna spend my time the most?

Caroline Ravn

like relevant in gaining those qualities and experiences that I need for this future position that doesn't really exist in the music industry right now but maybe it will one day and maybe I could create it or maybe not like doesn't really I don't really know about that but at least the question for me has been how to spend those years in between and Well, first of all, I just finished my bachelor and did a few years of working. And then I think what happened the past year or so is that I discovered...

Caroline Ravn

that I needed to maybe make some other choices for myself. I realized that I was already being looked upon for some of these managing positions for smaller organizations in the music industry. And while of course feeling super honored for this, I also felt misinterpreted because I don't think that I have the qualities it takes to run a... like an organizational company. And I don't think... I don't think I'm ready for this. Like, the things that I want to do, I don't have the experiences for this. I've never, actually, I've never worked and referred to a professional... CEO like a hired professional CEO the way that I want to be a CEO myself I've never worked for one of those so I could never I Could never do that and I didn't I don't want to do that before having experienced referring to one and Yeah, as you say, they're not that many of those in the music industry so I think that's why I'm curious to perhaps try a few years outside of the industry and meet some different organizations, bigger and more professional and corporate organizations. I definitely have a corporate side of me, I'm very creative but also very corporate and I need to be pushed a bit more I think in the corporate side.

Jakob

I want to dig a bit into this because... You know, this is sort of my analytics, and I just gave an analogy right before with, you know, founding CEOs of music companies that stay CEOs for maybe way too long. Do you think that these companies should and could have made room for people who think and operate differently than themselves and that have been beneficial to the music industry at large?

Caroline Ravn

Can you rephrase? Like, I'm not sure what you mean exactly.

Jakob

Yeah, so no, I'll try to rephrase. It's also a difficult question. There's these music companies that's been started by people and those people who founded the company still stay on and CEOs and operate the company to a good or not so good level. If those companies proactively chose to give managerial or operational opportunities to younger, more structured, more qualified people in the industry, do you think that would

Caroline Ravn

Hmm?

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Jakob

positively affect the industry.

Caroline Ravn

I don't think it's got much to do about age, but more about qualities and experiences. And this is something that I've been thinking about a lot and I'm very careful. Believing that I know too much about it because that's what I just talked about like I realized there's a lot here that I don't know And that I don't have the experience with also because I've not seen it in the industry. So I'm really balancing myself here, but Yes, I believe there's a conflict between the Energy and passion it takes I think the creativity Lies in the startup and in the founding partners of a company And I think in the beginning that needs to be a huge drive and factor, being pretty much at top. I don't believe in just having money and then hiring creative minds to be magical. I think the intention needs to come from those founders. But yeah, I think at a certain point, I think the founding... partner needs to realize if they found the company to create it or to run it. And then I think you could definitely hire people and benefit from that. But hiring people...

Jakob

Hmm.

Caroline Ravn

from the outside not having their hearts in the business takes a lot of money and I think feels maybe super unsecure for the founding partner or partners which is why I don't think it happens that often.

Caroline Ravn

I haven't really seen the successful example of this yet. And I'm not sure how it would work actually in the music industry. I think the first time you do that, I think with...

Jakob

No, and I-

Caroline Ravn

with more established companies where it's been founded a lot of years ago and then different people have run it during time, I think that's part of the culture and the organization and then that's a habit kind of, it makes sense for everyone involved but for people having started something maybe five, ten years ago and then someone else coming in suddenly being in charge but knowing nothing about the history of the past ten years of developing I think that's also a difficult task like almost impossible Yeah, that first round of getting people in from the outside, being in a manager position, yeah.

Jakob

No, and it makes sense. And I think it's a really interesting problem you're presenting because I also believe that it's not, for people, let's say like you, who come from music and are good at what stuff that you're good at, they're not gonna stay in the industry, hence this talk, if those opportunities don't present themselves. And it's like, I also believe that, you know, companies would perform better if you would have a differentiation between the founder gene or the passionate creator gene or the musician that sort of structure the friends to make a company gene, and then into let's manage this company, let's scale it, let's look at healthy finances and reporting all that kind of stuff. And I rarely, if ever, see founders who's able to do both perfectly. I think people can manage.

Caroline Ravn

to fatty.

Jakob

And I'm just gonna use one minute talking about how I do it because I'm a creator. I'm an artist. I might be do business full time, but I see myself as an artist, not a musical artist, but as a thinker, as a creative. But how I run my company right now, which has around 20 employees, is that I continue creating and I have two guys focusing on managing. Yeah.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah. But you start the company like this, right? Yeah.

Jakob

Started from maybe the first one and a half years we didn't have enough resources to bring in outside qualities of that level. But right now I have a general manager in the company who's called Taj Deccan, who comes from India and who comes from tech, technology. Another guy who also comes from a different COO, operations position in other music technology company. So it's together with those three people running the company together. But I've also been very clear, like, I believe my qualities are in creating. My qualities are in partnerships and it is seeing the future, at least trying to predict the future. And that's qualities I'm not going to let go of in order to run the ship. But this ship needs to go and it needs to float and needs to go fast. So therefore this is your job. And, you know, because I completely agree with what you say with, I think, those roles should exist, but I also have observed those roles don't exist. And that is such a huge problem, I believe, because, you know, the music industry is small, there's limited opportunities, but what's the reason for it? And I think there's many reasons, but one of the reasons that I believe is that it's poorly managed.

Caroline Ravn

But I think actually, because I think the core difference in your example...

Jakob

Carlina, I think I just... I just... I just... I just lost you for 10 seconds.

Caroline Ravn

Ah, I'm just gonna begin from fresh. Yeah, I think one of the core differences from your example and from what we see in the rest of the industry is that you founded the company knowing this and having this intention. And you also, this isn't the first company that you found. So I think...

Jakob

Yep.

Caroline Ravn

The issue is, and that's also coming back to being a young industry professional in the industry, I think the options for a young person in the industry, I feel like you have three options. You have either the option of... getting a somewhat boring, clean job in a bigger organization, getting a decent pay and not claiming your life's purpose but being treated fairly, I guess. And then you have the option of creating something yourself from scratch, not being paid at all for a lot of years because you're gaining all of your experiences as you found this company. So that takes a lot of years and you're struggling on the side with some side job. Or the third option, of course, to do something in between, like working a very cool place, gaining a lot of cool experiences, but getting paid like a little, but mostly getting paid not that much. And really putting all of your resources and hours into a company that you're not owning yourself. So like really... working for somebody else's success. But of course also gaining like really cool stuff from it. And I think a lot of people either can't find the first or the third option or they just really want to create something themselves. And then they start the companies at 2022 like... just very slow and very unprofessional. And that of course is never with the intention or the imagination even to, to hire a CEO. Um, like, like that's, that's an issue coming way longer ahead. And then it might be too late to really do that easily at least. Yeah.

Jakob

Hmm. Now, and I think that's a really interesting list. One of the points that I didn't hear you mention is the ordinary one, is that you go get paid what you're worth. Yeah. That's an issue. That's definitely an issue. Um, because...

Caroline Ravn

Yeah, yeah. No, not an option.

Caroline Ravn

Of course it exists, but they're definitely... those jobs are also just really difficult to get. So it's not an option as a really young professional. I mean, either you start, you can start at Universal with no experience, but then you're a receptionist. And that's, for me, that would then more be into the first category of just taking a somewhat boring job, but at a big organization that pays you fairly, but it's not like you gain the most. significant experiences from being a receptionist. Might be a stepping stone, it might be worth it, but it's not what you want to do. Like you can't just enter the music industry doing what you want to do, that's my point. Or if you choose that then you don't get paid.

Jakob

Hmm.

Jakob

It makes sense and it's so interesting. Like actually I was sitting by myself yesterday and thinking about something and that is, I might just be delusional and it might not make sense but I was just saying, okay, let's say that what I do right now won't exist in a couple of years. It will, but you know, just playing with the thought. And I was actually in doubt whether or not if I could get a job. Like, you know.

Caroline Ravn

Hmm?

Jakob

I'm sitting here with, you know, being, leading a company that's doing very well and I have, I'm very good at education and I have a lot of experience. And I can sit here as a 30 year old where I'm like really at the top of my game, I think myself, and just like, could I even get a job? Like actually having that question I think is surreal. And whether or not that's true or not, you know, that's a different conversation, but that I actually honestly can ask myself that question. I think that's scary. Like for people wanting to get into the industry.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Caroline Ravn

But that's what I mean about traps from the beginning. Like, kind of. You're also setting up a trap for yourself. Not as long as it's successful and you enjoy it. But as you say, it's not, you don't necessarily get to take exactly what you've been doing in this company and this role and just bring it to another job. That's not really the energy of...

Jakob

Hmm.

Caroline Ravn

most functions in the music industry. And that's what I knew I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to move on. Like, get in, learn stuff, bring it to the next place, learn new stuff and then bring it on and like, and do different things like that. So that's why I didn't found the company like you did. Yeah.

Jakob

Yeah.

Jakob

Yeah. And I'm all for entrepreneurship. So don't understand me wrong, but I'm also very much for informed entrepreneurship that's intentional. And that's not what's happening in the music industry. So there's a lot of entrepreneurship, but it's forced entrepreneurship, and it's not made with the right amount of love and intention and information that it should. So therefore you get these entrepreneurs that shouldn't be entrepreneurs and not qualified to be entrepreneurs, and then they end up

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Jakob

you know, not wasting 10 years of their life, but sometimes they do, just because, you know.

Caroline Ravn

But as you say, they get stuck in what they created, which creates all of these unhealthy structures and companies in the industry, grabbing a little bit of the cake, but not really making a fucking party with it.

Jakob

No. When people, you know, comment stuff, what they're doing right now, it doesn't mean we have a solution. But have you thought about things that you think could improve the industry about these things we're talking about?

Caroline Ravn

I think it's a whole ecosystem and I do believe that it is being improved.

Caroline Ravn

I think what drives and what's nice about the music industry is also of course what's challenging about it. And I'm very, wherever I go and whenever I meet one of these challenges, I'm very conscious or at least I try to remain conscious about whether it's the industry that needs changing or me that should just move on to something else. Like, because I think a lot of people really thrive in this and enjoy it. And just because, I mean, you called me different. And I think I'm also considering if I am maybe just not meant for this industry. Like, I don't, at least I only want to remain in the industry and create the changes that I believe in. If... some people want those changes as well. So I'm not gonna fight against the industry. I'm gonna fight for it and with it, if I am and when I am. And some of the things that I believe in, I guess, attracting different people, new and more diverse people, professionalizing a lot of those.

Jakob

Hmm. Yeah.

Caroline Ravn

processes of, yeah, and also improving like the conditions around being a young industry professional here. Yeah, just professionalizing and improving all of these channels. I think that's the headlines of what I think needs to be done. But that needs to be done both in education and in salaries and in... development. Also one of the things that I've missed a lot is somebody else taking responsibility for my development. I feel like I've always had that responsibility myself mostly and I'm just curious what could happen to me as a professional capacity if somebody else with more experience took that responsibility upon themselves. I mean I would love that.

Jakob

Hmm.

Jakob

It's cool. It's like hearing myself preach, to be honest. Like that's sort of also what I pinpoint. And you know, this podcast is a part of, you know, multiple aspects I have and plans for the future because I believe in empowerment, I believe in education, I believe in profanization, and I believe in salaries. And it's all something that I would say that I feel very alone in though. like I, you know, investing years into this company and you know, I've started to take out salary now, also for the symbolic reason that, you know, if I'm fighting for this, you know, I gotta survive myself. But I don't meet a lot of people in the music industry who's really betting a business on these things. And because I believe exactly what you're saying that's one of the key for the futures for making attractive.

Caroline Ravn

Mm.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Jakob

But also, when I talk about music industry, this is sort of my narrative, is I don't believe it's attractive now, but I believe that it will be in the future, and I'm gonna play a part of it because I love the music industry. I love the music industry more than I love music. Because it has an impact. And yeah, that's maybe a bit controversial to say, but because my love for this does not come from music. I like music. I don't love music, but I love building and I love the complexity of the industry. I love all the problems. So that's sort of, I wanna be a part of that puzzle. But what do you think you're gonna do? Like what's your future gonna bring?

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah.

Caroline Ravn

Yeah, that's a good question. I think one of the... I mean, right now we're just talking about those in-between years, kind of. I feel like I just still got started. And also, so some of them building my experience and I feel like there's a particular set of experience that I need to gain in my late 20s, beginning of 30s maybe. Before going into these more senior management positions. And for those in between years, it's not, I've really allowed myself to open up and not be too specific about the kind of industry and the kind of product that I'd be working with. Of course I'm not looking, or not of course, but I'm definitely not looking to project management new. Windmill parks or like railroad projects, that's not the game. But the product could be a lot of things and so what I'm looking for is maybe mostly the size of an organization being like just anything more than 10 would be new for me but preferably bigger, right? Both in bigger teams, but also of course in bigger, more teams within the org and really working towards this goal. And then I'm looking for this professional management to refer to, where it's not their job to do the work that we're doing, but to manage. Looking for those mentors and then of course looking to also actually have the resources to be able to make ambitious plans and strategies towards these goals, whatever they may be. Because I think also that's a thing that characterizes the music industry is a lack of resources and I feel like I don't get to test my professional limits if I don't...

Caroline Ravn

It's of course a challenge in a different way, but I feel like I want to try at least that the resources are not the issue. I want to be like the... the thing that makes things fall apart and not be able to blame it on like, oh, but we didn't have enough money to really like, I want to see how far I can take things when I have the right mandate and resources available within the team. Um, and then I think I just, I just love, um, helping dreams come true. Like,

Jakob

Mm.

Caroline Ravn

As yourself and creators like yourself, I'm very drawn to people with big visions and ambitions and also because I see that they don't know how to make this come alive and I think I do and I think I can help people very much remain ambitious and even enlarge their visions. While creating the structure around it for them to come true kind of. So I'd love to find a company with like really meaningful ambitions. Yeah but that could be a lot of things I guess.

Jakob

Hmm.

Jakob

Yeah. I think it's interesting in all those things you said you just wanted to do, you also said the opposite of the things you didn't want to do. So if people really want to figure out what you don't like, then go play that back and listen to that. One of the things, you know, we'll sort of wrap up this episode soon, but one of the things you mentioned that we haven't talked about before is the word mentors. What's been your experience so far with mentors in the music industry?

Caroline Ravn

Hehehe

Caroline Ravn

I think I read once that you should have a mentor, like you should change your mentors during your career and your development. And I think also why I might be looking for something outside the industry at the moment is because I feel like I've met... a lot of really cool people in the industry that has taken me to the points where I am at the moment. I definitely have a few people that I've really, I don't know how to put it but kind of exploited for whatever they were good at. But I think I need... perspective now, I need something else. I think, again, not to be stuck, I think you need to seek new things, especially while being only 28. I think it's important not to choose your mental 22 and then just keeping that for the rest of your life. If that works for you, perfect. But for me, I want to, again, I want to go in and then I want to...

Jakob

Hmm.

Caroline Ravn

Improve and do my thing and then I want to leave it better. But that's the same vibe I need with my mentors. I want to dive into a professional relationship and then I want to grab what I can take and what I need and then I want to move on to something else.

Jakob

Mm.

Caroline Ravn

Because I think that's the thing about mentors. If you're a good mentor, then you've got something, that one thing or that few things that you're just really inspirational about, but you don't cover everything. They're kind of a specialist. And I strive to be more of a generalist, so I need to jump from mentor to mentor. Yeah.

Jakob

No, that makes a lot of sense. Um, I have a question. Let's say you had a daughter or a sister that was sort of at the age of going into picking a career, someone close to you. Would you recommend them going into the music industry?

Caroline Ravn

Yes, for sure. Depending on whatever they wanted to do. I think the main thing is just to be clear about what you want and then check in regularly with yourself if you're getting this from whatever you're doing. Not getting stuck or setting yourself into a trap. So I think that's just the thing to be conscious about is I've always done like, or not always, but I've tried to somehow I think it fits like maybe twice a year or something. I've sat down like on this big table and made like drawings and sketches about whatever I had going on my both personal life and career and stuff and what brought me energy and... what brought me money and what felt good and like what was the ratio of me putting something into it and also me gaining something from it and then realizing the most significant and also the least significant things that I was doing and then cutting the least significant off like cleaning up in my professional life and staying on track kind of in what I wanted and I think that's just... You don't get to know what you want to do by thinking about it, you get to know things by doing things. I think limbo is useless, you just need to take action, but you also need to not be afraid of removing yourself from things and being critical. I think the music industry is a great place to try yourself out as a person and as a professional, but... as long as you just don't get stuck in it. Because it's very much of a hangout industry, right? Like it's easy to, I feel like you need to sort of exchange what you're not getting paid in friends and relationships and free beers. And when you just get stuck in those amazing people and friends and amazing free beers, then you just forget your professional ambitions. And yeah, maybe you wake up like in 10 years and was like.

Jakob

Wow.

Caroline Ravn

What did I want to do again?

Jakob

That's so interesting. It's the first time I've heard someone say it like that. And that really strikes a chord. You know, how... What did you just say? I'll think about it. I think that's definitely worth an extra thought. If that's a part of the... Not necessarily the intentional game, but that's the part of the game. Like how to keep people... Let's call it delusional. Delusional about their own... compensation of worth.

Caroline Ravn

Hehehe

Caroline Ravn

I think again, I think it's for some people and I think some people really enjoy it and also for a full lifetime and that's great. And there I know some of these people in the industry and they're some of the most significant people in the industry. So there's nothing bad about it. The thing I just want to utilize is that you need to check in with yourself. Like is this what I want to do or is this not what I want to do? And be aware what you... sacrifice and what you exchange for whatever you're not getting. Like how are you filling the holes of the things that you're not getting? Just awareness basically and active choices. That's gonna be my fight for people.

Jakob

Hmm.

Jakob

Hmm.

Jakob

That makes sense. I think this is incredibly insightful, Kaolina, and of course, you know, to deep dive into a lot of points, we need a lot of time. But I think this really gave a really cool perspective that's a bit different. And it's really nice to hear it from a very young, very talented person. And maybe the reasons why they're not going to stay in the music industry for now, I think, concerning coming back later. And I think if you come back later, that's definitely going to be a lot of... places for you to fit in. So I think that's really cool, Carlina. I wanna thank you for your time being at the podcast. And I'm very happy that we have, I know you and we have a relationship. And, you know, I'll definitely try to hire you one day. So this is a great first interview.

Caroline Ravn

Haha good luck there's a lot of things i don't want to do remember that no i think it's been it's been great being here and i think it's been difficult as well because i'm i guess i'm one of the youngest participants in the podcast so far um so like i don't really know what i have to contribute with compared to the

Jakob

That makes sense. Okay, I'm gonna leave the-

Caroline Ravn

Super senior people you've had in so far. But perhaps if we're lucky, this is just a tiny bit inspirational for younger people. Yeah.

Jakob

I think it's much more important than you would understand. It's really important to hear about these things from the people who's walking in their shoes.

Caroline Ravn

I hope so. Let's hope so. Yeah.

Jakob

Yeah. Cool. I'll just stop the recording. So.