How the Foundation App Empowers Artists

Jakob

Perfect, great. Do you have your devices on Do Not Disturb?

Ryan Schmidt

I do. I do.

Jakob

Great, cool, normally we can have a sort of longer chit chat, but Mikey did actually run me through the pitch deck and I feel like at least from the company side, I have a good understanding. So I think it's maybe even beneficial that I discover the rest of the journey just in the conversation, if that's okay with you. I have one way that I usually start the podcast, not because it's very holy, it's just super simple. I usually do a super...

Ryan Schmidt

Absolutely.

Jakob

Quick introduction, just like very high level. And then I basically ask you to introduce yourself. And I do that for everyone. And I say, who are you and what do you do? And normally like a 30 second answer is more than good enough. And then we'll touch point on the actual foundation app and just what is that? And then we'll dive into the journey. And it's gonna be mixture of like a founder journey, so your journey into it, but obviously that's gonna be based a lot about the problem. So I think that's where we're gonna spend most of our time. There's a few like predefined questions that more like guiding lines. So we'll probably touch all of them, but you know, I might take some detours and stuff. So I'll try my best to have an interesting dynamic conversation.

Ryan Schmidt

Great.

Ryan Schmidt

Looking forward to it.

Jakob

Cool, I think that's it from my side. Do you have anything you need? Coffee, water?

Ryan Schmidt

Yeah, we're good.

Jakob

Great. Do I call it the foundation app or foundation app? Great, cool. Then I will begin in five seconds.

Ryan Schmidt

Foundation app.

Jakob

Hey guys and welcome back to the Sound Conditions Podcast. Today we have a quite special episode with Ryan Schmidt. Welcome.

Ryan Schmidt

Thank you so much for having me.

Jakob

Ryan, we have a friend in common, Mike Holland, that was on the podcast a few episodes ago, and he told me about something he's building together with a very smart guy called Ryan, and I checked out what you guys were doing, and I was very fascinated. So, Ryan, welcome. I'm really interested in this conversation.

Ryan Schmidt

Thank you so much. Love Mike and so excited to be talking about the app.

Jakob

So before we go into that, Ryan, for the people who don't know you, who are you and what do?

Ryan Schmidt

My name's Ryan Schmidt. Based in the United States. I'm an artist turned music lawyer, and it's my passion to help artists level up and toughen up in this music business.

Jakob

Yeah, it's needed. Definitely. I've been on both sides of music, both from a business side and from the creative side. And I have struggled my whole life, even though I'm quite good at self-educating the concepts of music and all the traps you go through. And now when I work internationally, also see that the traps in my region might be very different from a different region. And so also the partnerships across oceans can look very different. It's super complicated, so I'm very happy to see you guys actually working on this. But what is the foundation app? Foundation app. Like, what do you guys do? What problem are you trying to solve?

Ryan Schmidt

We like to think of it as it's music business school in your pocket. What we have found working with artists, me as an artist turned music lawyer, Mike as an artist manager, is that there's better outcomes with artists when that knowledge gap is lessened. And it's not so much that the information isn't out there, though in the age of social media, some of that information just isn't good and it isn't reliable, but it's really... Artists need a centralized place to find correct information and then spend as much time as possible working on their craft and working on their business. So we wanted to create Foundation as a way to have a fun gamified learning platform where two to five minutes a day you could go in and learn one piece of information about the music business that's really going to enhance your music business.

Jakob

So what's sort of the main problem that you're trying to solve? Is that bad deals, not knowing what you're going into? To give me one pain point, do see this as most evident and repeating?

Ryan Schmidt

It's really just the lack of knowledge in itself. There's a lot of artists out there that think, I will get to a certain point where I can just give the responsibility of knowing the business to one of my teammates. I can give it to my label. I can give it to my manager. Can give it to my lawyer. And we've heard time and time again all these horror stories that can happen when you put all your trust in... another team member. You we want artists to also understand this business because yes, it's complicated, but we feel that if we structure this curriculum in a fun way that now artists can actually take more control. Of their career. So everything from what is copyrights to how to collect royalties to how to work with collaborators, that's all types of things that are covered so that you don't have to worry about going into a recording studio and feeling stupid because you don't know what a split means.

Jakob

Think one of the biggest takeaways I had for the episode with Mike, not because the episode is about Mike today, but was his statement that he made about the future of artistry and who's sort of gonna do best. And he sort of took the ankle from Logic, who's a very holistic businessman as well. And I think if I'm summarizing Mike's point, and I might be paraphrasing it a bit too much, is the future of artistry will heavily... rely on artists taking business decisions and owning their business and not just be in the backseat of those decisions. And there's many reasons why and I fully support those statements but I think at the end of the day monetization is one of those things where people need to earn money and if they don't understand the business metrics or partner metrics or anything like that the possibility of making good business is less and you know the first place it's not that attractive statistically being in the business. Does that make sense?

Ryan Schmidt

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, I think that it's well summarized and I think that it's definitely true that the artists that will win in 2025 and further are the artists that do take control of their own career. That sets them up for the best outcomes, but also creates a foundation, has the name for a long, sustainable music career.

Jakob

So what was it that sparked the frustration in the problem that was strong enough to you actually start doing this?

Ryan Schmidt

I think it's really a culmination of everything that both Mike and I have seen in this music business. Being a frustrated artist myself, 10 years ago, I was at this crossroads of signing bad deals and feeling like I just didn't know where to go next. This app would have been the reassurance I needed that... Sometimes it's not necessarily what you're doing, but it's how you're implementing the knowledge that you have. You know, that was for me, what Mike has seen on the management side and what has, what... has been the makings of a successful artist's career and where artists have veered and that's been the end of their career, we basically want to take all the pain that we've suffered collectively in our careers and help artists avoid these common things that we see time and time again.

Jakob

I had a really interesting conversation with a startup in Estonia a week ago. I was there visiting Toddling Music Week and they have this company working on a legal side of access careers and that sparked a conversation that I myself thought was interesting because I was leading it and that is sort of playing devil's advocate on the general narrative about you know access being taken advantage of which I do believe happens a lot so I'm not against that statement but a really interesting nuance is also that the partners, the labels, that supposedly, oftentimes being the bad guys are also just trying to make a living. So do you have any thoughts about that dynamic? So beyond the knowledge, which I fully support, but the dynamics between, let's say, independent companies and the artists and that so-called narrative of someone's winning, someone's losing. Can you comment on your thoughts on that?

Ryan Schmidt

Yeah, I think that it's a common narrative that it's artist versus label or it's artist versus the industry. And that's not necessarily true. I think that the best careers are ones where the artist finds a way to take an active role in their careers and find true partners, business partners for themselves. There are plenty of artist label, artist publisher, artist manager relationships that have been very successful. Because both understood that game. I do think that we tend to see almost a after the fact hindsight, you know, postmortem often where so and so happened and it must have been because of this. It could have been a series of different things. And yeah, certainly there are greedy deals out there and greedy actors. But I think on the whole, I like to think that generally people are trying to work together and trying to win.

Jakob

Thanks.

Jakob

Yeah.

Jakob

Yeah, that's definitely also my perception. And I think that also comes into like the education because I that can also be really, really dangerous. The uninformed positioning about where who's winning, who's losing and the dynamics in between. I would... to many degrees argue that if I look at my label friends, the independent environment and my ATSIS friends, who generally speaking is working the hardest and trying to support the other, it's definitely the labels. I think oftentimes the ATSIS, you know, just, you know... assuming that they're, you know, being owed everything. And that's not a comment in general. I'm just saying there's nuances to that view. That's also really important. But that also, if they understood the role, the income model, the realities of their partners, I think that could also result to less of a conflict and less of a narrative that can be, you know, maybe very, creating distance between the industry and the assets, guess.

Ryan Schmidt

Yeah, I think that what you touched on is a really important thing. It's about, it's really the expectation gap between what an artist thinks a label partnership is versus what it actually is. There are plenty of artists that believe, because this is the dream that's been sold to them since they were a kid, is that they're gonna sign this deal and then this label team is going to package that up. And serve it to their fans and they're going to ride off to the sunset and be wildly successful. The artists that do really well in label deals understand that the day they sign that record deal is really just the day that they've now entered the major leagues, right? Their work isn't done. They're still the captain of their team and they have to work harder than anybody else. If you sign, if you were professional football player and you sign to the NFL imagine being like well I signed my deal so like now I don't have to go to practice I don't have to play in the games no like it's still on you so I think that's where I see a lot of artists get frustrated because they've worked so hard to get to that moment and they think that's the end-all be-all but that's really getting your foot in the door to now play the next highest game

Jakob

Yeah, and I think that's really key. And I haven't myself operated on like a large level on the industry side. I am more like a bystander and I work a lot with startups from technology, which is sort of my thing. But I have definitely been with the upcoming assets. I've worked with that for years and years and years. And I think that information gap is the hardest thing to work on both sides of the table. I think this is less so a thing in many parts of the world where the entrepreneurial spirit is very evident in culture like in America where you know that's a part of ingrained in the culture but in Nordics where I'm from I think a lot of times I've seen my friends and colleagues who have been sitting at the end of the table where people get signed even like small deals and I just take a backseat because they don't understand really what goes into it like the creativity that they have is a part of the journey

Ryan Schmidt

Mm-hmm.

Jakob

Reality, you know, there's so much more and I often times just look at my own entrepreneurs story like No one's gonna outwork me and want this more and you know, if the ship is going down one point I'll you know, I'll be the one to find a solution and yes, there's partnerships I also have a board also have investors by the end of the day They bought into my vision, but I need to carry it all the way And I think that's a part of education as well. Like one of the things that I'm trying to educate founders here is this like that illusion you might've bought into on whatever media you've seen what this journey is, it's probably not true. Like it's, know, the hard-lived, you know, I'm only 32, I feel much, much older. 12 years of being an entrepreneur has really taken a toll on me. And that is how it should feel really, statistically speaking, because that is the journey. And that communication is super important for me and that's why I'm doing this podcast. You know, that's what I'm also recognizing in a part of your journey, I guess. But beyond, beyond sort of the misunderstandings and gaps between artists and the partners, what are other issues that you see that, you know, could be addressed by having a foundation app?

Ryan Schmidt

I think one is just not knowing how to spend your time as an artist. I mean, there's plenty of things to do and independent artists have never needed to do more than they currently do. You've got to be an artist, a producer, a songwriter, and also a social media expert, know, content machine and all this other stuff and handle your business.

Jakob

Okay.

Ryan Schmidt

On one side, it's very freeing and liberating that you can reach a global audience with a microphone in your laptop. On the other side, you have to do so much more than what an artist maybe had to do 30 years ago because they would have probably found a label who was going to help invest in the development side of that. So that's another part of the micro lessons is we understand that it's a lot of work and there's a lot of hats you have to wear as an artist.

Jakob

Mm.

Ryan Schmidt

And we want you to have this information, but we never want it to be at the detriment of the other things that you have to do. Right? If it was the difference between me sitting down and reading, you know, two hours of this massive book on the music business versus recording and mixing and mastering my album, I'm going to choose the music making, I would think, almost nine times out of 10. We don't...

Jakob

Hmm.

Ryan Schmidt

Want the artist staff to make that decision. So if you are in between takes at your recording session and you fired up and you do a five minute lesson, you are still getting those reps in. And we hope that we are kind of cutting through the things that you don't necessarily need to know. We're hitting at the things that you need to know to be dangerous. You don't need to know this. You don't need to know this. You need to know exactly what you need to know and just, you know, just be good at that.

Jakob

Hmm. Yeah, if, know, just any person would be listening to those statements, one might think, oh, that will be over soon. Like, you know, bite size, know, music industry, how long can it take? But I know definitely that the music industry is, is fair more, far more complex than you want it to be. Uh, and there's so many nuances. So what do you think, like, is a journey with a person with this app? How, how long would they spend to go through the basics and, and sort of get to a place where they're informed enough?

Ryan Schmidt

We envision that this is a continuing educational journey, that there is no end, because just like Mike and I, I've been in this music industry for 20 years, and there is no end to that journey because the industry continually changes and evolves. 20 years ago when we're still buying downloads, somebody's like, think I know everything about the industry and now we've switched to streaming. Everything is constantly changing and evolving. And what we found, we're in closed private beta right now. Nobody has reached the end of what we currently have. And that's not because it's... There's just so much information in here, but it's really that we want people to focus on these lessons, come back to it, make it a practice. And they're doing that in conjunction with living their artist life. And we're going to continue to add more lessons as the industry changes and as more things we feel are necessary come in. And we don't see it. We don't see a world where like somebody reaches the end. But if they do reach the end, what it would be is, hey, You're killing it. Take a seat. We'll be right back with some more information because we just want to continue to add to it and provide as much value.

Jakob

They make sense and I think it's really, really needed. I definitely do struggle myself finding the truths and I think I've become fairly informed about my part of the music world, which is sort of Europe and sort of the normalities of that and how deals are structured and percentages and that kind of stuff. But I just need to cross over to just England, not part of the EU. That looks a bit different in America. That looks completely different. And then... the rest of the world. That's also the nuance, like there's so many different ways of doing it, different structures, different power dynamics. And all of that is going to be incredibly difficult to navigate. Do you believe that, maybe this is a loaded question, but like my experience with assets are that they... at large, I'm not trying to generalize everyone, prefer to express themselves creatively and have almost like a disdain towards the industry. And am I just becoming from my small bubble? But like that's a repeating tendency, not for everyone, but a good deal of people as artists that has that opinion. Is that something you experienced as well? And how would you sort of address that?

Ryan Schmidt

Yeah, we find that to be true just about every day that there's plenty of artists that think, I like to make music. I want to just focus 100 % on the creative side. And if you are somebody that only wants to do this as a hobby, all the power to you. Make music, play music, write music for the love of it and the joy of it and that's great. But if you are trying to make a living at this, you have no choice but to also focus on the business of that. There are so many different industries within the music industry. You've got the recorded music industry, the live touring industry, the publishing industry, the synchronization, film television industry, merchandising. There's so many different verticals. And arguably a well-rounded artist needs to least understand each one of those. So I think that artists don't really have the luxury if they're trying to make this their career. They don't have the luxury of not knowing that and just stick and just focusing on the art.

Jakob

One of my assumptions is that the way that young people discover music nowadays is different from just like five years ago, which also means that the popular artists that are sort of coming forth also have a more holistic approach to what it means to be an artist. Like, know, video is obviously a given. But branding and consistency and being present in a different way than just social media was. It's more like tapping into subcultures, that kind of stuff is like one of the most essential things as an artist. I don't know if that was a question, it's more, I see that things have changed with how artists are and how they interact to break through, which also means that the artist's profile will fundamentally change. Is that also what you guys see?

Ryan Schmidt

I definitely agree with that. And I see this, I represent artists that are at all stages of their careers and at all different ages. And the artists that have come up in the like TikTok era really seem to understand this piece of it. That it's not necessarily about how long you've been in this game and paying your dues. It's really about going out there and finding an audience and getting attention. And they're able to do that. A lot of them able to do that on their first song. And it's because we're in this age now where if you match great music with great engaging visuals, you're gonna find an audience, because that's just what the algorithm wants to do. It literally wants to show your content to somebody else.

Jakob

Mm.

Ryan Schmidt

So we've never had that opportunity before for some small artists that can just make music in their bedroom and make videos with their iPhone to be able to reach that global audience. Used to have to have a publicist and then you used to have to gain followers and it would only go out to the people that already followed you. And man, it's changed so much. So yeah, I think a lot of new independent artists are looking at this a lot more holistically.

Jakob

If you were to look at it from the art perspective, whatever that really means, do you think that, on a macro level, dilutes the artistic experience? That artists are pursuing it from different angles that is not purely just music and expression?

Ryan Schmidt

I could see that being an argument that we've lost focus on the music. And I think that for some artists, that's true. I think that some artists are better at the spectacle and better at content than the music. And they have okay music and they've got amazing content and they're winning. But I think it's a mistake to confuse what it really means to be an artist. Think a lot of... musicians that aren't succeeding today think that their creativity ends at the music. But no, if you are an artist, you have to have some idea of what this looks like and some visual identity outside of the music. And don't let your creativity end the second you finish recording or writing that song. Continue that into how you package that and how you deliver that to your audience.

Jakob

Yeah, I think a key thing is packaginging because, you know, still for most artists, the music is central for attention. And I think that's a really key word in all of this because yeah, there's retention on the video aspect of it or whatever you use in order to package music, but the retention needs to be their music as well in order to sustain into music career. I saw this a few years ago. I was working a lot in LA with... what do you call it? Autist music influencers kind of stuff where you can see that the conversion from their success on social media until the actual music was like minuscule because they built up a brand of like now we need to have followers and even though it was combined with their music, people follow them for different reasons than the music. So that alone, it does not equal success. I've worked with a few... music influencers, don't know how to categorize that, you know, with, you know, two to five million followers and they release a track and they, you know, blast social media out of it. And, know, all the algorithms like, no, we're not going to show that we're not going to show that because now, now you're not bringing the audience what they sort of bought into. And there's pretty much no conversion to the music. So having that fine line of being authentic through and through and not just your music, but the content is in continuation of creativity is very difficult. But at the end of the day, probably also where most successes in that space because it's one coherent storytelling is not separated.

Ryan Schmidt

It's so true. Mean, I have two perfect examples of a viral success that converts versus a viral success that doesn't convert. And one is from Mike himself in Logic. They had a clip of Seth MacFarlane singing a verse on one of Logic's songs, and that went viral on TikTok. And the virality was based around the music itself, right?

Jakob

Hmm.

Ryan Schmidt

Seth is singing the song. My God, he's got such a great voice. I can't wait to hear how that sounds on a Logic song. Let's go to Spotify and let's go listen to it. Obviously, the music itself was a big character in that piece of content and it converted very well because it was all based around the music.

Jakob

Mm.

Jakob

Hmm.

Ryan Schmidt

I've had clips where my music has been background music in some meme or something like that. And it's got millions and millions of plays, but my music wasn't central to whatever that video was. And I saw almost zero conversion to it because that wasn't the call to action, so to speak. It wasn't focused around the music. It was focused around that funny piece of content.

Jakob

What do you believe happens when artists are more empowered by knowledge and the holistic thinking of artistry is more adopted? What's going to happen to the dynamics of the industry?

Ryan Schmidt

I think that we are going to see an industry where a lot more artists, one, don't strive to sign record deals and publishing deals, that they know how to win and earn money on their own. But I also think that we're going to see artists that engage in better business practices and have more successful partnerships with those labels and publishers because they know dynamics, they know the game. That's our hope for Foundation is that we help usher in what is already the golden age for independent artists.

Jakob

I have a question that might be a bit of a stretch and I'm honestly just asking because I'm curious. When I have my sort of way into music, I came from a background as an athlete, but also have a quite heavy religious background where my relationship with alcohol and substance abuse was very different from my peers and... I was lucky enough to study at some of the best schools and conservatories in Europe. And a lot of my co-students were like already, you know, in the National Concerts Grammy winning award artists and had done really, really well. And sort of getting a snapshot into that industry of, know, substance abuse was difficult for me because it was not just on the students. It was also the teachers, the culture, the mentors, everything was intertwined. Do you believe that... education will address that? Is that purely a cultural thing? And sorry if it's left us in a question, but for me as an outsider in the access world, that's one of the things that concerns me the most if my kid right now would go into music.

Ryan Schmidt

It's a fair question and we do address the mental part of the music industry too in Foundation and that's something that we are looking to invest more time into. Some of these really tough conversations about depression, anxiety. Suicide, substance abuse, all of that is very prevalent in the music industry. It can be a very isolating place, especially for a solo artist. You are working on this dream sometimes by yourself for very long time and you're getting a lot of rejection. That is a difficult place. I'm very mindful that as a lawyer, artist and online educator, content creator. I'm kind of in this Bermuda triangle of substance abuse, depression and all that other stuff because the statistics are staggering in each one of those verticals that incredibly high mental health, depression, anxiety, suicide rates, drug, alcohol abuse. I think in the music industry in particular, we need to get away from this idea that's necessary. To be a rock star. And I think that we have gotten away from that in a good amount. I think that the 80s and 90s, that was the golden era of the rock stars destroying hotel rooms and just causing havoc wherever they went. But I do think that it is also very prevalent in industry parties and networking and everything else, that's kind of, you gotta be part of the scene. Yeah, I would love to see more conversations, more advocacy around that. And for somebody that would say the music industry isn't necessarily a safe place. I think that those concerns are well founded because that has proven to be true. But I think that's true for artists that have lost their way or artists that

Ryan Schmidt

Have don't have the right guidance and the right mentorship. I think that there's definitely plenty of individuals who are able to find success without that.

Jakob

Yeah. And I think also it's, know, as I see it, a quite positive direction. Do intend like industry conferences and, um, the last couple of conferences I was, um, we were a bunch of people that went to bed early and got up early and we were all young. I think, I think there's, there's a generation of that. That's also sort of dying a bit where, know, we're aware that, you know, we don't need to tap into what was and. I think there's just, know, generally speaking from a society level, recognition that's probably not the best idea. And also the power dynamics are shifting in favor of people who stand up for themselves most of the time, where that has been less possible before if you wanted to work in music. So I think from a societal level, that's moving towards that.

Ryan Schmidt

Mm-hmm.

Jakob

One question and I'm sorry if I'm staying too long in this particular segment, but for me, it's quite interesting is You talk about mental health and we got into substance abuse but one of the reasons why I see ads is not pursuing business is not having the mental capacity not really but like in the moment feel like they don't have capacity to other than just Coping with their creativity. So for example, they're struggling financially like Let me not, let me just do my thing. It's hard enough. Let me just be where I want to be. Or where alcohol maybe becomes a sort of a distraction from the reality of like, I didn't make any money on this tour, so let's least have a lot of fun and make it, remember this as a good thing, if that makes sense. So the mental capacity to tackle the hardships of learning and confronting the reality. Is often where this happens. It's a bit hard to explain, but do you think that's the limitation for people learning? Is that they just need to stay in the bubble because it becomes too overwhelming?

Ryan Schmidt

I do think there are plenty of artists, I was that myself at one point, mentally, that think that the only way that they can pull out creativity is to be really deep and invested in their emotions and feelings and sometimes in negative emotions and feelings. That's where creativity comes from.

Jakob

Yeah.

Ryan Schmidt

That'd be like saying, I can only work out when I really feel like it, right? To get stronger and to be better, that has to be these certain conditions must be met. The truth is, it's just like any other skill, that you can tap into that and you can grow that skill without having to feel that every single time that deeply.

Jakob

Mm.

Ryan Schmidt

And I think that it's I think that pain is a really great motivator and can be a really great creative spark. I just worry about people that rely on it solely to be creatively. And I also as an artist. You know, I think a lot about differentiating who you are as a human versus who you are as somebody that. Makes something artistic. Like, you my artist name was Ryan Schmidt, which is also my real name. And it was really hard for me to differentiate if somebody said they didn't like the music. I associated that with I hate Ryan. I think he's a terrible person. And that's certainly a trap that artists can fall into is understanding that these are two completely different things. I might think you're a lovely person. I just don't like X type of music.

Jakob

It's really interesting.

Jakob

Bye.

Jakob

I'm kind of... I'm a bit sad about the current state of arts history, let's just be honest. And I have a hard time seeing where we'll get to a point where it feels... equals between what people put into this with the amount of skill they have and what they can get from it. Do you think that dynamic can change? Do you think that there's going to be a world where artists can actually get paid what they're worth? Is that something I'm moving towards or is that never going to happen?

Ryan Schmidt

Well, I think it depends on what metrics you're looking at and where you're trying to get paid from. I see artists all the time that are making really good money on music, and some of them are making really good money just exclusively on streaming platforms. I think it's a mistake to focus on the per stream rate. I think that

Ryan Schmidt

I think that model is just one of many different monetization models that an artist can tap into. But even then, I would say it doesn't limit what you're capable of doing. It does mean that you need to find a larger audience to do well. But I see artists that are making insane money that are able to record from their bedroom, have never once had to go tour on the road or any type of crazy overhead expenses. They just record. They throw it up on Spotify, on Apple Music, and find this global national audience. But I do think that... from a consumer perspective, I do think that we have devalued music in a pretty significant way. That would, writing that ship would also lead to artists, producers, sign writers getting paid more equitably and fairly. I do think that there is something fundamentally wrong with a consumer paying $9.99 a month and getting the entire history of recorded music at their fingertips. You know, it's all you can eat for $9.99. And you don't see that in any other industry, really. You know, if you go to Netflix, you're paying $20 for their library, and you go somewhere else and you're playing for their library. In streaming music, you're paying something and you're getting the entirety of what is out there. And I think that the value is too low. I think that consumers have been taught over the last 25 years that music should be free or near free. Once the

Ryan Schmidt

Legal downloading came in, you know, this shift was it should, we should just get it for free. And then when streaming came, well, we should just pay a few dollars for it. And we haven't been able to get back to that place of no, you know, we should actually pay some serious money for music that we love and we support. I don't know what the right answer is there because I think that streaming is here to stay. Think consumers really like it.

Jakob

Hmm.

Ryan Schmidt

But maybe it's that those streaming models start charging more. And I think that artists find other opportunities to monetize, whether it's direct to fan, touring, merchandising, what have you.

Jakob

Yeah, but that also shines through, I definitely agree that the consumer aspect, I don't think any individual, but on a macro level has really contributed to this difficult financial situation. But it's all through the industry as well, like having artists that are willing to do whatever, play whatever stage and pay themselves to get there. That's sort of creating the problem. One of the things that I like about Norway where I live right now, I'm from Denmark originally, is that The artist's renomination side of live music and especially corporate events is really, good. You can, as an upcoming artist, actually, you know, if you get it selling, make a living as a pretty person just playing live corporate events, small festivals. And what they have really nailed there, but it's also because the country is so rich is that they have.

Ryan Schmidt

Mm-hmm.

Jakob

As organizations together in Norway decided that this is the price and anyone who does not pay that price will be outed. And I think there's definitely downsides to that. Think there's, you know, lot of organizations take it too far. But the reality that Norway together as an industry, industries or different genres have very publicly stated like this is what people need to get paid and you will be outed if you don't do it.

Ryan Schmidt

Mmm.

Jakob

Has actually brought a lot of positive things about being an artist. Like I have a lot of my network that, you know, I would say are mid-size artists and in most cases would not be able to make a living of music, but can actually, you know, maybe not live well, but sustain themselves. So I think there's beauty in that, but it also comments that you can also, maybe not on a global level or big countries, but that there are also ways of addressing value that...

Ryan Schmidt

Mm-hmm.

Jakob

Also comes from the industry and the artist taking a stance on it. And obviously that's really difficult to solve on a big level outside of a rich small country. But I do love that there are movements towards that as well.

Ryan Schmidt

Yeah, well said. And I would love to see something like that take place in America because what artists are getting paid for club shows is pretty similar to what they're getting paid 40, 50 years ago for club shows. Not, it hasn't really moved a whole lot.

Jakob

No. So what's going to happen beyond Foundation App? Like what things do you believe is going to happen in industry to make this a better place to be an artist? Like knowledge is one thing. Are there other things you're seeing that must happen a part of that ecosystem to make this better?

Ryan Schmidt

Yeah, I think that we're seeing a lot more label level tools develop so that artists can really own their fan data and connect with their fans. The way that I think about any social media platform, and I will include the streaming. In there too because they're all algorithm based is you are renting their audience anytime you gain any type of traction on any of those places. You don't own that audience. They might be your followers, they might be your subscribers, but that app could go away tomorrow and we've seen that happen time and time again. Really the goal should be to convert them to an audience that you can actually own, whether that's an email list or a texting club or something else where you can always consistently get in touch with them and have direct communication. And I think that. We're seeing more and more of that where you can maybe it's an exchange for a pre-save or an email. You can get a link or download to a song earlier or something like that. But now you know, OK, I know Jacob's email address. Know where he lives. And if I ever want to play a show in his hometown, I know how to get in touch with him. That's tremendously valuable versus just looking at your Instagram, TikTok analytics and saying, cool, I have a follower in Norway.

Jakob

Yeah, the community-based thing is something that I truly believe in and also owning that data. And for me, this sounds super simple, I'm not a big music fan per se. I love the music industry and I love creativity, but music for me has always been less interesting than those two, even though I've studied music for most of my life. And I have very simple music taste. And I don't fall out of the artist. And the way that my brain works, I don't even know the lyrics to my favorite songs. Like I'm pretty simple like that. It's very different. But that has like this Norwegian artist that I'm sort of one of my favorite. Another credible Eaver, like in taste, she's called Astrid S. And I just love her music. And there's only one person I follow on Instagram broadcast, and that's her. And just that small thing, and I know it's not a lot, for me that's what keeps me interested. Just today she posted that, you know, I'm not quite sure about my pro float picture, which was like a weird picture. And the reason why I'm saying this is like, just that small connection, which really isn't anything, for me creates that new level of value and it doesn't take more than that. And if the music industry can just at that level,

Ryan Schmidt

Mm-hmm.

Jakob

Adopt listeners into engagement. We can see a huge change in monetization and fandom. And it does need to be more than that, but the technology needs to provide a seamless experience to get there. Because as consumers, are very, very used to having things easy. And that's the whole metric. And that's where the music industry, especially in the West, has not succeeded yet, in my opinion. They have not succeeded at scale. And repeatedly creating that seamless user experience from, know exactly who I am as an accessor to the platform and you know how to get me in front of your communication. And I haven't really seen where that's gonna come from as of yet. What do guys sort of experience with that? Have you dabbled in it or see like tendencies?

Ryan Schmidt

I think that there is some fickleness to the algorithms. And I think that's one problem with this is that those algorithms are always changing. I think that what worked yesterday might not necessarily work today. And these are, they're giving best guesses of what they think people are gonna wanna see. And taste can change and preferences can change and. You know, I think that it's hard to try to find the right words, but it's hard to build tools when the way to hook new listeners and the rules of that game change so rapidly. I mean, you can you can probably see a dozen YouTube channels that exist and they might just exist on here's everything you know about the Instagram algorithm, everything you know about the YouTube algorithm, and they can make a new video. Every week and say, this has changed and here's what you need to do now. And it would kind of be true. I think that's a tough place to chase. But I think, too, if we go back to the basics, I think people also want to move away from that. Once the algorithm has served me up, my new favorite artist. Now I kind of just want to sit back and maybe just engage with them.

Jakob

Thank Mm-hmm.

Jakob

Mm.

Ryan Schmidt

Whether it's in a Discord channel or it's email or it's some other place and get away from that grind for a second.

Jakob

Absolutely, and I believe there's a pretty big consensus between the guests that I have on and my own opinion of this. And that is the pushback has already been happening for years towards social media and that sort of exposure and how that works. And people are seeking engagement on deep level and creating a deeper relationship with whatever you're consuming or who you're relating to. And I see a lot of promise in that. Where I'm still, there's a lot to be had is like how to do it. I don't feel like the solutions are still there yet, but I also think when it comes back to education, I don't think artists are using the methods that are available either. Like it's, know, it's a catch 22 to some degree, you can't, know. And really ask fans to be engaged on platforms that people don't use or buy into things that ATSIS and ART are utilizing at the full. So guess it comes back to sort of ATSIS dedication, really. Like, you need to engage maybe differently than you used to. And if you are engaging as a part of your nature, you need to know how to be certain places where you can monetize that and make a living from it. And it all comes down to dedication. And the ignorance is really difficult. One of the things that I experienced a lot with my entrepreneurship is I'm oftentimes, as a venture studio, we own many different startups and I'm really good at doing like saves, like, okay, something is burning, I need to save it. And I usually do that if that's, know, getting a investor in the last moment for a company or, you know, something's going wrong and try to save that. And that really comes from me being quite, I do a lot of self-education. I do lot of research.

Jakob

I do lot of, you know, try to be, contextually understand where I'm in. And that's what equips me to do those sayings. That's what it equips me to do that partnership last minute or get that sale that we need. Uh, just because I know enough, um, to know how to navigate when things are really tight. And I think artists need to be able to do that as well. Like, okay, this is happening. I saw something about this show in two weeks. How do I, how to make sure that I engage people and they come. How to make sure that I get the extra thing out of the show that I wouldn't usually do if I didn't know how to do it.

Ryan Schmidt

Mm-hmm.

Jakob

And that is how you build a career. Yeah. Hmm. Well, Ryan, amazing. I really want to applaud you and Mike and your extra co-founder for doing this with Foundation. Think it's super important. And we'll only touch upon a few things this talk about ancestry, but it's the whole industry. And education is one of the things that I'm the most bullish upon.

Ryan Schmidt

Mm-hmm.

Jakob

Is very different than mine where I'm really trying to take it from an academic, almost macro level perspective, but it needs to be tackled on both ends. So where do you see this going? Where are you gonna take this company? How do envision this happening and being sort of expanded to the masses?

Ryan Schmidt

Well, we are planning to launch very soon. Like I said, we're in private beta right now and we've submitted to the app store and we're going to be live any day now, which we're really excited about. And we are adopting a freemium model, which there's plenty of value that anybody that downloads the app can get immediately. And there will be a certain number of lessons that you are able to take without actually joining the subscription and joining the community. But what I see the future of Foundation being is kind of the go-to for music business education, where people don't buy that All You Need to Know about the Music Business book, or they don't do this course. They are spending time on the app because in 10 minutes, five, 10 minutes a day, they're getting everything they need. And I also see it as also a place, a community. Where different thought leaders within the music business are also providing information and value. Know, here's everything you need to about publishing from the head of Sony ATV. You know, here's everything you need to know about management from Mike or legal from me. And I see a lot more curated lessons from some of the industry's top players.

Jakob

Amazing. Well, I'm looking forward to downloading it and play around with it I believe there's so much more that I need to learn in this industry and really helps me navigate this space as an entrepreneur as well. Ryan, thank you and I wish you good luck. Thank you for being on.

Ryan Schmidt

Thank you so much for having me.