Decoding India's Music Market: From Copyright to Creativity

We're no longer just Bollywood. We're not just one film industry. We're actually multiple film industries and it's all film music, which again isn't true. Today, currently where things stand, India has a huge thriving non-film and independent music ecosystem. All our movies are no longer musicals as the West likes to describe them, right? It's not just song and dance. We don't necessarily have 8-10 songs in a film soundtrack anymore. Movies have also become shorter. You're not seeing three hour long films coming out of Bollywood and I feel all of that has also given a big opportunity to a lot of non-film independent music to thrive.

I am privileged to have incredible minds on this podcast and Priyanka is one of those. She breaks down the music industry in India, the history, where it's going and how it's relevant for part of my world, which is primarily the music industry in the West. And there's so many things I didn't know that I should have known and now you get to know. Hi guys and welcome back to Sound Connections podcast. Today I feel very lucky. Priyanka, welcome to the studio. Thank you for having me. I was actually a bit starstruck, Priyanka, because you wrote me after Beat Dab episode out with Morgan and Andrew and you said hi and I'm like, is Priyanka writing me? Whoa, that's amazing. And we agreed for you to be on the podcast, so welcome.

Well, thank you. It's an absolute pleasure. I love the Beat Dab episode. I'm also incredibly fond of Andrew and Morgan and their journeys. It was only fair that we had a chat as well. You have a really interesting story and you are, all the places I can read about it, one of the foremost entertainment lawyers in India and you've really had your impact in the West as well. So we were chatting a bit back and forth and we agreed to talk about India, talk about you and talk about the legal aspects because most of our listeners are from the West and we're trying to sort of understand more and venture into other territories that I come from. So, but before we do that, let's hit the scene.

Priyanka, who are you and what do you do? Well, the 10 second introduction would be I am an entertainment lawyer and I work with a lot of stakeholders in the business, but you and I both know there's a lot more to it than just that. Well, for your listeners who follow the podcast on this episode, I am Priyanka Kimani. I run one of the most well-regarded entertainment law firms based out of India called Kimani & Associates. I started my journey almost over a decade ago now and very little to do with entertainment. I think the, I do have a background in, in the entertainment business in a whole different lifetime. I used to write for film and TV in India and dabbled in a bunch of odd jobs for the lack of a better word whilst being on set. And this is again a little pre-social media and definitely before India saw so much liberalization in the

entertainment sector, right? This is much before any OTT services, social media networks, DSPs entered India. So I feel kind of privileged. I feel looking back at my first interactions within the entertainment media industry that I was able to interact with the, with the business at a day and age before FDI was relaxed in India and we saw so many foreign, different foreign players. So I feel privileged also because I've been able to see that transition from where we were early days to, you know, slowly being liberalized, seeing a lot of foreign stakeholders coming into where we stand currently as an entertainment market. My role has been, I've started my practice as a litigation attorney and I run a significant practice in the entertainment business. A large part of our clientele is talent across film, TV and music in India. And I think for anyone who's familiar with India, they'll tell you that film and music are intrinsically linked. Last year, because of our movies, we've grown

up watching our music before we listened to it. And I think that sort of trickles into the way the practice has also shaped up. So we'll see a lot of talent that's front facing as well as behind the camera. And I think it's an interesting mix of showrunners, filmmakers, content creators, actors. And then on the music side, I feel so enormously grateful to, for having seen the transition that we, we've been able to see and to where we are today. So when it comes to music, it is a big part of my specialty in India, mainly because music for most territories is obviously a complicated subject. And India has had its spare share of having to, having had to navigate a bunch of different issues around the copyright law, legislation, and a lot of regulatory statutory issues. I have been at the forefront of a lot of these issues as we see them today, mainly when the copyright law was amended in 2012, almost the beginning of my

career. And then in the last over 10 years, how we've seen it affect industry practice, different judgments, how they've impacted the course of the music business as it has evolved in India. So my role really is to go in between all of these different moving parts, work for different stakeholders. And just one last bit is as, as India has started to become a more and more prominent market, I don't, I don't use the word emerging market quite consciously, because I feel it has evolved. It is a growth market, if at all anything. And so I feel in that context, a lot of my time is spent working with non-Indian entities and individuals that are looking at navigating India. And a lot of it involves handholding, you know, talent, their managers, agents, oftentimes working with founders, C-suite leaders who might have India as an important part of their expansion or growth strategy, but need help understanding nuances, culturally what one should

be mindful of, what are the local business practices that might differ from Western markets. So we often play the bridge between a lot of these foreign markets in India. I'm going to ask you a very simple question that's probably going to be very hard to answer, but for anyone who really doesn't understand the Indian market, what is the biggest difference between, let's say, the Indian music industry and, let's say, the American music industry? What are going to people feel, find the biggest differences?

I think there's about three differences, if I have to narrow it down, right? Number one, it's, we're no longer just Bollywood. I think the first blush impression when you talk of India and you talk of our music industry, even seems to think that it's, A, that it's Bollywood and B, that it's all, by that logic, Hindi, which is the national language, but that's not true at all, simply because we're not just one film industry, we're actually multiple film industries and the others are also as prominent, if not more than Bollywood, right? For example, Punjabi film and music industry, that's its own different universe. In the south, you've got four prominent film and deep music industries and Tamil and Telugu are one of the more better known industries world over. So that's the first myths that I think everyone has about India, that we're all just Bollywood. Number two is that we are mainly, again, just coming,

taking point number one forward is that it's all film music, which again isn't true. I think up until a few years ago, maybe film music was more dominant compared to non-film or independent music, but I feel today, currently where things stand, India has a huge thriving non-film and independent music ecosystem. There's a variety of reasons for it, but I think one of the key reasons is that even the way our films are made or consumed has changed so much. For lack of a better example, Bollywood itself doesn't necessarily, all our movies are no longer musicals as the West likes to describe them, right?

It's not just song and dance. We don't necessarily have 8, 10 songs in a film soundtrack anymore. Movies have also become shorter. You're not seeing three hour long films coming out of Bollywood. So, and I feel all of that has also given a big opportunity to a lot of non-film independent music to thrive. And of course, there's a variety of other reasons as well. So that's number two, that we're not only film music or Bollywood, we're also big independent music industry. And number three, which I think surprises a lot of people, and that itself can be a separate episode, is that fortunately or unfortunately for a lot of the market, even today, we, okay, let me rephrase that. Actually, number three would be that for the most part, historically, India was a works made for higher market, which means that a lot of the copyright is often, especially as far as some of the historic catalog or legacy catalog is concerned, is owned by one single entity. Yeah. Okay. And think about it, right? Because we've been such,

we were a very dominant film industry. The producer would commission the music composer, director, and then in turn, pass on those rights to the record label. So for a lot of the catalog, it's the record label that controls 100% of the rights, both master and publishing. It's only now because of a lot of the growth that we've seen in the independent music ecosystem that you have people understanding what publishing means or copyright ownership means, and you start seeing bifurcation. But when we look at a lot of the past catalog, it's often one entity that controls it. And even today, a lot of the film market tends to be works made for higher. So I feel those are the three key distinguishing factors when it comes to the Indian music market to bear in mind. Wow. Okay. I have a question. So help me understand what happens in a scenario where, let's say a songwriter composer does not have their own rights and the company owns it. What happens from a macro environment? Is that there's less

Motivation to become a songwriter or is just the financial surroundings worsened? Like what's the consequences of that old model? I think that's interesting, right? I feel there's a couple when I think of it. The first one is that it becomes very, very cost heavy upfront, because as creators, as authors, as artists, as playback singers, everyone's just used to then asking for upfront fees. Yeah.

Right. So I want that big check if I, and I'm saying as I grow in my career also as talent, right? So I think it all boils down to, okay, fine. Then just my fee is going to be what it is because psychologically, I don't, I, A, I haven't seen a lot of future income or recurring income. And B, I just feel, you know, given the complexities of the Indian ecosystem, they're just, they feel more comfortable that, hey, let me just get this fee upfront. So then I can go on to doing other things. And then I'll let someone else take care of it. So I feel that's one big effect of what it does.

The other is, I think, again, a lot of them then just start relying more on their income from anything but music. So that means, you know, your, your life shows become important. Touring becomes important. You're doing branded gigs becomes important. Your endorsements, your appearances, which also affects those who not necessarily are on stage or on camera, right? I mean, you and I know enough songwriters are probably fantastic, but need not have a career being in front of the camera. So how it starts to affect their, their income and, you know, just how their revenue streams might work. And in my experience, I've noticed that most of them perhaps don't realize it during the active years of their career. It's only much later that you start looking into these aspects where you want to evaluate, you know, what does your publishing look like? What is your income from, you know, from the music that you've created over the past few years? What is that looking like?

And then I think the third most current effect, just given the environment that we're in is when it comes to catalog acquisitions, right? It's for those, for that reason that I feel the good side is that if you're looking at acquiring catalog, you're probably dealing with one single entity that owns master and publishing. But then the flip side is that, you know, there's really very little to do when it comes to buying out writer's share or publishing that is controlled by songwriters. So I feel those are the three sort of high level areas in which I think it affects the local industry. This podcast focuses a lot on entrepreneurship and innovators. And, you know, oftentimes there's a lot of financial incentive for founders to have an exit at one point. And that sort of can, in many cases of successful artists, writers, producers, and creatives in general, when you own IP right, and you've been successful over many, many years, there can happen an exit, an acquisition of your piece of a catalog, which you can say it's comparable to a founder's exit of a company. But if you don't own

That, you know, you maybe don't experience that. Yeah, it's an interesting, interesting dynamic. But you say that is this still the prevalent way of doing it? Is it changing? Like what's the status right now? I think luckily, luckily for everyone, it's changing and it's changing quite rapidly. A large part of the reason is because we've, again, got such a dominant non-fem independent ecosystem that's evolving. You've got almost every single global service that's present in India. There's, you know, there's, I think distribution has become so prevalent. And I think in a big way, we do have some of the distribution services to thank for, for this current ecosystem and the way we see it today. I think for the first time, it made a lot of creators in India realize that, wait a minute, there is an environment in which I could create music and retain ownership of it. It was refreshing when it happened a few years ago.

And today I think it's almost to a great extent in the non-film world, the norm that I don't necessarily have to part with ownership of my music or that, you know, everyone's talking about songwriting splits, talking about publisher share. You do now have publishing also as a separate, distinct revenue stream being recognized, being looked at. So I still feel, you know, to a certain degree, it's, there's a lot of education as far as keeping up with Western trends and Western market practices that has already happened. And then there are areas, for example, publishing, right, where I think there's just the right amount of movement on ground now. So hopefully in about five or 10 years, we'd probably see the industry where it should be. But to your point about founders and founders seeing the exit, I think we're very happy having worked with a lot of the creators that are popular right now in helping them set up their label businesses, their publishing entities, you know,

They're all artist-led, celebrity-led, but hopefully we'll see those beautiful founder exits that they read us. Hmm. I think it's like, especially on a macro level, that's just important. It's important for the whole sort of thing moving on in the industry. But as far as I sort of, I can understand it all, it sounds like a sum plus development from the whole industry. So again, if you talk about, let's say the Western Hemisphere or just the global hemisphere within music, everything is growing.

Maybe the majors are growing slower than the independent sector, but they're still both growing. Is that the same thing with India that these big powerhouses, they're still growing, but the independents and creators and people who retain their own rights, they're growing much faster. What's the environment there? I think it's a mix of both. I think there's a lot of, you're right, there's a lot of new independent labels that are being set up. And I think they're seeing a phenomenal amount of success. But I also see that, and it's a trend that once they've had a certain growth, they've had a certain amount of success, they do realize that we probably would benefit from having some sort of a relationship with a major because it gives you that strategic impetus that they need at a certain point in their growth cycle. And that's why I say that I see a bit of both. For example, look at the current success story with Def Jam India, right? And they've got Hanuman Kind who's obviously breaking all sorts of records that we've seen out of the country in the recent past.

You've got AP Dhillon, again, who's signed to a public record. So I feel, you know, you've got Diljeet who's distributed by another major or a king. So I feel in directly, indirectly, there's some sort of relationship with a major label ecosystem. But it always, almost always has started out maintaining complete independence, starting your own shop, putting out your music on your own. A lot of them will start using one of the DIY distribution services under their own label, grow it, see significant success. And then when it comes to that next big jump is when they feel that we're better off having some sort of relationship with a global entity. And I think there's a variety of reasons for that as well. And everyone wants to have that collaboration. Everyone wants to tap into markets outside of their own home territory.

And I think one of the peculiar things about India is that India also has one of the most prominent and largest diasporas outside of India, right? You've got North America, you've got UK, you've got Australia, New Zealand. These have also almost always been very strong pockets for the Indian population outside of the local territory of India. And I feel for those reasons, a lot of artists are now, thanks to data and, you know, access to a variety of functionality, able to see that, look, there's an opportunity for me to even cater to these audiences. And I think for that scale, for that big jump, for that outreach is where they feel that I've done it to a certain stage of my own, but I could benefit from a strategic partner.

Yeah, what I read about your story, as much as I can find, it really seems like you've really worked your way up. It's not because you've come from like, this position of you had everything served, you really worked your way up to a place of being so privileged in your position that you are now. Thank you. But what is it that, so when you take these positions, for example, you're the board member of SongTrader, which is quite an amazing feat. Thank you. What is the value that you bring to the table there? Besides your legal aspects and your knowledge, I just want to understand sort of how you bring the value of your territory into some of these Western companies. I think, first of all, thank you very much, Yakov. I know it's been an interesting journey, to say the very least, but I think one of the big learnings that I've had over a decade is, at some point, I think the kind of learnings that you have and the way you've seen the business evolve

Really becomes territory agnostic. And it's something that you can apply across the board. To a bunch of different areas of the entertainment business, right? And I think for me, one of the biggest strengths that I have is that I've always been able to take a more commercial business affairs approach to entertainment, which I think is need of the hour, especially in a territory like India. And I say this to a lot of, you know, fellow listeners as well.

And I think when, especially when it comes to lawyers, I feel the perception is that, okay, you've, you know, you're just going to fight it out. It's about being super aggressive. And, you know, no, it's my way or the highway. But really, in entertainment, a good lawyer, a good negotiator is someone who's going to cut you a commercially sound deal, right? I have clients who reach out to me, even today on agreements that we've done about eight, 10 years ago and say, oh, my goodness, I look back at it. And I thought that we hadn't covered something because, you know, times have changed. Technology has changed. And they're like, it was there. It was well thought of.

And I think that's really the success. And it's not necessarily something that's limited by virtue of territory. I think so long as you have a commercial bent of mind, whilst being cognizant of what the legal position is, what you feel comfortable taking, uh, being mindful of, okay, these are my boundaries, but how do I best serve the business objectives that we have? And really, whether you're a talent, whether you're a company, I think so long as you have somebody that's being able to advise keeping commercial interests in mind. Um, that's really the key, isn't it? That's what we're all looking for. And the last thing you want is having, um, again, it's something that I think lawyers have, uh, unfortunately get, lawyers unfortunately get thrown in the bus for quite often, um, is, you know, just sort of being that clog in the wheel for lack of a better term, right? I very often overhearn as well. And, um, I have the, the reaction is, but why are we involving lawyers? Let's just get it done.

Um, and I think we worked very hard to try and break that reputation because we're not here to, no one benefits by being a clog in the system, right? You're, you're there to facilitate, to help people navigate, uh, issues, navigate relationships. And I feel especially as a commercial lawyer, that's something that you've got to bear in mind. Look, when you, um, at the start of the conversation, you also talked about that you help clients sort of navigate the complexities of industry in India, maybe even the cultural aspects. So, so when you look, let's say from an entrepreneur who is interested in having a presence in India, what is it that they, they might meet that they're not aware of? Well, what is it they need to help clients navigate in?

So many things, but, um, I'm smiling because I feel that India is, you know, once, like I said, one size doesn't fit all. But I think, um, well, language to a certain degree, right? And I don't say this, uh, disrespectfully to anyone from India, I guess we're an English speaking, uh, nation. Uh, I get asked this all the time from Western clients that, um, you know, uh, is the language of communication English? It very much is our contracts are in English, our courts for the large part, our, uh, English speaking courts, our pleadings are in English. That being said, when I mean language, I think there's sometimes, um, in my experience, a gap in communication. We're trying to say the same thing, but maybe the terminology here is slightly different than it might be in your local market.

And I think this is true of any new territory that you're trying to do business in. So that's definitely one area where I would, I end up, uh, I think playing, it's literally trying to bridge that gap, saying, no, you're both saying the same thing, just using different terms for it. Um, and that often comes as a relief to both parties. Uh, the other is, I think definitely culturally, uh, this is, you know, small things, for example, I think there's a certain, um, you know, sometimes people like to wait and talk, whereas, uh, you know, if you're talking about certain other Western markets, you might just say, oh, let's hop onto a Zoom or, you know, this could have been an email. Uh, but I feel there's, there's a certain deference, uh, to, you know, waiting in person and putting faces to names and seeing, um, what that, what that, you know, what culturally that means for people.

So I feel that's, that's one thing to also bear in mind. Uh, yeah, outside of that, I think it's, um, you know, India is known for its hospitality. So I think people love to, uh, be given a chance to show that to anybody. So you'll see a lot of hosting, a lot of wanting to, you know, welcome people, invite people. And I feel sometimes it's also important for someone wanting to do business to get a feel of that. Hmm. Yeah, it's definitely, I've experienced in my own body. So, uh, my partner at my venture studio, he's, he's Indian, has been in Norway for two, two years. And actually, right before this call, I was talking with one of our Indian tech teams that we have in one of our companies. And, and for me, I'm, I'm Scandinavian, but I'm also, um, very, even though I'm a podcast host, I'm actually very, um, I don't, I don't use a lot of words normally.

So for example, uh, the best question for me is a yes, no question. So ask me a question, I say yes or I say no. Um, but at least with a lot of my Indian colleagues, the, the whole context around what you say is, is really important. Uh, and also sort of the, the kindness that you use in conversation is also very different. Like every, again, it might just be my team, but I've experienced with many of our teams is, uh, the importance of how are you doing? And like asking into your family is, is much more different than I experienced than I do in Scandinavia, where for example, my preferred, let's call it cultural context is just high work, uh, like nothing more than that. And these small things really matter. And it's because there's also a, I see, so as I understand it, there's a way for the cultural context to inform how to work well together. That if, if we understand how to understand and meet that way of communicating, it gives a better outcome. Um, but I might be wrong, but that's how I experienced at least.

Yeah. No, I, I agree with you. I think there's a lot of, um, we're, we're less direct. Yeah. To put it bluntly, uh, less direct. And I think also because of that also, uh, from when it comes to business, I think we're also known to be relatively slower compared to certain other markets because it's not always just sort of, you know, like, let's just respond. Um, so I feel that sometimes ends up, um, you know, and different people can draw different, uh, inferences based on which part of the world you've come from and what your training ground has been. Uh, but yeah, I think those are the two things about India. You, you definitely need a certain amount of patience to get business done here. Hmm. But there's also so much beauty in it. But, but again, for me and my, uh, my business part, it's also led to a lot of confusing for me, because for example, if we have, let's say an issue that we disagree on, and then it gives the whole context. And then for me, it's like, and then I say, I still don't understand what I mean.

Like, what do you mean? I painted everything. I'm just like, can you just say that one thing? Because that's no, it's, it's funny, but, but I can, I can imagine how that also is difficult to navigate when you also work in a high pressure environment and you need to get deals done. And you have a lot of responsibility being able to understand how you can make business, how you can grow a company, but also navigate how to speak with the people and stakeholders in a specific territory. So we can go to the same destination. Um, that in itself is a big thing.

Yeah. No, you're, you're absolutely right. And I, I'd also say this, I think we're more, uh, it's more WhatsApp as opposed to email. Yeah. That's the other thing that I, I noticed and I have to consciously keep reminding myself. Um, but yeah, I think everything has a WhatsApp chat, has a WhatsApp group. Um, and you know, it's, you find far quicker responses on WhatsApp than you with an email. Yeah. So let's get a bit practical. Um, so let's say you would have a startup that would be doing well in a territory that's not India. Uh, that could be the Western world. It could be Africa.

It could be wherever. And they want to grow their business in India. Um, this is a difficult question, but like, how would they go about coming into India with a business? Like what's the first steps they need to do? How do they need to navigate it? Is it contacting a lawyer like yourself? What would be the ways of, of approaching that? I was literally gonna say you stole my, you stole my sentence out of the first step is find Bianca. No, I'm, I'm just teasing you, but I think, yeah, the first step is to definitely find, um, more than one person. I would say, if you're not able to find that one reliable person, but I think talk to a few people, um, cross identify someone on ground, that's going to be your person, um, in terms of be your eyes and ears on ground. I think, uh, sometimes, and again, I don't say this in particular about India, but just in a lot of growth markets that one might want to enter into, um, it's very easy to, um, you know, sort of get misled and spend so much time and energy

Going down a certain route only to realize that, wait a minute, we were talking to the wrong set of people or going at it, um, you know, in an unconventional way, that's not going to serve my purposes. So I think it's very important that you find that correct, that correct person who is going to advise you, guide you, um, cause it could be saving you a lot of time, money and effort. Um, find someone that's not going to just say, yeah, this is a great idea and we should get it done. You'd be surprised, Yaakov. I think more often than not, I'm actually just questioning clients that why do you want to come to India? It's, you know, what it's already an oversaturated market.

You've got everything and everyone here. And you'd be amazed how often clients are completely unaware. They've either somebody internally hasn't done their homework correctly, their research correctly, um, or hasn't been able to, and I don't blame them, right? You're sitting miles and miles away. It's kind of impossible to tell, but sometimes it's just simple awareness of, oh, wait a minute. There's, you know, so many of my competitors are already in the region. Not only that are they in India. They've been here for a long time. They have a significant amount of market show. They've, you know, done enough. They've covered enough crown on, uh, here in India. So I feel do your homework even before you decide why in, you know, that you want to be into India. Why do you want to be here?

And now that you're entering this market, uh, you know, now at much later than some, some of the others have, what is it that you're bringing to the table that you're not? The other thing is, uh, again, that I would always love to, I like telling clients is please don't underestimate how expensive a market India is. I think people completely, um, you know, miscalculate, misjudge. And I don't say this in an arrogant way at all, but I, you know, where you're, you're a country of over a billion people. We are the largest producer of movies in the world. We're a big film and music industry. Uh, please have some regard to that. Uh, it's also expensive because, you know, things are different here. You've got, for example, you see more prominent minimum guarantees as opposed to some of the advances that I'd see in other territories, right? Um, even sometimes I'd have services that want to, uh, get Indian works licensed and will come to me with a budget. That's probably just 10% of what

You, you know, you might get in if out of the entire spends in India. So I just feel have complete regard to the market that you're entering the scale of it. Um, so that's the other thing that I would say is important when you're looking at India. And sorry, I have, I have a third thing to add. Sorry. The third is, and again, it's a very common mistake that I've seen people do is to think that I'm going to hire one person who's going to be my India person. That is not the way to do business in India. Um, like I said, A, this is a large territory. India within itself is a huge country.

Uh, and more than that, especially within the music business, it's not just one industry. You've got a bunch of different language, uh, languages and a bunch of different industries within the film and TV ecosystem that are prominent. It is not physically possible for one person to be in at least at the very least four different parts of India. So no, you don't need one person. You need a mini team of people to service India meaningfully. I can imagine like, it's so funny to look at, for example, the Norwegian music industry. Uh, I, I'm not really a part of either the Danish or Norwegian because I've had my career as both places that I'm, to be honest, I'm, I'm not super interested in both of them. But when you talk to the Norwegian industry, it's oftentimes it's very, uh, insulated. You know, a lot of the artists that do well here, they, they don't go across the country borders and they have a fine life. And most of the companies that operate here are national. It's 6 million people. Um, and you know, and for most of the successful artists, um, representatives agencies, that's good. And try to say, okay,

For 6 million people in a Norwegian environment, and then take that up to an Indian perspective, how more complex and elements and, and levels of, yeah, it's, yeah, I can imagine. I think Mumbai alone is, if I'm, if I'm not wrong about three times that population. Yeah. Okay. It's really interesting. One of the things I was surprised about also, I think because the country is so big, it's also, whenever you reach a level of talent that you want to have in India, it also seems like that's expensive. You know, I was looking at some, some development projects and we were like, okay, so this is a sort of straight out of college, like, what would they cost? And like, oh yeah, great. And you know, we can maybe work for one of those. And like, but what if you want to get like a top? And like, no, it's, it's not impossible. Like it's impossible. The, when you, when you first become excellent in India, it seems like that's also valued like a lot. It's extremely, extremely.

I have some foreign clients, uh, you know, turn around and say, oh, but these are us lawyer rates. And my reaction is, yeah, but why is my territory and geography determining, um, our rates? Like what, what does it mean that, oh, these are, you know, us or UK rates? Um, as if there's an India rate card, but that, that aside, I think you're absolutely right. That, like I said, right, I think people underestimate the cost of doing business in India, uh, good talent, good resources, like anyone else in the world, uh, come at a certain price tag. That being said, I think what surprises, what could surprise people is the cost of production in India, right? Compared to a lot of other, uh, territories that I've seen production in, uh, getting something made in India can be relatively, um, less expensive, right? And there are different pockets, for example, you'd have in, in social media, in, uh, perhaps graphic design, in some elements of production, you might find that it's easier and less expensive to get things done in India compared to, uh, some of the other

Territories. So I feel it has, it has its, uh, nuances, but you're absolutely right. Any, any talent that's good is going to be expensive. The other thing that I, I did want to add earlier when we were talking about, I think one of the challenges of doing business in India also tends to become, um, the channels that you have in accessing someone, right? We're a territory where, um, a, there's no licensing of any sorts to become an agent or to represent somebody. And especially in a talent business, it can get very, very challenging because you've sometimes got multiple middlemen that you're dealing with. Uh, when it comes, again, there's very little distinction between an agent and a manager. Um, for the most part, it's kind of all entwined into one. Uh, it, it confuses a lot of people in different from other territories that wait a minute, why is this, you know, one person doing everything, but really that's, that's how it works. You have, the talent has that one manager who's really looking at all aspects, looking at, uh, booking games, negotiating deals, uh, coordinating logistics, uh, anything and everything. And that person is your

Gatekeeper to every aspect of that talent's, uh, life and ecosystem. So I think that's the one thing to be mindful of. The other thing, um, which, and again, I don't know if it's true to, um, in other markets, but I feel access is relatively simpler today, right? There was a day and age where, you know, your rododex meant everything, but I think India is one such market. And again, it's, it's the beauty of being in a territory that's growing and growing so rapidly is that, uh, everyone's in this mode to get, get stuff done. So people are sometimes people are pretty much 24 by seven, uh, again, depending on which part of, uh, India you are in, but Bombay certainly is in the entertainment business is, and it's easy to, it's in that sense, easy to get access because you could reach out to someone and they'll respond. Uh, I think you just then have to be mindful of, you know, is this the right person to lead me to where I need to be? Hmm. So where is the place to be? Because you said, it's, it's a saturated market. Some people wouldn't know, but there's a lot of players

In this space. And so I've been there for a long time. So, so if you as an entrepreneur or a conglomerate that wants to have activities in India, what do you believe is the biggest potential for gaining market share that hasn't already been taken in India? I think there's a few, um, to begin with, I would, I personally feel that the, the distribution business perhaps is oversaturated, right? Because you've got every single player that you can think of that's present. The majors also offer distribution type deals and services. Um, so I feel that's, there's enough and more of those. Um, there's definitely an opportunity, I think probably in the hyper regional market, right? When you, uh, look at a lot of dialects. Um, so I think we have the main language is covered, but there's still bunch of dialects, uh, that I don't think are, uh, served well. Um, so I feel that's one area, but again, looking at it on macro level, some of the other areas that could do better is, um, one, I definitely feel in the live business, right? It's just about becoming

An important touring market. I've, I'm increasingly seeing a lot of global artists make a stopover in India whenever they're touring this part of the world. In fact, this upcoming touring season, I think is probably one of the biggest and most successful seasons that we're likely to see. Um, you've got Dua Lipa, you've got Bryan Adams, Ed Sheeran, a whole bunch of them. And I think many more to be announced. Um, but I feel there's a lot of, uh, a lot of opportunity in that space, right from, uh, venues and infrastructure. We could, I think there's a lot to be done on that front. Um, when it comes to, um, you know, just the various different nuances of the live business, whether right from ticketing to brands, to merchandise, to the experience that one has, uh, you know, implementing more technology and there's so, so many different aspects there.

So I feel live as a sector could definitely, uh, benefit from seeing a lot more, um, you know, improvement as far as any foreign technology players, stakeholders are concerned. Um, the other area I feel is, um, in the talent space, you know, I don't know whether it's a mix of, uh, agencies and management companies looking at it, but I feel like that's an area where I'm not saying that we need foreign management companies to come into India and sort of take over, but I do feel that there is some sort of collaboration or synergy waiting to happen there. And I say this more because I'm seeing, um, a lot of talent off Indian or South Asian origin. That's, that's huge at the moment.

I feel they could be better served if there was a more, um, collaborative, um, ecosystem, um, in the management world where the Indian counterparts could look at somebody in other markets. And likewise, the U S counterparts turning to somebody in India saying, Hey, how could talent be better served? Right. Both that's incoming as well as those who are performing, uh, in other in outside Western markets. So I feel that's another space where there's a lot of room for improvement. And the third, which I think is the lowest hanging fruit is obviously publishing. Um, it's a, it's, it's a game that is going to require patience as far as any, um, non-Indian player is concerned. But I, I do know that is, um, that's definitely meant for someone that's looking at it with a long-term vision. So I feel these are the three areas that, um, could be better served.

And when you talk about publishing, do you talk about sort of the individual writers that build careers or is it catalogs or like, what do you mean by publishing specifically? I'd say both. Right. And I'm going to rewind a little bit. Uh, in the beginning of our chat, I mentioned how India has, uh, traditionally been a works made for hire market, right? Which meant that for the most part, uh, even writers, uh, didn't understand what publishing meant or that there was a universe in which they could have, uh, had some sort of participation in the music that they created. Even today, it breaks my heart, but some of the most prominent, um, music composers this country has seen barely own any of their own catalog because a lot of, almost all of it has been made for movies and is therefore owned by the studio or into the record label. Right. But I feel in the current environment that we're in, um, there is an opportunity for, um, writers to own music.

And I think on the back of that, you've also seen a lot of businesses being set up where you have publishers, you've got, you know, publishing entities. Um, and I feel that's another, that's a, I say it's a low hanging food because currently there's a lot of awareness around it. Right. Um, so I feel when it comes to, when it comes to publishing, I don't necessarily, I'm not talking about just the writers here. There are entities that have entered into a lot of deals where they control some amount of the rights, but again, don't know how to administer these, how to monetize these.

What is the opportunity? Right. I think India sort of skipped through this entire phase of even sync agents and music supervisors. We just about now have a handful, but I feel those are also just, um, uh, you know, I feel just token positions, but no one truly understands, uh, the role, um, or, you know, the extent to which someone can do justice to having control or access to a publishing catalog. So I feel those are all the areas in which someone could benefit when I talk about publishing business. And of course, signing more writers, um, and administration is a whole different, um, side to it, but I feel those are all the areas in which one could tap into the publishing business in India. Good.

Yeah. And I, I feel really, if we get in today, then probably 10 years, 15 years, 20 years from now is when we're going to be looking at a lot of these catalog conversations around publishing deals. Yeah. No, it's definitely, it's, it's long time thinking and it's sort of a penny business, like many, many different streams that at the end really makes sense. But, uh, I have a question for Yaka because when I was researching you, uh, you know, I see titles such as billboard top music lawyer, billboard women in music. Um, and one of the things that I, I saw about billboard women in music is you were the only person from India, uh, which, which surprised me. Um, and I also see that you're a founder of women in music. So I, I'm going to pursue, there's a connection between those two things. Could you explain it for me? You're absolutely right. It surprised me because I know there's not just me. There's so, so many of us, um, in India, um, I think all incredible women.

And I think that was a big part of my motivation to set up Women of Music India, which I set up as a foundation. It's, uh, it's a non-for-profit organization that I set up in, uh, November of 23. And, you know, it's just been a little over six months, but I am extremely grateful for the kind of support and love that I've seen from everybody in the business. Uh, a lot of the, uh, global companies that have presence in India who've supported it, uh, who've come on board to help in any way they can. But I think the idea was very simple that can I have a place, a community that focuses on two main aspects. One is education and the other was opportunities. And when I say education, I mean, uh, just in terms of creating awareness about a bunch of different things that I've probably had to learn on my own or learn through some really difficult experiences, uh, when it comes to business skills, when it comes to technical subjects, when it comes to, you know, leadership, entrepreneurship.

So I feel all of that is the focus when it comes to education, just having access to the right executives so that people in the business were able to tell you, you know, what is, what's really accurate and what's not. Um, so I think that's the main focus when it comes to education and the other is networking and opportunities. And again, when I say opportunities, I mean, uh, just even having access or awareness that, oh, there is a role open here that I could be a part of, or there is an opportunity here where someone needs. And I, I think all of it, at least for the most, most part of my career, and that's how I've always approached it is, is to look at it from a gender neutral lens, right? I don't want to be given a position or a title because I, I fit into some sort of quota. I want it because I truly was the best person for that job. Um, so the idea is, can I create an environment where someone just has access to that opportunity?

Okay. So that's really the simple sort of, uh, simple, but not so simple way of explaining women of music and on ground, it has its fair share of challenges. I'm not going to lie. Um, especially the entertainment and the music industry in India is, um, you know, it is, it is a male dominated, uh, industry. It has, uh, there's very few women at the top. Um, and, uh, it's interesting because I see a lot of us in the workforce. There's, um, most, some of the most successful managers at this point in the talent business are all women. Uh, some of, even when I look at the C-suite composition of a lot of the bigger music companies in the country, a lot of the second tier is women.

So I feel that there's a lot of us in the ecosystem, but how do you help them, um, make that big jump, get better? How do you integrate more of us? How do you have more of us in leadership positions? Uh, and I just feel, you know, since we started this conversation, we were talking about how it just largely what's the macro level impact, right? And I think that's for me really what the long-term vision is with setting up a community like that. I feel today there's so much talk in India when it, when we even look at our, uh, movies or the kind of songs or the dance, right? Dance sequences that we have. And there's a lot of, um, flack sometimes that you get around it saying, oh, but you know, we love seeing women in a certain night. We love showing women in a certain night.

But the truth is that how many women are actually sitting in those decision-making places that are able to put forth another point of view, barely any, but, and I equally, I can't get them there overnight. It's not going to happen. Um, at the same time, I don't think just having one of them changes anything, right? You need to have, uh, a certain amount of you, there needs to be more than one of us. And I think that's my attempt at trying to build this community and it's, it's going to be slow, but, uh, I feel like everyone understands and buys into the vision. So hopefully in a few years from now, it'll change the way our narrative works around the, around how music is looked at, perceived, consumed and how it operates day to day.

That's amazing. I do need to understand though, uh, how do you get into the music industry in India? Like what's the ordinary step? Do you have universities where you're focused on this? Like, what's the, I think, I guess there's no ordinary, but what's the most typical way of being introduced to this industry? You know what? I, I'm actually, I'm, I'm wondering what it is, right? Because I think we just take music so much as part of our intrinsic, uh, DNA that I don't think I've stopped to think about it before, before today. Uh, I, I don't know how, how familiar you are with this, but literally for us, I think music is pretty much a part of everything, right? From the time that we're growing up, right? For every occasion, every event, every life event, our weddings, uh, if someone passes away, if someone's born, there's, there's some sort of celebration and it all involves music.

Uh, so I think I've almost taken it for granted that, yeah, I think we probably just know it, but I, I know that enough and more, there are music schools. There's, uh, there's some brilliant film institutions that also have music as part of their curriculum. I know a lot of kids who go outside of India to some of the other, the, uh, some of the more prominent music schools that we've gotten. Uh, but I think for the most part, I've just seen people finding ways to assist someone, work, you know, get, get inside that studio. And I, I feel the, thanks to technology. There's so much access that you have so many DIY musicians, so many bedroom producers. And as far as the business side is concerned, um, I, I think at least to the best of my experience, most of them will start out with an internship with starting to assist someone and then try and make their way upwards. For me, it was a total coincidence and it's, it's just, um, completely bizarre how I ended up in the music industry. It was purely because of my writing days. I'd assisted, uh, someone for a long period of time who, uh,

which led me to acting for, um, my first ever client called Lata Mangeshkar, who is dubbed as the Nightingale of India. Uh, and I had the privilege of serving home during her lifetime and right until she passed away. Thank you. And then I continue, uh, having family administer her estate. And for, for those of, uh, our Indian listeners are familiar with who she is. They probably know that they're, I don't think there's anyone bigger than that, that we've seen in our lifetimes, at least in the Indian music industry. We have a lot of firsts, um, in the business, thanks to her, um, and the career that she's seen. So for me, it was really acting for her and word of mouth and one thing led to another and music became a big part of, uh, my practice. Hmm. So a curious question. Um, for example, when I went into music, um, it was difficult for my family to fully comprehend, uh, just because in, at least in Denmark where I'm from, you know, music is mostly just a hobby. Very few people can live

from it. And most people perceive it as a, as a joke. If you want to perceive it, you know, pursue a career music. Is that the same in India or is it because you said it's such a big part of your lives? Like, is there a thought about having a career music? You know, you're, you're right about that. Even though it's so, I think it's exactly because it's so omnipresent and just a part of our lives that I think we almost take it for granted. And I don't think, hopefully now things are different, thanks to social media where, you know, parents at least, I hope, think that it's a, it's a career, but at least growing up for me, um, it was, it was difficult in my generation, right? Because I think traditionally parents thought that, you know, you took up more traditional vocations as engineering, medicine, accounting, so on and so forth. I think pursuing your parents to have a career in the entertainment business is, is tricky. And I think even today for some parts of India, it is a challenging conversation to have with your folks back home, uh, because of cultural

nuances, because of how it's perceived where, uh, you know, even just socially, um, how, how comfortable or not your folks feel. I think there's so much, um, you know, especially for women, right? I think safety is a big aspect. Um, how, uh, you know, how respectful or not is it as a profession? Some still reason on people. Again, it's, I don't endorse any of these, um, uh, notions that people have in mind, but you're, to your point, socially, culturally, I think it's still in, um, a lot of parts of India, a conversation to be had that, you know, is it a, is it a career, a sustainable career, uh, and one that I feel comfortable for my child to have. Um, so that's definitely, it, it might be a tricky conversation for a lot of people even today.

Hmm. But yeah, I'm going to ask you a last question before, before I say thank you for the episode. It's going to be a very egotistical question because I, I do need your advice on something. And that is, I actually started the conversation with you, uh, before we started recording and saying that, um, the podcast so far has to a big degree been what I've known. So an India, no, a Western music industry and, um, sort of the more traditional founder types figures, uh, which is all good or great. It has its own, own worth. But as I've been discovering everything from Nigeria, assuming, you know, interviewing people from South Korea and India, you know, there's a lot of worth that is to be discovered from my side. And it's, it comes with a good deal of ignorance. Like, what is it that I'm missing out on? So what is it that I'm missing out on? What is it that me, myself and the audience should start understanding about searching outside our own known boxes? Well, what you're missing out on is that India is the world's largest streaming market

in terms of volume. Where number one, uh, I know that shacked itself, surprises a lot of people who've, uh, failed to notice that where Instagram's largest market in the world, where YouTube's largest market largest market in the world. Up until recently, YouTube's largest, uh, most subscribed channel was an Indian record label. Uh, so I, yeah, I did not know that. It's a record label called T-CVs that is the most subscribed to YouTube channel in the world. And I think that says something, right? Yeah. Um, so it's definitely a territory that is, it's hard to miss in terms of the sheer scale of, uh, volume that it has.

There's strength in numbers. Um, and it's only, uh, slated to grow. Um, I think we've seen consistent growth for anyone who's been following the IFPR reports and every other statistic that, that comes out annually around the music business. You'll see that India has been slowly steadily climbing to the top of multiple charts. Uh, even currently, I think if you take a look at some of the global signings that you're having, uh, India and the Indian diaspora artists from the diaspora feature in some shape or form, we've had them participate in Coachella. You've got them doing sold out tours, uh, in North America.

I mean, if somebody had told me any of these things 10 years ago, I would find it so difficult to believe about the Indian market, but it's happened. We've seen that change. And I think there's only more to come. So if you haven't thought about it already, then you're already a little late, but it's still not too late. So if you, you've got to do your homework about India and it's a market that you cannot miss for sure. Well, thank you. And this is why I'm happy you're on. Uh, and thank you for taking your time. Uh, I was, I was starstruck and I'm still a starstruck. So thank you so much for, for being here and sharing your wisdom and your experience. Priyanka, I'm sure that we'll hear a lot more from you, uh, in the many years to come with your music. Um, and thank you for being on.

Thank you. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.