Connecting African Artists to the Global Music Business

We are about to expand into East and South Africa. And really to make that process easier and create a product that is actually for African artists rather than them use, yeah, rather than them using like a globalized product, we actually tailor the entire product to the African market. So that can be different payment gateways, so integrating things like mobile money. It can be using AI to provide more education and resource, or it can be really providing a a platform which is low data. This podcast is produced by Amplitude Ventures, your partner in early stage startups.

Today on Sound Connections, Yakodo and Tom joins us to explore how they're building music infrastructure in West Africa. From artist empowerment and cultural independence to distribution and the future of music in the age of AI, we discuss what it takes to build a music ecosystem that serves local artists.

Yeah and Tom, welcome to the studio. Having Thanks for having us. Okay, I'm looking forward to this. Tom, yeah, we're gonna talk about Africa. We're gonna talk about West Africa. We're gonna talk about what you do. and I'm sure it's gonna be a really interesting conversation. So for the people who don't know you, who are you and what do you do? Okay, ladies first. So so I wouldn't know how to like introduce myself in a really quick way, but I would say I'm definitely a lover of art, music, and culture. I always have been. I grew up in a musical household. My dad is was a West African high life musician. He was very indie, very alternative for his time talking about

life, culture in a very authentic way, singing in his own language, dressing in a really progressive way. And I grew up with this notion that art is supposed to be the free expression of the mind. And yeah, growing up with that, I was heavily influenced by that, but also not encouraged. I became an artist, but that was really not my parents' plan. They wanted me to go into something far away from the industry. mainly because of the hardships my dad faced and my mom being his partner and being very supportive kind of I think they wanted to protect me, but I was still sent to piano lessons, dance lessons and grew up around my dad rehearsing in the garage next door. And I naturally developed a a love for music and for expressing myself and Things went really quickly, I feel. We were traveling a lot. I'm really a global citizen. My mom is a political scientist, my dad a musician. And I started playing in bands when I was 14 and got my first record deal at yeah, at 20. was surprised how fast it went. and had a a a a beautiful career, a career I'm proud of. beautiful people I collaborated with. And I have been in in the music, f face fronting and behind the scenes ever since. Amazing. And talk?

yeah, I've also always had a really keen interest in music, literally for as long as I can remember. I was watching Top of the Pops. I'm from the UK. I was watching that on Friday night and I was straight down to R Price or HMV to buy the latest singles I loved, even at from very early age. I think like my first business was like making compilations, burning CDs and like getting them out to my friends during like school years. and I think that's just really meant that I had an interest and a love for the intersection between the art and the business. I I moved to London and joined a band which was signed to Polydor back in the day. And I think that's where I learned quite a lot about the industry. and then I really kind of realized that I wasn't really an artist. I was more interested in the business side of how everything worked and really helping artists. perform to their best ability and ultimately like create careers. Amazing. And and so so you've had each year start in music, which which have had its different paths, but now you're in a common path, which is entrepreneurship. So tell me a bit about your ventures right now. What are you doing? Well, it all started with having had a career that I feel like inspired me a lot to give back some of the freedoms I experienced being an African artist, a biracial artist, a multilingual artist, someone who wasn't really categorized very easily. working with a wonderful team who always highlighted my artistry and

my ability to be authentic within the industry and the structure of commercial music. I was signed to Warner Music, which is a very traditional label, but they really embraced me with my ideas and with my ideas of how I wanted to present myself, the imagery, where I wanted to shoot my videos, which I in 2012, my team and I decided to do that in West Africa. And that was still very unheard of at the time. You had a few artists making music who came from Africa, but you didn't really have artists who assigned to European labels who who pushed the African image, which is now thankfully changing and has changed on a big scale. So again, I feel like being an artist is standing in your truth and working with people who understand and translate your truth. And I was very lucky and I always felt when I had fulfilled my three option deal, I always knew I wanted to build. I wanted to build and facilitate and and provide access to young brown people all over the world, but mainly in Africa, West Africa, where I grew up, where I was privileged to have like my childhood and and my dad is from West Africa and knowing the talent that really is born on the continent, but then again, often it lacks the infrastructure to kind of like showcase and platform that talent. So it kind of all started there with that notion that I got really lucky. I got signed quickly. I had a good career. I I I was able to live of it by through being authentically myself. And I kind of wanted to provide that for other people as well. So this is kind of the real motive why I decided to go back to Ghana, I was very inspired by this sounds like massive, but it it's kind of like, I don't know how it happened, but I got invited to be a part of a delegation of the federal president in Germany. So we did an Africa tour. So we we went on different, we went to different African countries and we met with African leaders and other politicians and and and we

We learnt what the continent needs. And I was lucky enough to be part of that delegation and surrounded by all these brilliant visionaries. And I got a chance to speak to the then president in in in power, which was at that time Nana Kufa. And something he said really inspired me. He said, Let's make sure all our young, talented people stay with us in our country and we build. this country so that they don't have to migrate, so that they don't have to leave, regardless of what they do. And that really inspired me. And so when COVID happened and all my gigs and all my kind of like responsibilities got canceled and I had fulfilled my three option deal, I quickly decided to create my own label and and and and create my own first it started with wanting to house my catalogue, like because I just kept writing music and I was going down there shooting videos, like employing Ghanaians, like the video directors, Ghanaians from the people on set, like everyone Ghanaian. And it just grew and then MES was born and and along the way I met Tom. And we haven't worked separately ever since. But that's like the backstory of why I became an entrepreneur, really giving back. providing access. also just I I got lucky sharing that luck, sharing that positivity, sharing that dual perspective of being European and African. And also I've also been to American schools. So having that as well inside of me and just literally putting everything that was given to me to work. Hm. So so and yeah, you've been doing things together and as far as I can understand, like you've you set up three companies together or three efforts, like entertainment systems, an access services company, address management company, label services, Aphrosonic, which is really interesting, like a first iteration music industry conference. And then Wowie, do I pronounce that correctly? Waivy. Waivy.

Like the wavy it started off as WAVI because Tom was like, yeah, because of WAF files because I was consistently dealing with WAF files. Like at that time we were I was working on my my fourth studio album and it was always like, Did you receive the WAF? Do you so we were like WAVI? But then when we tested the product, the kids were calling it Wavy. So we quickly It has to be wavy. The market is spoken. Yeah. So so so bring it down to me is because like obviously these are quite interconnected pursuits and I'm sure it sort of speaks into what ya is talking about about creating the infrastructure and the opportunity for for creators and an artist in West Africa. But Tom, maybe break them down to us so we understand them and said like what are you actually doing and what are the services you provide and what are you trying to build? Of course. So all three companies really sit on top of each other as a stacked ecosystem. So you've got kind of Wavy at the top, and Wavy is our DIY distribution tech platform, which is really targeting grassroots artists in currently in West Africa, but we are about to expand into East and South Africa. And really to make that process easier and

Create a product that is actually for African artists rather than them use, yeah, rather than them using like a globalized product. We actually tailor the entire product to the African market. So that can be different payment gateways, so integrating things like mobile money. It can be using AI to provide more education and resource, or it can be really providing a platform which is low data, which is a really crucial aspect to day-to-day in. in Africa generally because data's expensive. and then we've got Afrasonic X, which is our showcase platform and industry conference, which really gives us the ability to showcase artists in Ghana. And yeah, and invite the global industry in to actually see what's happening on the ground to create that focal point. And then we of course have Moon Entertainment Systems, which is our production company and record label. Which yeah, is really where we can bring artists through to to really help develop ones which are showing signs of, you know, strong movement and growth. Hm. So so, you know, obviously they're connected and and they all speak to catering the services and the opportunities and the tech to local artists. So maybe let's just understand what are the limitations. let's say if you assist from Ghana or a West African country, what are the realities that they face by pursuing an ASIS career? I love that question because I think what really happened when Tom and I met is we went on a quest to really understand what people need. I feel like founding a business, creating a business is should be strongly based on listening to the local infrastructure, meaning listening to systems, listening to individuals who are embedded in the territory and really ingesting that information and then creating solutions.

for them not because we think it's right but because they think it's what they need so i don't know if you want to add to that but that was really like the origin of of us starting out like a lot of like research putting on the shows like doing the actual work of not only putting on my shows but bringing in people from bringing in African Americans like we brought in PJ Morton Denzel Curry having them perform in this environment that is not an easy environment Right. And I think challenges are exposed by asking questions. And that's where we started. And that was a a major tool to face some of these challenges, not thinking we know, not importing a system that we think is right that is more based on the American system or the European system, or let's just say the the the West, but but going there and adapting to what already worked and making it better. So so what what what are what are the practical limitations, Tom? I think the limitations are around predominantly things like accessibility for artists, their access to things like the most simple things like recording studios, education, the ability to understand the music industry as a business. It's already quite a complex like structure that's kind of based on like a a business from way back and then you're you're asking like what who are ultimately like young kids to like totally understand a music business, metadata, all these you know terms. I think education is one of the biggest limitations. And we really try and make sure that education underpins every part of our businesses. So whether that's with Wavy, we're making sure that people can actually speak to someone who speaks their language.

And can explain to them how things work. With Afrasonic X, we are making sure that we can bring in someone from Sweden or someone from Nigeria to talk about how they built a music business so people can see that there is like a tangible, like long career to have it, whether you're an executive or an artist. And with, of course, MES, we have the ability to assist people with. building like their production careers. We have a whole production team. So we have the ability to work with them on, you know, our head of production has done Afrasonic X and Accra, but equally two months later he was putting on a show in the Royal Albert Hall in London. Like, and I think these are really, really important bridges that we're we're aiming to build across all the companies. Also, I think another problem just to answer or to extend is is trust, building a trusted team. I mean, these are all things that we we all kind of come from entrepreneurship and have had intersection with music and art and culture. And I think at the end of the day, it's still a people's business. my my ex manager always used to drill that into me. It's how you deal with people. And one of the biggest, I think, attributes to that is gaining their trust. And the way you gain people's trust is by including them and listening, like I said, to them, but also not identifying their problems as something that is going to stop them achieving whatever they want to achieve. But like I said, building onto them. So yes, we have we we have problems with education, infrastructure, internet grids, like all these things. They're problems, but they shouldn't stop people from achieving what they want to achieve. They shouldn't inspire people to want to leave because they think they can achieve their goals elsewhere. So it's really about how we look at the problems because there are many. If you are like also you mentioned earlier pioneer, you will face a lot of problems. Like it's it's it's kind of like it's it's not cute to build what we've built. And I don't think

Yeah, don't think limitations, you know, I think there's limitations everywhere and they can't be put down to geography. And I think West Africa specifically offers something uniquely special, which is an extremely young population who are fully digitalized and who are absolutely brimming with talent. And and it's musical talent and it always really, really has been for many, many generations. So I think for us to be able to work in in that kind of environment is is extremely exciting. So one thing about being pioneer, you know, at at Evaluate Ventures where I work, we we meet with startups every day. And one of the things that I try to say is sort of along the lines of being a pioneer where I really recommend against it. I'm not saying I'm recommending you against it, but I'll I'll sort of paint the picture because if you have a if you have a business where you both need to sort of commercialize and and and sell which which is hard enough in itself and you also need to educate. most of sort of your time will probably go to education. And and oftentimes the case is you sort of doing the work in order for others to succeed because at the time like at the period where you've actually educated people, like you're you're out of money and energy and youth. so I'm not saying that's your case, but like that's the problem with having these new markets. That's the extra chance. So how do you build something commercially viable as well when you're doing this with pursuit like you've you've guys have been to s going on for five years now, as as entrepreneurs doing this.

Just saying to some guys in a meeting earlier that the commercial value of these companies is only big enough if you can give enough education. Education does create that commercial line. and that's where I was just really drilling on the importance of it because without people understanding things and understanding the business, then they're not going to use your products so freely. The more they know, the more they're going to use your products. So I think ultimately both have to go hand in hand. Yao, what do you think? I think also, I I love what you said, but it's also like the practical aspect. Like if you look at Wavy, it's a service that people actually just want to use. They think it's lit. So they sign up to it, they want to use it, they wanna access it, they buy the packages because they think it's easier. So that's that, like creating something that's practical. It's automatically commercialized because you're solving a problem that that was Big. You know, most people don't have credit cards. Most people don't have $20 a month. You have to make it cheaper. Most people don't have as much access to data. You have to create it, load data. you have to look at the tech specs of the app. Are they viable for the region? Does it work? Like all this is work. But if you take the time, if you are disciplined enough to look into those details, it's automatically commercialized. And even if you look at like the platform. Which I I love calling AFX a platform because it truly is. We are putting people on a platform and we're also putting sponsors on a platform, right? We're also we're we're also putting the intersection of the global industry and the African music industry on the platform where a lot of deals happen not only on the ground, but also afterwards or leading up to it. So don't know if that answers your question. Signing an artist who goes viral off a performance in at Afrasonic X is

lucrative and and and and commercially viable. So I think it's with with what we do and and and how I approach life in general and how I also approach my career is and I know it sounds so cliche and and I hate when people say that to me or I hate saying it to other people, but really not really thinking of that at first, but but really going hardcore and being very detailed on what's the actual problem and just really focusing on that. Yeah, that's what we've done with each of the businesses. Yeah, it's right. And it's really as soon as you go to problem solving first, you can build a commercial model around that. Hm. So so I think there's something interesting about education. you know, obviously this is different. Well, I can imagine it's different across the world. I don't know if that's why I'm asking the question. But if you if you look at the West, like Scandinavia where I'm from, education is assumed free. And there's there's not any loyalty towards education. If some if I if I'm taught something by the school and like, well, you're supposed to, so I'm not gonna give you my lotacy. And if I yeah have a course or whatever, it's sort of it it I don't have loyalty towards education. Is that different in West Africa? Like it because you say yourself it's sort of your wedge. One thousand percent. Okay. One thousand percent. Because like even my family, we had to leave Ghana at a certain point because it's privatized. Education is privatized, right? It's a private sector. So that's one thing. it's not accessible to all. Also, we're talking about a region where we have an array of local languages. English is not everybody's first language, right? and French is not everybody's first language.

All these Western languages are normally and and mostly not the first language of someone who lives in the region. So education has to be reimagined as well. How do people learn? Why do they want to learn? And how will learning help them make a living? Right. And I also don't believe that Western education works for Africa, but that's a whole nother topic for a whole nother podcast. But it it it brings me back to. again, knowing our privilege of or all of us who are in this podcast knowing our privilege, but not assuming that that is the right and only way and going there asking questions and focusing on what is already there and and focusing on how people ingest education. Tom already mentioned that it's the continent with the fastest growing young population. What do people do? They learn through the internet, right? Knowing that and knowing how much AI can play a role in that, knowing how much community building has to go alongside of that is key and will allow us to create education systems. Well, this is the bigger goal to have an arts academy that has a business branch and a practical branch that will allow us to bridge these things and create an authentic approach to education when it comes specifically to what we do, which is the music industry. And I think that's interesting. Obviously with AI, a lot of things are happening. But the you know, the the thing about AI is you've you've one access to AI that usually also has a cost. And then it's also it's it's very Americanized or or some other nice. I I I can imagine there's there's not as much that sort of has this Afrocentric information system or the sort of the the cultural context. Like even just from Scandinavia, when I when I s talk with, you know. I use many, many different AI systems. But when I talk with whatever AI I'm using, like it's it's never appropriate to what my context is. Like I need to bring in my own context for it to make sense. Because like, no, no, chat up to you or Claude where you're wrong because I'm from here and this is how this works. yes, you're right. But unless I'm tell it tell it that, it it can't grasp the context of where I'm from.

I love that you're saying.

It's only as good as the prompt you give it. Yeah. And so so you don't know what you don't know and then if you don't have, you know, access to the paid subscriptions like it you don't have enough tokens to to go that deep. So I guess that's also what you're saying. So yes, AI is there but it's not it's not contextual. Not contextual yet. I do feel like even like I'm currently in New York, and I'm I've been having wonderful encounters, meetings with with people who are in tech, and there is this great first of all, there's the math, you know, knowing how many people are there, how many people are connected to their phones and and and and just being just having the right amount of economic foresight that this is going to be a huge market. That's number one. But number two is also Because it's so fresh and because it's not really accessed yet, thinking of how to access it and making it as efficient as possible and as authentic as possible. I think it's a really good time for Africa to reimagine that and use it, use AI in the form of like even through our app or music creation, music distribution. even though there are a lot of questions that need to be answered everywhere around the world about attributions and royalties and rights and how we can protect ourselves as well. But it's I think it's a very exciting time to introduce AI to the African market. And I'm always excited to highlight that when I talk about AFX as well. Because we need we need appropriate partners to introduce that level of learning, these learning tools to the African market. Tom, do you want to add or did I leave something out?

I think, yeah, what I'd probably add is is what we are about to launch with Wavy, which is it's basically taking out that final friction point so that artists don't have to download an app or log on to a desktop to access Wavy. So Wavy is now going to be via WhatsApp. So essentially you can control the whole DIY distribution process from a WhatsApp conversation. So you can upload your file, you can upload your metadata, you can have a chat with it, you can ask when they think it would be good you release it, what your release schedule should look like. You can have a whole conversation on WhatsApp, and that will lead to you releasing your music. And that's where I feel like we are really going to integrate that educational side, but it'll be in like not like okay, I'm gonna have to like read a book now about this, but it's happening conversationally, which I mean, from my perspective, conversation has always been a great way of education, rather than, you know, you've got to sit and read a book. and we really think that that is gonna change the game for the continent in terms of DIY distribution. I think that's a quite interesting Tom only says that 'cause I'm the reader in the family.

So I I think it's I love that it's interesting to get the the context of that. And you know, you know we've we've had we still have a good deal of employees in Africa and and we've had many people in Ethiopia. And what's really interesting about the cost of technology there, like technology devices, I was talking with one of our employees, he's a professor, who's worked with us for a long time. He's actually done a lot of music tech research. And we were talking about like I I was asking him, Why are you so slow on Slack? And he's like, I can only have it on my computer, like Why? no because I have an iPhone seven and that's the only like iPhone I can get. Like I can't even get it from the app store. And so even if you have a smartphone, like just the availability of technology does not necessarily mean that you can download it on the app store. Is that what you're talking about when you talk about WhatsApp sort of accessibility of technology? Yeah, that's definitely to a degree. I mean, i I think a lot of it comes down to data and the cost of like getting data on your phone. So you have to top up your phone, at least in Ghana, every time you need airtime or data. So you have to actively be buying it, right? So it's not on like a contract like when you're in the UK or whatever. So if you're suddenly having to download a big app, then you have to open it every time. It's just another friction point to getting to the end goal of what you're trying to do. Whereas WhatsApp is kind of, you might be messaging your mum on WhatsApp, and then the next conversation down is with Wavy, and then you're like, yeah, it reminds me I need to upload my metadata for my next release. So it just integrates it more into the everyday processes that people are doing on their phones. it also doesn't give limitations in terms of which phone brand. There's a lot more. different phone brands in market in Africa than in in Europe. and they all obviously have WhatsApp on them or the ability to get WhatsApp on them. So it means that you can then connect and and work with people across anyone who's got a smartphone rather than just someone who's specifically Android and this or this and Apple yeah.

think it's it's just like you said, Jacob, like not, you know, you you talk to people, you talk to your colleagues and there's certain limitations. Yes, there's certain limitations, but what we don't want to do is encourage people to get the newest iPhone. We want to allow them to work with what they have, which all ties into how we even started all these businesses is by asking what is needed. We don't want people to consume more things that do not work in their environment. We want people to be compelled to use what works in their environment and what is economically what makes economical sense for them.

So one thing I think is interesting, I'm sort of changing a tiny bit of direction of the conversation, but this is something I'm curious about. when you have an economy, let's say Ghana, there's sort of a GDP per capita, like there's there's a context to to wealth and and non-wealth, right? So if you build a business that's based in Ghana and you build it for West Africans, sort of the income associated to what that would constitute a good investment or return investment would be n different than than a US company that needs, you know, certain revenue because the expenses are so high. Like, do you believe it's it's a viable investment for companies in general to go into West Africa as well with their context of value and invest in it to then get a return investment? Or do you still need to be sort of locally based with local expenses in order to this make sense right now in the music industry? I feel like that's the beauty of living in in a free market. Like I I feel like we're in a position where we can stay we can scale businesses quite easily and quite quickly in an environment that is growing in population, but also growing in in tech. And that is growing in I'm looking for a word here. It's growing in not not it's growing in opportunities, you know, like because we have the Asians investing heavily in Africa because they are like I I hate to say it, but they are just ahead. They have seen what was happening. They have seen what happened in their countries. They draw similarities to the African growth in population, but they also grow into this grow they also see similarities into the space, like the weather conditions, the The the way people are traditional, the way people hang on to their traditions and their routines and stuff. They go there, they live there. There is Mandarin schools in Africa as we speak because they are so intent on it. And I do feel like the West is always a bit I'm a proud European, but we are slow. We are slow to invest because we want to calculate the risk. We want and return on our investment. and we want that to be as stabilized as possible and calculated.

Calculable as possible. I don't know if that's the right word, but we want to kind of like gauge it, right? And but that's that's almost a given to me in a country that is growing so fast, in a country that has stable politics. Like Ghana has been a stable democracy since its independence, which I pride myself in as a Ghanaian living in West Africa. It's a very stable country, it's a very safe country. It's a country where we all we have a lot of international PR, right? Like if you want to go to a country. You you that is safe, that is that is fun, that is accommodating. You get recommended Ghana. There was a huge spend on the year of return encouraging African Americans. You talked about America to invest in Ghana. We're talking not only the music industry, we're talking real estate. There's a big real estate boom. So I do think it's it's pretty scalable if you if you really look at the numbers and if you look at what other countries are heavily investing and getting return in West Africa. I think just looking at the Chinese cars that you're now seeing just in Ghana, for example, over the past year, you just see so many more Chinese cars. Yeah, yeah. You see so many of them. And, you know, those those companies are extremely commercially driven, and there's a reason why they're there. And I think ultimately the the potential is that it's a a market which can sometimes be forgotten by the major global companies. So if you've got a product which is relevant, then you need to get that to market there because like Yah says, you've got a very fast growing population, which people want the same things everywhere in the world, right? So you need to bring it to them in their own way. And you know, I I agree, like, even though I don't know a whole lot of Africa I I know more than I say, but like I I've been exposed to like again, we we've we've been focusing on on East Africa for a bit more than two years, now. And when I look at all the entrepreneurs in in Norway and in circles, like you have some of the most successful entrepreneurs i in this country and and in Scandinavia that now going hard in Africa. Like

This is the new frontier. My business partner Taj, he's from India. He moved to Noah five years ago. So he he was a part of that boom, you know, 15, 20 years ago in India. And he totally recognizes that's what's happening here as well. but but one of the the things that are it might be difficult is sort of the the cultural difference for many other nations. So how do you obviously Africa is a very big content, right? But but what are the things as an entrepreneur, if you want to approach building business or investing business in in let's say West Africa. Well cultural difference you need to be aware of. for example in music, how people express themselves and how you how you make make money there. I think you can't do anything without local teams and employing people on the ground and bringing them in and making them part of what you're doing. I think that is something that often gets forgotten, particularly with larger multinational, you know, global companies. They they think they can just plug and play what works in Sweden or or or for a better example, what works in Ethiopia will work in Ghana. And that's not the case. And that's where you have to build a really solid Local team in each region. think bridging the gap as well I think with with Tom between Tom and I we have we have the British the British the UK perspective we have the European perspective we have the American as perspective again I've worked a lot went to American schools I'm currently in America we have the African perspective within Africa I have traveled to Kenya worked there I've I've I've I've spent time in music for music I've I've I've played shows in Guinea Bissau and and in and

And Seneg I've I've worked in Senegal. I've I've you know, I've covered a bit. Like I've we just recently came back from South Africa for work. So being curious, I think to answer your question, being more curious than certain is is is definitely a way to build businesses across Africa. Like I feel like Africa still has a very questionable PR, which is mainly due to racism, colonialism. you wanted to go there, the dark sides of of of of of working with companies like this is you often go against very set perspectives and mindsets people have about the African continent. Things they were being fed through the media, through accounts of Africa being a poor place, being a dirty place, being a place where you get sick, being a place where you cannot fulfill your dreams, being a place you have to flee from, to run away from in order to be. So this is what you're going up against if you are trying to or if you are pitching ideas or businesses in in a context, right? That requires people to be interested and invest. But I think it's all about representation and curiosity. Like I also already in my person represent, I think, a pretty modern idea of what it means to be African. A lot of Africans travel and have at had education elsewhere and come back and do things. So this is really like Even if you go to the capital of Lagos or Accra, this is this is normal life. Like people speak multiple languages, are very accustomed with the Western culture and the African culture. And I think coming in as a European, these are the things that me and Tom talked about a lot when we met each other. It's just really, like Tom said, connecting with people, not connecting with them like I know better, but connecting with them like I am at your service, right? I want to make things better for you. And I think that flies very well. in our culture because we are tired of being told how to live, what to do, how to speak, how to behave ourselves, how to express ourselves. I think there's an African Renaissance happening where African people know their pride. They know that they have been knowing. It's just that the narrative is slowly and surely changing through pop culture, music, art. They are always the pioneers. Those are always the pioneering, p pioneering forms when it comes to

Changing an image and economy follows. So so I have a perhaps ignorant question. you touched upon colonialism. and the the major labels and and big companies have sort of moved in and out of a lot of African countries. And the way that I see the market right now and I understand it is there's a lot of entrepreneurs in the sense of coming from the culture, coming from the country that needs to build these things themselves, like you. so is there a benefit to maybe the internationals and the big companies you know, not being the one investing, but forcing entrepreneurs to sort of build in themselves from the inside out. Where it talks about these opportunities. What's your what's your sort of take on that? For us, we're all always kind of like independent first. So we always firstly, as entrepreneurs, want to support other entrepreneurs. So I think that often that you know the big major label deal isn't as glamorous as maybe it sounds. And I think but I do think the majors have an important place on the continent. And I think that they are are really trying to establish themselves on what. Is probably the most exciting music continent on the planet. and I think that they need to work clut more closely with entrepreneurs in order to do that. Because it is such a a large continent with so many different cultures, so many different countries, languages. I think that you have to really localize and go with the entrepreneurs that are local in order to build out a major company.

And also to add to add to add to that, the consumer decides. We don't have any power. The consumer decides. The consumer is is king. And if you have if you have Africans finally having a medium where they can express themselves freely and independently on their own terms with their own narrative, which is the internet, which is YouTube, which is social media, which is being able to release and go into that entrepreneurship or showcasing their art or modeling like this amazing story of these models that create content and then work for Chanel, like they're from Africa. Like there is a certain autonomy where I think it has changed. Like they are not waiting for the major labels to give them a chance. Because the consumers have already decided. And because the creator economy has changed so much, major labels are now looking or major corporations, entities, talking about Chanel, Universal, they are now looking to Africa. film industries as well. What are people consuming? Why why why is everybody hyped about this? It's because our own creator economy has changed. Our global creator community has changed so much through the internet. And Africans have gained way more power and way more visibility through that. So I think the tables have flipped a bit where we often find in meetings when we were starting out and I was kind of like trying to ta tell people and convince them just to listen to my album or give me a record deal or like sign my label. They were like, So what is actually happening in Africa? Like there was like this big, like honestly positive ignorance, where we felt, okay, so people really want to, but they don't know how. And another problem was detected. And so we attempted to solve that problem by creating AFX, which I hope you come to, where everyone meets and everything clashes and all these bridges are kind of burnt down. think for these majors as well, they're so used at top level to looking at where's the return coming, where's the return coming. And I am always encouraging, you know, in the conversations we have with the majors to like assist us in building the infrastructure, because without that infrastructure, it's going to be hard for them to get the returns that they want. Right. So they need to invest in the the wider infrastructure in and in even more of a wide way than they do elsewhere.

and I think to go back to the point about scalability and value as well. looking at a company like Move, which is this vehicle financing company out of Nigeria, one of Africa's fastest growing, if not I think the fastest growing company on the continent, they just raised like a hundred million from Uber. And what they've done is solve a problem. People wanted to drive Ubers or drive bolts, right? But how do I get the car? So then they created this whole drive to own scheme. So the ability for people to get the car and then pay it off. so I think there is is potential for that that return and that scalability. Hmm. A different question I was I was thinking about is sort of globalization or sort of you have, you know, local artists distributing local music to hopefully a Hispora or a global audience. But the way the algorithms work, it's not necessarily the favor of that. it takes a lot is sort of at least what I've been able to to research thus far. Like how do you how do you Think about this. What is the the problems you see? Do you know something? I don't have to think about it because I see artists who I know personally, who I know, they don't come from rich families or they don't have lots of funds to make themselves blow up. I see them blow up in their bedroom. I see it go viral. I see them having collaborations with other major artists getting major offers from major labels because they made it happen. A good example of that is Molly, right? one of our biggest Ghanaian artists. I

Know her personally. She started out posting consistently every single day. So whenever people ask me this question, I'm like, yes, it is, it is difficult, but it is just as difficult to get signed. When I was 20 and I had to audition for at least 15 labels, I was sitting there with my piano. Like I was, I was shocked that I got signed. It was hard. And there was loads of people who were better than me, who who sang better than me, who, but once People recognize that one thing that is it. And that's what I said earlier. That the system has changed. Now it's not tastemakers. Tastemakers are not making the decisions anymore, rarely making the decisions anymore. It's not based on individual subjective tastes. It's based on who consumes the most. Right. So we've we're changing the creator economy. I didn't change it. It's not my, you know, but like I'm just looking at times. It's also my job to not. impose my ideas, but also look at what is actually happening. So to answer your question, I see people blow up every day. Every day in their backyard with no funds, up to nothing, and transport their idea and vibe and culture and music authentically to the world. Obviously that that's really interesting. and I love to hear that. Wha what I'm what I'm scared of is obviously this sort of political opposition and, you know, what's happening right now in the world and how the algorithmic push is more and more seemingly designed by, you know, powers. Yeah. What's your reflection is about that? Because if if that sort of been a democratized opportunity to to be able to go viral and be being discovered, that might change over time. what's your reflections?

I mean this is yeah, you hit on a really good point, Jacob, of course. It's such a good question. how it fits into the African narrative, I must say I I don't I don't have enough you know, pan-African political kind of overview of how that works. but I would agree with you it is concerning that, you know powers I love the questions.

have the ability to influence what's happening on social media. it's a concern and it's a it's a relevant one. am going to be a business punk and radical optimist. I do feel like whenever govern governments or powers that be like powers that are see that there's a huge influence on the population, they want to infiltate it, but we kind of always come up with new things to to make it independent of that. We've seen that throughout history. We've seen throughout history that the the government always want to take control always wants to take control of media, right? This is also just the game. And we're all in a big simulation, I believe. And but there's always when it comes to tech, when it comes to the movement of the people. So we are now even seeing that people are able to organize off screen and actually meet in the real world and thousands and thousands and protest what they think is right or what they think they need for a future. And I think it's the same thing with the arts. What we're seeing right now is that there's a high demand in live performances as well. people are there's a kind of like Gen Z fatigue with the internet and they're organizing themselves offline. And we see that happening in Accra and and Lagos a lot, like where people are seeing the value of actually just using the internet as in as an informant, but then actually gathering people and and having the impact there and growing the impact there, which makes me very happy because I'm a live artist. I've I'm very bad with social media. So seeing that there is a power and there's a magnetism to actually organizing offline. And I think that's where the government cannot interfere, you know, the power of the people, the the the power of creation and community, which Africa is a wonderful place for.

That's where all the good creative stuff comes out. We often like when we're coming up with ideas, and this is one of the the many great things about, you know, being a co-founder with an artist as well, right? So when me and y'all come up with ideas, we're like, okay, but how do we make that more like, for lack of a better term, like more punk? And how do we like really drill into that and create another ecosystem out of that idea that that really stands out? And yeah. Whilst I do have the concerns and I share with Jacob, I think, yeah, yeah, you're right. I think this gives the the option for a new scene to break out or a new way of thinking. And I think we're seeing that I think we're seeing that even with genres in West Africa, and this is something that we're super excited about, is obviously the the massive success of Afrobeats over what the last seven, eight years. But now what we're seeing on the ground is like a much more alternative indie sound, which is so exciting. And and I think those are the kind of scenes that we really want to tap into and support. Mm. My prediction is that the next big African star is gonna be someone who plays guitar and sings. Yeah. So i this is really interesting. I and I think, you know, when I've been talking with guests about Africa or when I hear about Africa in general when it comes to the music industry, I think the narrative is often on export. And you know, I think what you're talking about is basically, you know, consumption within its own culture. And and I think that's quite interesting because obviously in order to educate a population, in order to sustain a business, it's not

enough that it we just export it to the to diaspora or you know randomly or not randomly become viral but but having this community consumption shows really matter. So let's say the the the concert concept of the West and buying tickets and coming to shows and have a structured industry around that, is that something that's really showing itself now? Big time. Big time. I mean, Dave just performed in Lagos. Like international acts are putting West Africa on the touring map. and that's something we've we've equally been working really hard to do with, you know, when we first bought over Denzel Curry from the States, like that was a big risk for us to, you know, make sure that we had everything in place that like an artist the size of Denzel Curry could work with. And I think, yeah, the the live side is something that's really growing. There's a demand for it. In sports, not only in music, we're talking about sports, we're talking about religious events, we're talking we're talking politics, right? People want to express themselves, people want to present their work, their books, their films. So there is that's why I always think in music industry you never you can never think singular, right? Like for me it was really important not to have network with just producers. I also wanted to know the venue owners. So I and which we are working with them still. Like when I first came to Ghana, I was like I said, I'm not only looking at one aspect. I'm not only looking at music. I also want to be connected to the athletes so that they we can do a pop-up together, right? You bring your people and and and I bring my people. And this, this, this spark and this notion that we are doing something for Africans is just like

Again, it's so community based that ticketing and all these like d I'm just inviting everybody like to partner with us because there's just such high demand for it and everything is so cross-cultural. And so and what it are the commercial terms? Because you you know, if you look at UK, right, you know, the a venue side has suffered quite a bit the last many years. Scandinavia, where I'm where I come from, like if we didn't have government subsidies, like the museums really exist, to be honest. So so what what is the commercial terms in West Africa when it comes to so can you run a venue or do you need to have subsidies still? Like ha what's the structure there? I think you can run a venue and I think there's a need for people to run venues, particularly around the kind of and I'm talking specifically in Ghana now. There's a real need for venues around 300, 500 capacity. It's not like you can just go viral and just show up in the national stadium, which is which is what happens. Artists need the experience of touring. Like it is a it is a crucial part of the artist's journey to You know, be able to play a show every week and be able to make a bit of money from that. But in terms of the economics, I think they do work. I mean, throughout December, every single big artist in Ghana plays their own massive headline show, which can range from five thousand people to twenty-five thousand people. And people show up, they buy tickets and you know, they don't just leave on a curfew at eleven o'clock. The show could go on all night. Like It's people show up for their artists and they support the local artists. And I think that is inherently a crucial backbone to the live industry. If you're supporting your local artists, it's gonna work.

And I also really like your question, Jacob, because we are very pampered in the West with subsidies and and and the government supporting us and understanding the relevance of art and music. And when I'm being asked that question, you know, even like from investors, like can we involve government? It's not that I am saying that the government, I'm not excusing the government because the government has a responsibility when it comes to culture and arts and to support and to subsidize, but we have so many. Actual problems in on the continent that I also want the government to focus on. I'm talking about roads and healthcare, I'm talking about education, I'm talking about gender equality, like all these things are very important. And I want focus to be on them. And think it goes back to the earlier question you asked. Entrepreneurship, like having convincing people to actually invest in Africa is to understand the brilliance of African entrepreneurship. Every single person manages to feed their family with very little. Like you have to be a good economist for that. You have to be able to survive without the government helping you. What do we get in in Europe? We get child support. We get like if you you're sick, we're insuranced, we are we are insured till the brim. We are we have so many packs. And people in Africa make it work with. out these perks. So imagine what they're able. I'm getting passionate. Imagine what they're able, imagine what they're able to do with a little bit of injection and help. I I think that's such an interesting point. And when I talk with with you know, I live in I live in Norway now. I'm from Denmark. They're not fundamentally different, but you know, Norway being probably the richest country in the world, entrepreneurship here is really weird. because entrepreneurship means that you you've had a great job at an oil company and now you sort of bored, so now you want to become an entrepreneur. Like that's that's that's the majority you know, I'm not lying when I'm saying like seventy or eighty percent of entrepreneurship.

And for me that's fundamentally different for what it means to it. And and when you look at let's say US, obviously I I'm not, you know, for the the lack of support you would get there. But like the culture is like you you gotta make it, like you don't have a choice. Yep. And I think that's really interesting if you break that into your comment about sort of West Africa is like if if the only real chance you have is is just to do it and succeed, I think that brings brings a different type of entrepreneurs and different type of momentum and and willingness to pay the price that we don't necessarily see everywhere else in the I love that you said that. And that's why I try to divide my time between Africa and America, because I also feel like in the community there are a lot of similar challenges, you know, in the in the art world. And I love the the speed of the American creator economy. I love the fluidity and the network and and and the the the the possibility that especially obviously my my focus is brown artists, black artists. I consider African Americans. As Africans as well, it says African Americans, the source of pop and soul and all this beautiful hip hop we music we're enjoying. It's these are f formerly abducted people from our continent. So I see I see that we have a lot in common, and I come here to do extensive research on how they were able to build their own economy. It's not like they received a lot of help, you know. black music industry, you know, the the the history of of Motown and all these things, these are valid informational, this is this is valid information for us to to do what we're doing. And I love the allegiance between African Americans and Africans. And I always encourage it on both sides, because I think we need each other to build what would at the end of the day benefit us all.

as we're sort of approaching the end of of the episode and thank you so much for being generous with your time and and your answers, if you were to some somehow in a quite neutral and realistic manner predict what the music industry looks like in five years from now in West Africa, how how would you describe it? I like his predictions. I don't know why he's being so shy now. Do know what? I'm I'm I'm thinking about it because and this probably underpins what my answer is, because at the moment in the music industry, everything's about trying to understand the AI and like you're kind of not allowed to say you like it, but everyone kinda uses it, and that's great, but it's here and it's here to stay, and we can't really stop it now. So I think this is more generally for the global music industry. And I think Africa will play a big part in it because I think that Africa gets AI. I think that AI is is crucial for Africa. I think the music industry, AI is gonna mean that people who couldn't afford to get in the studio or get a mixing engineer are going to be able to. So I think it is going to even further democratize in some respects the music industry. We talk about the democratization of the music industry through social media, right? You know, the gatekeepers are gone. I think AI is going to take that one step further. And I firmly believe that there's going to be an absolutely huge amount of music creators. And I think it's almost going to be like your Instagram page, you're going to be able to make a song for your post.

So inherently, everyone who's posting on social media will become an artist because there'll be a sound that goes with the post. So we we predict, and this is something we've spoken about a lot, that AI is going to really open that out. And I think there are going to be an insane amount of sound creators that need music industry infrastructure. But as an artist, I also have to highlight the balance and the counterculture that is going to grow off that. So you have the rise of the gamification of music, but which essentially is already happening. Like everybody thinks they're an artist on Instagram. I'm saying this with a smile on my face because as an artist, I also believe that it's really important for human beings to express themselves. And I love to see that people are feeling more emboldened to express themselves, right? I'm looking at it also as an educator, and and seeing that there is a need for self- self-expression and self-telling the story from your perspective. I think we are all very new to this, you know, like that's why everyone has an opinion. Everyone, you know, everyone is a commentator. you're you're either a commentator or a creator. That's how I feel social media has become, right? Or an observer. So we're gonna see that, but we're also going to see a counterculture that is based on actual The actual magic of handmade music. I see that every time. I'm I'm very lucky to be able to connect with a lot of like young artists who teach me a lot about how they see the world and and what they are passionate about. People are picking up instruments, people want to do jazz again, people wanna do spoken words again, which I find people are very political, very political put politically aware of what is happening on the planet right now and want to express themselves. In real life. So I think it's gonna be a vibe of both. So you're gonna have the first in five years, like I said, you're gonna have the first mega African indie superstar or band, like the Beatles. That's what I predict. Yeah. I kind of already also know who. and then you will have obviously the tech site, Tom touched on. So

Yeah, it's gonna split and they're both gonna go off and they're gonna become their own things, all under the umbrella of and the AI side will be like the gaming industry, absolutely massive. And then they'll like you as this, they'll be the real music side, which will I think equally be really progressive. That's that's really interesting. And I think Tom, when we when we spoke of that webinar, I was really curious to talk with you, and you because I I I truly believe that, you know, something will happen. maybe it's what you suggest and I think as an industry we need to grab the chance to invest, to be able to forward leading. and an Africa might be one of the places where there's an opportunity because still not a lot have opened their eyes for it. but but it's becoming more and more clear that this is getting obvious. Obvious there's there's always obstacles, there's always limitations to to doing investments and to taking chances. you know, but that's life of entrepreneurship. So That's the risk. That's it.

Thanks guys. it's been a pleasure. thank you for being so generous. Thanks for having me Us thank you for having us and thank you for being patient. Thank you.