How AI and Technology are Reshaping Live Music

And I think AI can be not only a solution for the live sector, but also a big trigger to reflect on more than what it could do, but about how live music is operated as a sector. And live music has this capacity to be a super incredible lab of new experiences that could then be translated to brands, to sport, to hospitality, or even to smart cities. But it has to be now. And how do we make it happen? That's a question for us today, I guess. AI in live music. What does that mean?

To be honest, I haven't heard a lot of talks about it, and I didn't know a lot before I went into this talk. But Ivan, he researches this space right now. And everyone I know respects Ivan so much. And I can guarantee you, this is a goldmine of information. Hey guys, welcome back to the Sound Connections podcast. I have tried to get this guest on for a while. Ivan, welcome. Hello, Jack Hub. Thanks for having me. I have been so intrigued about you and your career for the last couple of years, and we've talked a lot back and forth.

But today we're going to speak about a really interesting topic, which is AI in live music. And as I said to you before the call, I haven't really been able to find a lot of content on this that I believe is interesting. So, and I know you're an interesting person, so I'm going to assume you have a lot of good things to say. But before we get into the topic, Ivan, can you just, for the listeners who don't know you, who are you and what do you do? Thanks, Jacob. So first, about me. I'm a French guy living in Paris. I've been working at the intersection between music and technology for more than 20 years now.

Stayed in my career in a startup, 2004, mobile content distribution, ACA, RingTunes, and so much more stuff. And then I joined EMI, and I stayed there for 11 years, including the Warner version of it after the merger. And I was into everything digital from BizDev and then digital marketing and consumer strategy. So everything data at the end of my time there.

And then I switched to, it was a natural move for me to be, to become more a person to help others and help founders, help innovators, and help organizations to understand, so knowledge, and execute, so strategy and go-to-market innovation and transformation of their business into the music sector. So I was a consultant for five years with my company at the time called The Link, which is a Gojira album, so metal, metal.

And after that, I joined Utopia, one of the startups I was pretty much interested in as a big play into data and music. That chapter of my career is over, and I'm about to open the next one, and I'm super excited with that. But as for now, I present myself as the co-founder of Music Tech Europe, which is something I really, it really matters to me.

This is something we can talk throughout the conversation we're going to have about AI and live. And I'm also the co-founder and president of Metal Social Club, which is a network of metal-ed founders. Anyway, so innovation, music, and a little bit of head-banging, that's pretty much about me. Yeah, well, thanks for sure, you're dedicated to metal. That's all over your LinkedIn or social media. I think you talk more about that than you talk about actual tech and stuff.

Yeah, but that's also the important stuff. But, Yvonne, we'll just go a tiny bit into sort of why we talk about live today. But before we do that, can you just explain to me, what is it you're working on right now with live? What is it you're trying to achieve? What is it you're thinking about? Okay, so why we have this topic today? First, because it's really interesting. I think it's also because it hasn't been covered that much already. You haven't found many literature on this.

Also, because I'm involved with my colleagues of MusicTech Europe, especially MusicTech Germany and MusicTech France, in a project supported by EU as part of Live MX. And we are about to do a mapping of AI solution for the live sector, especially. And the project is called Innovation Mapping for the music European sector. But it's right now dedicated to live music. Also, it matters to me because when I was a consultant, most of my work was dedicated to live music.

I did, at the time, or it sounds like years ago, decades ago, I did a white paper on live streaming and virtual live experience that we released with Midem. So that topic has been around for me for quite some time. And I really, really think this is something that needs to be done now more than ever because, first, the live sector needs more help to cope and to deal with digital and transformation beyond the live streaming case that was more reaction to COVID.

And also because there is so much more into live music to explore than what we care to discuss with Gen.AI, which is super, super important, including everything related to rights and copyright. because live, because life covers many things. It covers fan engagements, it covers marketing, it covers production, it covers sound, it covers lights, it covers safety. So it's a lot.

And I believe as well, and that's the last thing to me that matters a lot, that live music can be a super big lab for, let's say, user experience beyond music. So live is, I think it's still an untapped portion of the music sector and of, let's say, the entertainment sector for innovation that is super interesting for all of us, for startups, for founders, I guess as well for BCs because it's a big market if we look at it in numbers.

So, but the first iteration of why is because I'm involved in this project that we are just now promoting and launching, we have a call and we will discuss more about it if you want how to apply and why but, yeah, this is the time and I think AI can be not only a solution for the live sector but also a big let's say impulse, how do you say, a trigger to reflect on more than what it could do but about how live music is operated as a sector because it questions a lot about the jobs not only about what Gen AI can do you see what I mean?

What a booker does what a promoter does what a stage designer does and what they're going to do together in the future That's so interesting and I'll start the deep dive conversation about some thoughts I've had you know, I have I have a background also doing live sound you know, and I've worked with upcoming artists for 10 years so I've been a very big part of let's say launching live concepts and sort of try to commercialize those and because I've been thinking about live lately and I've tried to improve with concepts and how I normally work in research or whatever you want to call it is just okay what are the experience and problems I've met and how would I go about right now conceptualizing how to alleviate those pains one of the pains that I see right now is that I'm fully convinced that storytelling and human connection is going to be one of the most important things as technology takes over and one of the one of the things to really create that

is live you know I think the importance of live is going to be more and more important when everything else becomes very blurry what is human what is not human and already now it's not human it's digital right but do you get what I mean yes but what is also very evident is production budgets are rising people getting more of an appetite for full storytelling which means there's a consumer movement towards I want to be served like this Dune cinema universe on stage which you can agree to or not you know but that's sort of where the consumer is going towards at least you know at least part of the world where I'm from which means okay there's some value there but as ATSIS wants to go there that's incredibly difficult and costs to get there to provide that storytelling so what we've worked with or I've worked with is sort of visual concepts of how would I for example deploy a fully coherent storytelling in a live artist let's say small to medium size so they can tell that full story they already have

the beautiful lyrics and the outline and they're incredibly interesting artists but the live show doesn't compare to the stories that might be disturbed other places should that be a thing that can maybe level the playing field and give the consumers a more deep dive understanding of that story that's sort of what we've been working on so that's just a concept I've been working on I've also practically been doing some work towards it but I just want to start with that to maybe start the conversation do you agree to some of those assumptions I'm working from yes absolutely yes to the extent that on the paper it's absolutely it makes a lot of sense and I really appreciate you go this way because to me technology as a driver of accessibility so also equality or inclusivity inclusion for meaning giving every artist the potential means tools and resources to develop their craft and their relationship to the audience the storytelling to a level

that will allow them to continue their journey and make some revenue out of it so a living I think it's everything I'm trying to be part of so technology as an enabler yes but then one of the key problems to that to me is not technology itself and it's not accessibility to technology neither it's a big question of which is an EU political policy term which is capacity building I think we discussed that in several of our conversations already it's in between education knowledge know-how skills so to me it's not how do you develop the tool right now but how you use it and I think it's a journey or it's a movement that needs

to go both ways to somewhere unknown which is technologists or startups researchers solution developers and artists should converge more because you see what I mean it is quite because there are so many technologies and usually I think a problem I see I observe from the music tech side so the tech side that we talk a lot about the technology AI it was blockchain it was metaverse it was web-free it was whatever you want NFTs artists they talk about something else they talk about their day-to-day life creativity relationships but there is something that it is about usage what you do with technology and this filtering has a lot to do with what you're developing with your even here this very podcast plus the different ventures I know you are part of or you are

developing meaning helping players from different angle joining forces to make things happen and this is also the job of Music Tech Europe as we speak to enable innovators and the music sector including artists to converge to have a dialogue a place to connect a place to understand each other and a place to experiment and develop tools that can be used not that can disrupt or not that can just scale they need to scale they need to be financed they need to get a reliable and sustainable business model but first they need to be real and I think that part is really difficult because super interesting I think we need more initiatives that I think will drive that how to say that experimentation

spirit because right now I think this is missing this is finance tools and solution B2C B2B B2A or B2 artist music industry is investing a lot into change even if some people still think that in music industry live music or the incumbents they do not innovate as fast as they should but there should be something in the middle about experimentation that will frame innovation to be applicable and so like a lab spirit every company like cars like big manufacturer stuff they do that they have research and development in music we have artists and repertoire R&R but this kind of demo thing experimentation we still don't know how to do it right anyway and live music should be that because this is up to me the best stage festival a venue

an arena a grassroots venue should be or can be even if it requires a lot of help and structure equipment investment they can be those sandbox or those kind of lab of new experiences new user journeys new stage design new expression new way to monetize because this is real we are not talking about a platform somewhere that assemble all the pieces together and absorb everything which it's a lot of places and somehow it could be a network of different places anyway but you see what I mean and live music has this capacity to be a super incredible lab of new experiences that could then be translated to brands to sport to hospitality or even

to smart cities but it has to be now and I think Europe by the way is the best place to make this happen because we have a great diversity of players a great diversity of festivals and a lot of technology related to live experience but maybe not yet into live experience gaming 3D sound design in Norway in Denmark which is quite close you have incredible technology for this audio visual and sound but it has to come faster to the market of life and how do we make it happen that's a question for us today I guess first of all I'm actually from Denmark originally so I'll take credit for both but I so much agree with the new technologies and that not being the actual value and it's sort of the in-between so let me give you a picture of how I think about it because I think the way

that I think about it is a good way to think about which is very specifically I scroll TikTok a lot but it's not people dancing it's basically just news AI news political news whatever so I use it for that I just feed by recognition algorithm with that so I pretty much every single day get updates on new AI tools and the way that I go about it is I don't go and check them I make a mental note this I don't go use energy on it and then as I see new things I get these aha moments once okay this could be paired with this and then I go check it out so it's sort of because I think about as things are moving right now and the cost of just developing anything proprietary chasing this big thing does not make sense right now for example AI Jake which we have so here the podcast we have AI Jake which is a news reader that's just you know normal technology but then we have this you know live conversation thing so we launched it five months ago which is live podcast and according to

both national and international media we were in daily mail we were the first podcast in the world that was live and talking and co-hosting with me and why were we that it's just that simple that I saw that API that API that API that you can do that together just do that cost of knowledge with that API and that brought it together and you know not because that sensation of itself to have an AI podcast but what it resulted in is now we're building a whole digital product for university in teaching and AI in the journalism communication department because we created a iterative live professor that has source material and can train people on the newest information in their industry so it's just searching these APIs these technologies how do you put them together okay you launch a proof of concept that could be a podcast host now we take it to university education and that's the same thing with live I believe without knowing specifically what it is that the way to follow the change that's happening is understanding how do we tie these existing

things together to create these new environments budget costs you know I want people to get paid but let's face it there's still not enough money so cutting cost is one of the ways for this to be more viable yeah yes and also to be fair to the live sector which is super broad and super diverse but it's already a lot of there are already a lot of technology or techniques into play like but this sector which is interesting to me first of all when I come from the recording industry 11 years in major labels and you know also that our industry our ecosystem is still super fragmented like or at least super sigmatic live is not recording and recording is close to publishing but they are different and they think they are very different to me they are

they are all part of the same artist to fan relationship anyway but still what is really what struck me when I first started to be more involved in live music projects related to innovation and technology is the way they talk about live sector talks about or approach innovation even the term they don't basically in most of the major labels you have some innovation people usually in the headquarter in LA or New York or somewhere in London or at least in each of the territories you have a digital department and you don't see that much into a live sector Primavera Sounds they have a chief innovation officer he is a super incredible knowledgeable person and open person but it's pretty rare you don't see that much also when you talk to different small medium

businesses in live innovation is some kind of things not part of their daily life even if they already do it like most of the ticketing approach it's digital and it's data driven they use digital marketing every day maybe not to the point they could grow but it's part of their daily life and the production of music it's super technical you have a lot of innovation already happening every day into sound production the light management light design and so on even in every aspect of a tour but they don't call that innovation it's more bottom-up and it's more like hands-on and I think it's great but for startups then if you take the other side of the fence and I don't like fences at all I don't like this separation

but this is how it goes it's hard for them to project their business or the technology or their idea into life sector because they don't see the angle and when you take the other different part of the music business you have more startups doing now we are back to everything promotion or discoverability which is super important and super interesting but if you look at every startups in the discoverability segment few of them are talking about life even if it is absolutely part of the life cycle of a music project and it's crucial for artists but they usually mention playlists they usually mention social media they usually mention a lot of things but not so much life when we talk about AI everything now is about the robot playing the piano kind of article so Gen AI which is super

massively groundbreaking but still is anyone talking about AI used into generating sound design stage design or how it is potentially it could be used or is currently used by more and more artists nowadays in their stage design and I've been at Hellfest so yes a metal festival again last summer this summer and one of the most innovative bands in metal in general Avenged Seventh Fold they use their life in their background video it was quite amazing and it was not presented as something breaking it was just an experimentation so maybe live they talk less about tech and innovation I don't say they do more but I think there is an opportunity for our community the music tech community to open that conversation in a

more structured way with the live sector also to ask the live sector what they would need and how they would like to develop and co-design the solution with technologists and founders so we end up having let's say creating value for the fans value for the artists value for the promoters value for the venues and so on and how AI takes its place into this is a big question because as you said if you search AI live music on Google you end up pretty much with nothing and I think the best way I see moving forward including for our the thing I started to introduce at the beginning of our conversation so the mapping of AI solution for the life sector that we are currently opening with

Music Tech France Music Tech Europe and Wise will be to structure that not by AI segments but by life sector activities so it is more concrete and we can relate AI solutions to a specific practice so it will go from booking you see production safety and I guess I hope it will help some technology providers and startup funders to identify themselves for oh I can be useful and I can have a business case and a market fit into this life sector even if maybe some of them they didn't think about it yet yeah there's so many use cases here and I gotta do something I haven't done before the podcast is actually I'll throw out a lot of ideas and the reason why I throw out a lot of ideas is just to have conversations and I'll just gut feeling ideas that

I have on this base and I have researched so I might I might bumb some of them but I have experience with production let's say light production one of the biggest headaches once in a while is you get to different venues with different light setups with different motors with different things is there a way to have a pre-programmed pre-aesthetic show that can adapt yourself to whatever motors you have available whatever systems is an AI that can take your consistent light show converted to whatever you have available so you give the input or you can even digitally map it and that's the thing it could even be from let's say you have a writer perspective from the venue like there's a tech spec like you can check with your own writer do the misalign or things we're going to miss like you know automatic warning bells it can be something integrated directly let's say a Yamaha mixer where you can have a system to double check your mixes these are suggestions you do in order to not

have masking there's so many things in it everything yes for pre-production guidance because one of the things that I struggle with we also own a small booking company is the processes of I booked a gig I'm doing the show all these small steps that needs to be but if you have let's say very good documentation and very good input to a system it can help you do those processes guide you through it do this is what you need to be aware can even flag things so I there's so many manual processes in live music that are we need to design this we need to light designer come three hours before everyone else because we need to reprong the addressed with technology but at the hands of an industry professional that already has that vision there's

just so much resources going into doing the actual manual work that's in all aspects of live right now yeah and to make that right I think the best way forward to me it has always been my take on innovation we need and we have to involve the professionals so the life sector professionals and you are one of them as well as a technologist you are a blend of the two so we understand not only the value chain but the life cycle or everything taking place from A to Z and usually you have something beyond Z but anyway so we understand the full process also because sometimes innovation technology is already used and by the way every step you describe there are already some kind of solution in

every of them or the historical providers of the core technologies are also evolving for production for some design for lighting etc and there are newcomers and there are innovators but we need to structure that and make that map properly so we can also connect the dots so we can develop plug-in systems so companies can visualize the potential partnerships or integration or API plays they can develop and even there might be at a point AI to rule the AI of music live productions I don't know but the first step I think for me and for our group which matters a lot and that's why I really think this mapping is a great opportunity for our music tech community and for the sector is

to map things out so we can develop a better understanding of what are the different use cases and who are the different solutions out there and which are the solutions that are missing as well because the mapping is not only what exists it's also what does not exist today and should exist because we're going to get the input from the people who are running the gigs and every day and artists and venues and festivals and I think it's really interesting obviously there are already a lot of players who are pushing the envelope a little bit further because maybe they have the means to do it or because this is part of their mindset I had a chance to moderate a super interesting conversation during Wallifornia Music Tech this July people listening to the podcast if you don't know Wallifornia this is one of the best music tech conference I know in the

world for now organized by Linsquare and Noshak so Coralie and Jérôme big up it's in Belgium in Liège and I was sitting with people from Tomorrowland and people from Coachilla and also Marisol anyway some experts in live sector and basically we discussed pretty basic stuff you know why because what is really interesting we talk the real shit sorry but we discuss CRM we discuss audience management we discuss booking but using data AI at play but dealing with essential tasks and I think this is really interesting for music startups when you go back to your slide deck so when you present to your to VCs be sure

that it corresponds to some kind of reality or need because at two points and I guess most of the startups out there they are B2B they are service providers double sheds that it might correspond now or tomorrow because maybe you anticipate a future need to some real use case and what we want to do also with Music Tech Europe and this goal is to be sure that kind of knowledge in the form of a mapping is also a step further to make that dialogue and go to market real you see what I mean it's not only a mapping for the sake of mapping things it's also an invitation for the players to talk to each other and share knowledge from both sides I need this solutions and problems so we can connect the two and we make them work together yes yeah and there's

so much truth to that because you know you can build startups in different ways and we also build with us startups in different ways we have one company we own that's basically building technology for the future which is incredibly difficult because you know it's something I'm fully convinced will happen there's already use cases now but like that's a long journey like two years you know we've done product launches but two years of just you know getting capital developing iterating and like we're at a point now where like okay now we actually have market launch like for real that took two years then we have another product which has been developing on the side for like five months we haven't even launched a company yet and we have four big enterprise clients we're like we're fucked like we need to work fast because it's a very practical tool do you what I mean so there's these two very different ways of building startups and they have easier value but I believe in live music I think the value of the practical tools here now to solve big issues with technology is probably more valuable than this long term thinking is my assumption like we have things we can actually do now that

relatively quickly can do something great yes is my assumption it's a good assumption even if you cannot only develop a project or sustainable company and business with only a short-term vision of solving what the current bottlenecks you need a vision for what you stand for but it can be more some kind of key values it's not a vision of what it's going to be but pillars of your vision where you want to sit in the ecosystem and what is your the reason why you do that so it's not maybe already yet a use case of the future but at least it has to be your contribution to that world and to that business industry I want to be I want to help the life sector to deal with audience it's big

And right now I'm going to start doing CRM or enabling better whatever premium super fan you know the super fan buzzword super fan experiences this is today because this is a business opportunity of today but in the future I'm going to do that and maybe it will evolve it will pivot in the near future but you need to stick with something real and I think it's not that easy because to do that you need intelligence in many ways to have a market fit you need to understand the market so you need to get intelligence about it and it comes from different sources I think I hope and we will work hard to do that Music Tech Europe will be part of those resources and hub of intelligence collaborative intelligence

And collective intelligence but you have also some you have media research you have a lot of other sources available but it's not easy to find your way through that as a startup also because the industry players are not potentially yet opening their world and the way they work enough I wish the industry and we are talking here about the lab industry will in the near future also take the stage and maybe also through your podcast to talk about what they do and what they will need or what they will love they will dream of developing and I think there are some places to do that really so going back to Wallifornia I was super impressed by the presentation of the initiative from Tomorrowland they

Opened a place an incubation and visionary program but it's a hub and it's really interesting because it's beyond live music their take is music can be a place where we prototype tomorrow society how to manage water how to manage crowd management how we manage information how we manage heart and I was like wow guys this is too much but that's why this is your future lab why but they start with some concrete and tangible steps and use cases I think this is really interesting and some live musicals who embody that anyway but there are so much things to be done yeah that's

Really interesting Yvonne I know the live industry quite well and I have an assumption of it and it might not be right but when I consult a lot of founders about let's say the recorded music industry and they try to get in here it's very evident that they can be very complex to come as an outsider and sort of understanding the complexities of what they're getting into but my assumption is that live to some degree might be even more complicated to get from the outside because there's so many B2B propositions that are not as visible as what the recorded music industry like you know the recorded music industry is very inherently B2C even though there's a lot of B2B functions and there's a whole industry like live is more B2B than B2C to a big degree my question is do you believe it's more complicated for founders as outsiders to go into live

Industry and have an understanding of what needs to get done so one big question and I will go into two sub answers apparently yes it's not yet my take it's what I hear from founders I was lately involved in the music tech hub academy and I will be again involved in the next edition of the program as a mentor and I had the chance to mentor four startups in the life sector and all of them they struggle with they've been struggling before at the beginning of their journey with the complexity and through their development they struggle still with penetration so opening doors

Which is two different things right so to your question yes because when I talk to startups into recording and recording you are also publishing which is they are still different but anyway yeah they approach their business more as B2C and they can think they have a better chance to make it so here comes my second segment of an answer apparently it seems to be more complex than recording my take I think it's half true because recording and publishing is in terms of rights management it's super hard to get into if you want to be right if you want to approach things with a laser sharp angle live music it's not simple it's more fragmented right and you have a lot of closed doors so

It's more a human aspect of complexity and recording and publishing to me it's also a legal and technical complexity with metadata and so on you have also metadata in life but don't get me wrong but what I'm trying to say here is we can turn this into an opportunity for the life sector if we manage to get that dialogue effect and that cooperation aspect on track and make sure that this open innovation spirit can be fed by us people like you with your initiative what we do at music tech Europe and music tech Europe Academy the mapping initiative so we facilitate curiosity is not a business word it is you have to be curious so you open your doors start-ups they need to listen more about the reality

And of the music live music sector they need to understand the difference between a grassroots venue in a little town in Germany and a big arena in Paris it's the same and different anyway you see I'm in the rear and the life sector needs to be more curious and knowledgeable about what tech is and could do it has a lot to do with training with learning and so on but when we will get there I think it will unleash a lot of potential value and opportunities because I hope there will not be any fear of disruption as much as in the recording industry sure you see what I mean the replacement like even if AI can have a lot of impact on jobs on both

Sides so that's yeah but I definitely believe that just from my understanding where things are moving if it comes to the comparison of how the live sector will be affected compared to the recorded music sector it's in the live music favor for this simple argument that I believe that people will search towards these experiences more as a reaction to what's not this connection it's a very basic assumption but I think you can draw a lot of other assumptions from it so what you're saying which I think is really interesting is your assumption without you know I've gone fully into research is there's more clearly inherently a human thing to be addressed in live music that it's closed doors it's a visitation of discussions that might provide this next level of opportunity and innovation within live music that's sort of a thing

That you can help address through this knowledge and mapping and the initiatives which I think is quite promising because that's a different way of solving it for the recorded or publishing music industry I hope so and also which is another layer it's a big one maybe through that process we will see and realize not me but the communities and the ecosystem that this is all connected this is one big conversation so while we will enable more initiatives in the life sector to foster super fun initiative better management of audiences there is no other route or other way than understanding that's the same audience potentially or kind of there is a big

Overlap with the recording marketing efforts or audience strategy efforts so cooperation and collaboration is part of the equation even if the bottom line is not coming from the same source potentially a recording is different and this is what I tried and let's maybe not open that box now but this is what I tried to address while I was doing my white paper 2020 on live streaming live streaming oh gosh it's not only about a digitalization of live it's an audience conversation meaning it's a consumer conversation and those are music fans basically and an artist a fan streaming live streaming can be made potentially a connection so one plus one could equal three and not minus two anyway so I

Guess this thing we need to address specifically to live because otherwise it will be not relevant enough I hope it will also it will enable some cross sectorial opportunities and businesses to develop and thrive throughout the value chain of music because right now it's still really segmented and it has to change it's so interesting because if there's one thing I'm bullish about with live or recording is the missing connection between those two you've mentioned before with like marketing maybe not as effective but one of the things that I believe is sort of lacking in most of the value propositions or product ideas from the super fan economy of startups is like okay so the underlying data that you're supposed to build this on where are going to get that from the quality data I believe

That the best the easiest way to say there's a fan relationship here and you know ticket systems concert motors artists they don't have an effective way at scale to sort of make sure that transfer of knowledge and understanding and digital personas work together and I believe it's a very simple incredibly complex solution but if you just as a concept is incredibly simple there's so much value of data on the live side it is by no means across almost every single company I've heard of not utilized towards other sectors that could have so much benefit from this it's also from live data can be transferred to advertising companies within certain cars that believe that audience is a purchase like the understanding of that audience the monetizations for the access promoter ticket system venues whatever

That have some part of that data ownership monetize that in so many different ways that does not happen so that's my underlying technology assumption that if companies or the industry at large start cracking that solution and I have my own start building that direction whether we'll succeed or fail no one knows but my assumption is if you start doing that's an incredibly fast value add and that can strengthen everyone in this ecosystem especially live yes so no need to develop much on that because it's obvious to me everything is just said also it's always important to look at what has been done in the past or history to learn from history to approach the future meaning there are a lot of initiatives that have been around for decades that are already tapping this like the med club from Metallica is all about this the

Way some bands are approaching their super fan club across live and merch and live streaming and recording and publishing and everything else has been developed already in some ways but not as a framework or not as a platform or not as a framework as things that can be scaled yet there are new attempts now it's funny because it's like cycles when I was a major label guy I was in charge of consumer strategy meaning super fans stuff and CRM and audience management and everything paid media and advertising so relationship also with brands exploring everything big data right and at Warner Music and Warner was pretty good with this connection between live music data and audience with recording initiatives so it was I left 2016 and we've been doing

Some stuff before that so it was there but it's not something that's pretty common and I think it's a matter of organizations not technology they don't talk to each other also you talk about advertisers or brands and live music data I know for sure and I've seen some presentations that some big promoters are already there like big time big time pretty advanced but they don't talk too much about it and maybe you don't know too much about it and I can recommend some people to invite to your podcast to talk about it maybe so there are a lot of things being developed and by festivals as well anyway so but it's not in the news it's not in the headlines journalists prefer to talk about again the robot playing the piano and all the risk not the potential we are talking a lot about the risk and it has to be addressed and we need to address the

Risk and we need to address the regulation I've been into policy for quite some time now and it matters to me a lot but still we need to address the potential and what I think I really like your podcast for we need to share best practices so not everything has to be reinvented so we don't need to reinvent the wheel all the time if there are some promoters venues startups doing some stuff properly let's share that knowledge and make that common it's not that easy anyway and but to your point absolutely yes data into life is a gold mine yeah it's cracking that at scale across fragmented systems is going to be difficult it's a big but yeah I totally agree I believe if you talk about a concept that can bring value budget the best I think that is one of the music industry that I am the

Most interested in yeah and one remark here I truly believe also let's not forget my point is let's not forget the role of managers as well in this move of connecting the dots yeah managers are also part of this empowerment through data and technology role towards the artist or artists themselves as entrepreneurs but I had a lot of really interesting conversation with Jake Bauman I don't know if you had him on your podcast yet yeah managers can play a super interesting role in that connections between live publishing recording relation fan relationship as orchestra as a conductor basically to orchestrate this realm

Of data complexity into something valuable and meaningful for the audience and for the artist I think Ivan you and me could talk for hours about this and we probably will at one point but I think this has been incredibly interesting just to open the conversation sort of explore some of the potential gold mines some of the potential solutions and maybe just also point to why things might not have been moving from an innovation perspective as much as it should but I'm incredibly interested to follow your mapping your research you're doing and we're also partnering now with PhysiTech Europe Academy for a few episodes talking about the accelerator so I really believe in the cost of what you do and it's very alive with my mission Ivan thank you for being on it took some time there's a lot of things that need to be sorted out but I'm incredibly happy to have you on yes I'm glad we did it and more to come right this conversation is an open one and let's

keep the ball rolling and if you can I will I will share the link to the call to get the solution to fill in our mapping in the comments whatever and yeah I see you around somehow sometime maybe no way soon yeah maybe talk soon bye bye