WISE Festival: Investing in the Future: Navigating AI Trends in Music Tech

Okay, great. Let's see if we can get some more people from lunch out here. It's good to see the people that's already here. I believe this is a really interesting panel, so I think people would love to hear it as well. But I'll just, I'll slowly start, make a slow introduction, give people the opportunity to come in. But this is a panel called Sound Investment. We're going to talk about what makes up a sound investment in the music tech space, especially with the perspective of AI.

So I'm just going to drag this out like 30 seconds more, give people an opportunity before I make introductions. But we have some great guests on board. I'm looking forward to the next 45 minutes with you guys. Yeah, just to give a small brief introduction of who I am. I'm a founder, like many of you guys. I work within the music tech space. I've been lucky to onboard a lot of investors in what I do and have built up an idea of what works. But there's some people here that probably know as a lot more than me how it actually works.

So that's what we're going to talk about today. I will introduce some of the guests. We have Savia Peters from LeanSquare. You're the CEO of LeanSquare. And you have over a decade of experience investing in this space. And you're also the co-founder of Wallifornia. So thank you for being here. Thank you, too. We have, I'm going to butcher the name, Thierry Pujod. You're the founder of the Pan-European Investment Network Media Deals. And you're an expert in financing investing in the creative industries. We have Hazel Savage, who is, yeah, VP of Music Intelligence at SoundCloud and also co-founder of Museo that got acquired by SoundCloud.

And now you are also an angel investor in different music tech companies. So thank you for doing that. And then we have Florence Dager, managing director of Deutsche Telekom Hubraumfonds. And you lead strategic early stage venture investments. So, guys, we're going to talk about something interesting today. There's a lot of hype in the industry, in all industries, and especially with AI. There's a lot of trends that comes and goes. And you guys need to sort of navigate that space as investors.

So I'm curious to know, what do you look for in a founder and in a company, especially from the perspective of AI trends? Sever, maybe we start with you. What do you look for in a founder or in a startup? So whatever the kind of startup, because I know that we have to talk about the AI, but the first things that we're looking for when we analyze a company, if we want to invest in it or not, is the team.

That's the first criteria that we are looking for, the team. In terms of experience, but also in terms of the capacity to prove us that they can achieve the goal, that they can execute the plan that they present to us. So the team is the most important things that we are looking for. We prefer to invest in a good team, but maybe with a project, a basic project, than on a huge project with a bad team.

So all the criteria are always the same in terms of project, in terms of market, in terms of answer to the people on the market, in terms of revenues, because in Linzware we are late seed funds, so we are looking for startup with product, with commercial traction, with milestone achieved on the market. And for sure, we are a tech investor, so we are looking for the tech and what kind of tech they propose to us.

Thierry, do you have any other metrics besides that? Well, of course, the team is very, very important. It's clear. I think the one part is really about the execution. I think Xavier mentioned it. I think it's a very important part, because obviously you can have a great idea, but at the end, if it's not really well executed or executed on time, etc., I think it's a real question. I think the timing, I mean, of course, it depends, but I think the timing is always very important.

And talking about AI, I think it's a question, you know, too early is definitely maybe too early, but too late is also not very good. So looking at the timing in the market, I think is quite an important thing. After, in terms of technology, I know that we're going to talk more about it after, but I think today what is important is to have a technology that is well-developed, that could be well-continued to be developed, because the thing with technology is that, as you know, it never stops.

And I think it's one of the points is really to understand if the technology is really right for the time and that is able to develop further for the scalability for later. So I think whatever is the technology, I think it's very important that we can count on it and develop it further so that we don't have to restart and rechange everything, because that happens quite a lot. So just to understand that completely, so you say technology needs to have the ability to be developed, build upon, iterate further than product you're building.

So there needs to be sort of an extra step possible, at least on a theoretical level? Or what do you mean by that? I think it goes at the same time with the product development. I mean, today, I think most of the companies we see, I mean, we do things in audiovisual, music tech, video games as well. So a lot of projects that are between content and technology. So I think different from Xavier, for example, we are looking at, I will not say content, but really also not just the technology.

So it's really developing the product and making sure that the product will develop and will grow with the right technology. Okay, that makes sense. Okay, do you want to comment on that? Maybe, so I still agree with Thierry. I mean, the technology is not the only thing that we are looking for. I mean, the technology has to solve something. And so it's not just a technology that we buy, but it's an answer to the market and it's an answer to a need in the market that technology can achieve. It's all about that.

That makes sense. About timing, Hazel. Because you had an AI company, well, you still have an AI company that you sold and your timing was good. Could you comment on timing for me with AI and music tech? Well, you say that, but we were just backstage now, Thierry and I, and we were saying I was probably a little bit too early. Because I was saying when I started building an AI company in 2018, nobody cared. No one was remotely interested. It was really hard to get anyone to pay attention. And in like the last 12 months, I've never had so much interest and activity and requests to talk to me because AI is the hot new thing.

So I feel like potentially, maybe I was a little bit too early, but to build on what the other panelists were saying, when we also raised investment, you know, I'm an incubator company, so we've done Entrepreneur First, which is a UK-based incubator, but we did it in Singapore. And the lead VC, WaveMaker Partners, that were our lead investor, they invested in five companies out of our cohort. And of the five, we were the only pre-revenue at Seed.

And the reason being because they loved the team. So I was a sort of a domain expert founder with 10 years music industry experience. My co-founder was our CTO with 10 years experience building AI. We literally had the whole company right there in two people. We had sales, marketing, product development, everything. There was no, ah, well, we're going to need to hire a good salesperson and we're going to need to hire... Like we covered everything. There was no overlap in our talents. And so we were told we got invested on the strength of the team because we didn't have any revenue yet.

So I think I also, I'm not sure I would recommend raising a lot of money pre-revenue. That was not fun. But, you know, I think, yeah, timing is important. Florian, what's your opinion about what you look in a company you want to invest in of the qualities that can you possess? Besides, I'm going to ask you, besides the team, besides the technology and the timing, do you have anything else? Yeah, what came to my mind is when you talked about timing, right? I mean, you also need to be aware of kind of like the trends and timings in the venture industry and from the venture side.

And I mean, obviously, everybody knows that the keyword of AI, like you said, right? If you just put the keyword AI on your pitch deck, everyone is kind of like is getting interested. But I mean, you also need to know that I would say a really high percentage point of the VC industry is not educated enough at the moment around AI. I mean, that's totally normal, right? And I also have to say it, even like for myself, I totally admit, right? I mean, we are more like a generalist investor. We are looking kind of like for explorative investments for Deutsche Telekom, so topics that we might go into as a corporate in the future, but don't have a business at the moment.

I mean, I studied computer science like 20, 25 years ago and so far with all the trends, I would have said, hey, at least I have kind of like a good bullshit detector, right? If a technical founder explains me something, I can somehow feel if this is somehow feasible or not. Honestly, in the last one or two years, if it really comes to foundational AI models or something like this, I'm totally admitting that I'm totally lost, right? And I would say this is true for 90, 95% of all partners at VCs right now.

And VCs are always, even by trying to go into the next topic, are always trying to base this on a certain type of pattern recognition, right? That's kind of like the superpower of a VC that obviously you have seen a lot more than the typical founder. You've seen a lot of pitch decks, lots of companies, lots of successes, lots of failures. So you are somehow trying to look at something new and turn on your pattern recognition machine and say, hey, is this somehow comparable to something I have seen five or 10 years ago?

And those kind of patterns still need to be figured out kind of like in the AI space. There are a few ones where this works perfectly well. I think that's the reason why you saw also those super big tickets, investments into AI companies who were more or less just buying chips at NVIDIA, right? Because that's a model that a lot of VC financed 10, 15 years ago when it came to the next, yeah, like an AWS or Azure or Snowflake or all these kind of companies you have seen in the past. But for example, really for companies trying to decide does it make sense to stay more on, let's say, put a fancy application or user interface on top of an existing AI model, modify that in a certain way or really go deep in terms of technology and don't even have the right business model and licensing model behind it, it's super tough for VCs at the moment to make investment decisions.

I'm just going to stray away from the topics we discussed just quickly and it's not to plug myself. I'm a founder and I have, in the portfolio companies we have, we have 18 investors, angels, family office, and super angels. We don't have any VCs. And I've spent a lot of time educating my investors into the space I operate in. But that obviously is different from bigger investment funds and VCs. So my question is, anyone can grab it, is it worth the time for founders trying to educate VCs in their space?

It depends. Which is a very difficult answer. But I felt like when we were pitching our company, I remember there was a family office that I met with and it was such a weird meeting. It was in Singapore. It was two hours long. There wasn't enough chairs in the room, so I was sat on the floor. That's just a really weird memory that's come back to me. But I had my laptop on the table, but I was on the floor and I was, you know, trying to show this investor. And I was there for about two hours and right near the end of the two hours, he still couldn't grasp the difference between a record label and a recording studio.

And I was like, this isn't going to work. And that's fine. You know, this guy's never met someone in the music industry before. However, they made their money is not in the music industry. So sometimes it can be, it depends. If this guy wants to invest in music, am I going to have to spend a significant portion of my time as a founder on the phone with this guy every day trying to teach him everything I learned in the last 10 years? Or is he just going to give me the money and let me get on with it? And I feel like it's the same with AI.

There are definitely some investors who will learn quickly, who are super savvy. I mean, I loved our lead investor Wavemaker partners. They just would grasp onto things so quickly. and be able to workshop it with you. And so as I say, I think it depends on the investor. Interesting. Thierry? Yes. I mean, definitely it's not easy but I think it's necessary for the sector to have more investors involved in any case because in the music tech or as I say, we're doing more creative industries, definitely we are lacking a certain more investors to be able to talk to more people.

And of course, VCs are very different from family office and business angel because obviously it's not their money so they have different plan of what they want to invest in so it's a bit less flexible and come a bit later. So what we do because we need to have more investors, I mean, I'm running as well a music tech in acceleration program across Europe that is supported by the European Commission and what we do and what we do is we are trying to do investors-only sessions online that we do at the moment sometimes with people with experience to discuss a bit of the trends and how to work together, et cetera.

But we also do sessions with people who are not into the sector but are curious, intrigued, you know, and of course, I mean, I guess they have some kind of, you know, interest in some way which, you know, for music is a lot of personal interest sometimes because I find out that many people want to talk to them and say, oh, you know, I love music, et cetera. So there is something about that and trying to discuss together with these investors and also bringing maybe one or two with more experience and to try to educate or give them some information about that and we, every time, we find always, you know, a couple that at the end say, oh, yes, it's interesting and I want to know more and the next step is really to see how to get them on the syndicate to basically jump on the project maybe with a very small investment.

So I don't know you said you had 18 investors so that's a nightmare I would say but so that means you have a lot of follower investors and that's a good way to get people to learn and to get to know how to invest in the sector. So I think education is possible. It takes a lot of time. You cannot push them, et cetera but I think through example and discussion I mean, especially as I say we develop this idea of having discussion without startup is quite good because in fact as soon as you have startups here like here people have maybe a different approach or what they say et cetera when they are together alone it's a little bit different I guess.

Yeah. We already touched a bit about upon patents and sort of the I'll call it proprietary technology that you can sort of own to some degree and protect. my question is right now with a lot of AI you can have a lot of AI companies AI empowered companies however you want to define it and there's different aspects of building with AI and one of them is building your own tech that you can patent. how important is that in an investment decision when you want to invest in a company with what technology they own have created themselves?

You can go. Yeah. I mean like again this differs from investor to investor obviously but I would say for the vast amount of investors who are more generalists the technology on its own doesn't play the decisive factor. I guess especially in AI but that's just my gut feeling my uneducated gut feeling as I said before would be that most of the foundational technology might go the route of open source anyway I see that kind of like as a trend maybe or at least into models where I would say again patterns that we have seen in the past so kind of like if you look at the whole development of the internet per se of Web3 or whatever you could always see there were parts of it that were more like open sourced free to use for everyone and then there were certain for example

like developer buckets or something that the big players focused on and said hey yes obviously this like cloud computing storage that's more or less the same everywhere but we as Microsoft or Amazon or whatever or Google give you special tools to make better use of it as a developer so that's going to be our USP right I think we will see the same trends and business models in the AI space as well so there might be investors or there certainly are investors who are super technical and are really looking for the next technology in AI but I think the vast majority of investors will rather look for smart use of AI technology for smart products smart business models smart user interfaces and care less about what's actually under the hood that's really interesting but if you go down the route of having open source technology built on then the competition question really comes into play as it always does but maybe even more Savi assuming that

you are of the same opinion how would you think about the competition space in that case for this question I mean we have to look at it in terms of cost if I have to think about as an investor I mean having his own technology cost a lot of money take a lot of time and the risk for that is that the team always want to develop again and again and again to have the best technology but the only things that they have to think about is to sell a product to go to the market and sometimes it's easier to use an open source technology to go faster on the market because the only things that we are looking for as an investor is the answer that we give to the market and the solution to give to the market and there is a lot of open source technology that is really great to solve a problem on the market the question is if we want to sell a tech or not

the cost having his own tech or not the reactivity for the tech I mean if you have your own tech inside the company it's more reactive if you want to change something or if you want to add something it's easier also to answer a question for your customer if you have your own technology after if you have open source you can also use all the community that also use this open source technology I mean there is no good answer for this question even if the question is really good but we have to look at it in terms of cost in terms of timing on the market and I'm not an expert with you guys sorry I'm just going to make a presumption conclusion on my side so what I'm hearing as a founder is the cost is important but also I'm going to add my own the time is important the speed in this space in order to have a competitive advantage so I'm just going to make my own interpretation it sounds like open source is probably not

a bad idea if it is like building a company that has product market fit quite fast with this new technology am I assuming wrong yeah I was going to say I feel completely differently which is I think where I would come from but I will caveat that with my startup was a proprietary AI model so of course I would have a preference for this type of technology but also as well now that I do angel investing and I've invested in five companies in the last two years I also say I probably get sent about 20 decks a week and I also say that if it's outside of my remit I'm generally not interested and my remit is proprietary AI models in music technology and this is angel investing and how it differs from VC so one of my investments I'll use as an example audio shake when I first met the founder Jessica who is phenomenal she was VP at Google comms for 11

years she's just an exceptional individual and they didn't even have a business they just built an AI that could separate an MP3 into its component parts and that was a proprietary model using AI to do something that was previously not possible to do so I was like I'm in take my money you know like that meme but that's because I knew that they would figure out the business on top of that this model is impressive enough and strong enough and she's impressive enough so it had the team and it had the tech and so I just totally believed they could do it and so that's what I look for in an investment and we've got a founder in the audience today from one of my portfolio companies so Master Channel again another proprietary AI model for mastering music and so if I love the team and I love the proprietary tech then that's all I need as an angel to invest however I do have a couple of investments I've made

of course that break this rule and you know so for example you know I'm an investor in a music tech company called Unheard now I ignored it for a long time it's not proprietary AI it's not you know it's a solo founder it doesn't tick any of my usual boxes but they pitched me the product one day and I was like that does look really good I really like that and then they were like and this is nearly two years ago they were like we're doing 40 grand a month revenue and I was like I'm in that is insane traction so I will also break my own rules so it's you know but I do love it I love it when a debt comes in and it's a proprietary AI model that's when I'm excited Unheard is a really great example for that but also maybe for an investor we have to think about our exit strategy inside the VC so a lot of VC has a closing time and so they have to look at the disinvestment

period that they have to sell the company for Linsquare it's a little bit easier because we are an evergreen firm so we don't have any closing time so we have time to exit but we have to exit and we have to make money because we are a VC and so sometimes when we make a due diligence for a company we look at the technology inside technology or open source technology and sometimes it's better to go to a property technology because the value of the company will not be maybe on the revenue of the company but the quality of the technology so it depends on the company but for sure a company who has a good timing with a good technology with patents is better to exit for a VC than just using open source and make revenues it depends yeah so we have around between 15 and 20 minutes left so we're going to cover one more topic and we're going to open for questions so if anyone has any questions you can start preparing them I'm going to warn you they need to be precise and they need to be short so we can

answer them fast okay is that good so let's go into the last topic and that is the central role of AI in music tech startups is this important for the future does companies need to have AI in them it's an obvious probably answer to that but at least does the majority of things interesting right now need to have that in mind so who wants to answer that I would say one of the worst things you could do is say that you have AI because you think it's what investors want to hear and you don't actually have any AI and I sometimes I might get a pitch deck and I'm like AI music tech yeah let's do a call and I get a call and they basically want me to give them the money to build an AI and I'm like well you don't really have an AI at this time and I say you know just to give you some advice when you pitch to other VCs I wouldn't claim that you have something when you don't even have an MVP a minimum viable product so I definitely don't shoehorn it in

that's worse than not having it at all and yeah so that would be my take on it I would say saying you are an AI company will sound really soon like a company 20 years ago pitching I'm an internet company right so it's obviously something that will play a role for more or less every company and every industry that will be around in a few years from now right because you will find applications for AI tools in more or less every product and industry you could think of if you're not that specialized AI tech company with something super proprietary exactly don't pitch yourself as an AI company but I think what the world is looking for right we see all these great demos and what is the potential behind the AI models but how much of this has really trickled down in kind of like the daily life of people both in the business

world and in the consumer world not much right it is really similar to what maybe internet maybe 30 years ago right where you have all those great ideas but it didn't really play a role in people's everyday life and I think if you figure out something where AI can help you or where actually AI gives your product a better proposition then obviously run with it and I'm pretty sure you will find again in more less every product and industry something where AI enables you to do something that has not been possible a few years ago and I think especially in the creative industries right where people need to think about also from a musician's perspective or from any other kind of creator where people also need to rethink their business models right for a musician it's not only about giving the song to Spotify and then that's kind of like the only channel of revenue it's

like multi-modal uses basically of creativity and content that have not been possible a few years before yeah we'll start with Thierry and then we'll do savvy afterwards yeah I mean we haven't seen so much project or products using AI the month that you know we use over time but that's why maybe it's a good idea to invest now because obviously it's just before I mean going back to the internet I mean when we see the internet brands that are still there that the one we had just a bit before you know when at this time we thought they were crazy so I think it's there and second to say what Florian said I think on the creative industries it's very important I think to have more AI because obviously AI is really about creating KPIs creating data which is really what is missing in the creative industries I mean if you look at I mean especially audiovisual or video game or music we don't have so much data

A bit more in music I would say compared to the other ones and that obviously is a big problem as well for investors to look at that, to look at this project because there's not enough data and it's too much on the type of content or what you want to achieve etc. You never know if it's working. So of course AI is basically about understanding the past, it's really about looking at what happened through database, understanding what was there and from there to build something which is I think what is interesting. To know the past in creative industries is interesting, you know what was available, what was released, what sort of music, what sort of film etc. What you want to know is what's going to be the future, what's going to happen based on what happened in the past and I think this is very exciting because until now nobody has been really doing that. It was more people, you know, artists obviously that were very, you know, leader and it's good but I think the AI can help

These people to be even, you know, in the front and really create something even more interesting, not if it's better or more beautiful but more interesting in any case. But I think the need of data is really what AI can bring to this sector. Amazing. It's difficult to add something after that but I mean as an investor I don't want to hear a founder saying to me I'm an AI company, I prefer to hear I'm a company with a product using AI to be a better product and to have a better solution for the market and we, I don't want to invest in AI but I want to invest in a solution using AI to be better for the label, for the creator, for the founders. It's about using AI and not being an AI company. That's, yeah, I'm a guy who likes practical stuff and I'm going to simplify the answers as much as I can

And you can say yes or no. So generally speaking, having AI as a music company is probably more positive than it is negative right now. Yeah. Okay, that's good. Yeah, that was very simple, that was for my sake. Okay, we go over to some audience discussions but before we do that I'm just going to plug the Sound Connections podcast I'm hosting that we're talking about this all the time, innovation, entrepreneurship in the music tech industry. We're soon launching the investment series which is talking with a lot of investors about this space so check it out, Sound Connections podcast. But I will open up for people here in the audience and short questions. I'm going to repeat them in my interpretation of the microphone for the recording's sake, I hope that's fine. But is there anyone here then stand up and say out loud so everyone can hear it, can you, yeah, it's easier to hear them. So the question was

Platform for super fans, is that a real thing or is it hype? That was my interpretation. Who wants to go with that? Yeah, well I can put my SoundCloud hat on for this one, you know, at SoundCloud which is my day job we often talk about, you know, if the last 10 years have been about streaming, the 10 years before that were about physical media, we believe as a company that the next 10 years are going to be about the connection between the artist and fan. I think that's where the potential to grow this industry is, that's where the potential to increase our sort of total addressable market from 20 billion a year to maybe 40 is in that space. And I always use the example of like I'm a music super fan, like I travelled 300 miles on Saturday to see a show of a band I haven't seen for 10 years because they're playing live again and I bought a CD and I bought a t-shirt and I wrote a review for a magazine that I side hustle for, like I'll go all in right. And if they had some sort of like signed drum skin I probably would have given them 100 bucks for it. So I feel like

We need to create more opportunities in that space for the people who want to invest, to want to put their money into artists. I see, I'd say maybe five of the 20 decks that I get a week are in that artist fan space. Hey, we've got an artist fan company so I say yes every time, I want to see the deck. I'm yet to see any real sort of breakthrough. I think nobody to me has quite figured out exactly what that's going to look like but I do believe as does SoundCloud that this is one of the next big things. Amazing. We have eight minutes left so I'm going to have Thierry have a short answer to that and then we'll move on to the next question. No, just saying that working a lot on video games, I mean I think these platforms are really interesting but I think it's moving from super fans to communities which is what we have in the video games and it's really going beyond just being a fan but it's communities with interaction etc and video games could be also a good platform for music etc but I think it has to move from fan to real interactive communities

Amazing. Is there anyone else in the audience that would like to ask a question? Yep. So I'm just going to repeat the question, how much do the investors use AI to research companies, use it in order in the decision making that you use around startups? Yep. Yeah, I use it quite a lot to be honest, I use different chat GPT or different types of AI to really look at markets and understanding a bit more so I'm reading more and more AI. Yeah, it's as we see, we use a lot of AI too like Thierry just to receive the more data than we can, than we can receive and to have a better understanding of the market, have a better understanding

Of the flow and so AI yes is a good, is a good tool to do this. Is there some like validation when you're doing due diligence where you use AI technology? Or I think funnily enough, I obviously it's part of my day job, it's what I do at SoundCloud, you know, we build AI tools, it's what my startup did. I use chat GPT all the time, I use, I'm loving all the voice to text technologies out there, I've like automated a lot of my own processes but in terms of when I make a decision on an investment as an angel I'm still using what I consider maybe to be my advantage which is that I know a little bit more than a lot of other people about AI and I will ask my co-founder to validate somebody else's proprietary model for me but I think we're probably not that far away from using the technologies to actually analyze investing opportunities but I'm not doing it right now. Interesting answer. Yes, so the question

Was whether or not you see companies doing like tipping to fans, like only fans for artists. Yeah, so I used to work in Singapore for BandLab and when I worked at BandLab we launched the tip jar facility where you can like, you know, it's really popular in Chinese culture to have this sort of tipping of coins and I think the challenge, I have also seen some businesses doing it as a standalone, I think the challenge then for that company would be if they say came to someone like us at SoundCloud and said can we integrate your technology, someone all the other DSPs would go we'll just build it ourselves and so I feel like it's a really tough space to be in and I feel like maybe probably Patreon does it best in terms of like go to that platform, dedicated platform, build your own service and it sort of is tipping but really it's a subscription so we're kind of figuring all that out. Interesting. I'll have one last question so if anyone wants to fight you can do it. Is there

Anyone else? No. Yep. I don't know how to rephrase that question, can you ask again so I can understand it? So what do you guys do to control so that there's competition, so that it's fair and you don't have Warner and Universal and Sony just completely marketing governing the entire market? So what does the investors think about controlling the companies they're invested in? I think it's interesting to hear that this part of the music industry is kind of like still stuck in old time thinking right because I can tell from a lot of other industries, I mean just representing here Telco for example right, it's totally clear that we would never take a controlling stake in a company that we've invested in for our own good right

Basically our like position is if we can make it work with this startup perfect for us, if on the next day they go to Vodafone and make it work with them it's good for the startup and then it's also good for us right. I think this learning has happened in a lot of industries and with a lot of CVCs, maybe not in all of the industries but I'm sure it will go there. Can you imagine investing in a company that you want to be really successful and being like and you cannot have these two customers, if they offer you a lot of money you must not work with them? No, it's crazy right. Amazing. Savvy, do you want to have a last comment? No. Oh yes, a small one. So as a VC we never take the control of a company and if at the time of an investment or whatever the timing of the company one investor take the control of the company instead of the founders we leave the company, that's really clear for our investment, we only invest on a company where the founders have the control

Of the company. Amazing. Well thank you so much guys for doing this. I think there is a lot of value. One of the conclusions or takeaways I have is investors are different, investors have different opinions and that's important for you guys to remember. Do your research, don't reach out to the wrong people, don't waste their time, don't waste your time. Getting investment is a long journey but you need to know who you are talking to. So thank you for giving the time, sparing your wisdom. They're going to be here for some hours, go overrun them, ask them questions. I'm sorry but it's so good to have this panel. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Applause