The 5-Year Exit Nightmare: Surviving My Acquirer's Collapse

Jakob Wredstrøm

And it a video at the same time, which means I get full quality at the end. But it be that it gets bit grainy or laggy at certain points. It doesn't affect the end product, so you don't need to worry about that. And also, if there's any audio in the background that's disturbing, we just use Adobe's AI software and it sort of removes everything. So that's no issue either. And how do you pronounce your name appropriately? Yan Bulam? Is that how you say it? Okay, cool.

Jan Willem

Okay.

Jan Willem

Yeah, that's pretty good.

Jakob Wredstrøm

We'll be covering everything from sort of your background, your journey, and we'll get into also the exit and you can use as many or as little metrics as you're comfortable with. Is there anything that's sort of off topic in that aspect?

Jan Willem

No, I mean, I mean, I still have the liberty to give the answers I want, so guess nothing is off topic. I cannot imagine you ask me a question that I feel uncomfortable answering. It just depends where you're going. I guess, I don't know.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Cool, great. Well, then I'll start in five seconds. Last thing. Do not disturb on your devices. It would be great. So computer, phone, so it doesn't ring or anything like that.

Jan Willem

Yeah, where's my phone? Where is it actually? Here. Yeah, it's off.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Cool, I will start in five seconds. Hey guys and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have Yan Willem in the studio. Welcome.

Jan Willem

Thanks, thanks for having me.

Jakob Wredstrøm

This is going be an exciting episode. You are a man that has had a very multifaceted career and many, many different roles that today is very significant in music tech, both as an ex-it founder, a current founder, investor, Amsterdam dance event, and that whole startup ecosystem. So yeah, before we go into all of that, for the people who don't know you, who are you and what do you do?

Jan Willem

Well, I started my professional life while I was still studying actually, I never finished that studies, this was a long time ago. And then we, a few guys, few guys that, you know, were... founders at some level, know, very young decided to build a FinTech product really and which later became Paylogic, which was the first company we founded and it kind of happened to us like some guys really planned their first startup and sometimes and I guess you're very lucky then it kind of happens because you think it's so much cooler than doing some other job and you're still doing your studying so it's very open and free and I guess I would recommend anyone who's studying to do that if you're into it because it gives a lot of freedom in the first phase of a company. So we started this business which became something completely else within half a year. And that's how we ended up, and I myself too, in the music or event tech. And this became a ticketing company. We just saw different opportunities. And that's how we got started. And from there, all the other things you just mentioned kind of happened.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Hmm. Okay, well, we'll dissect a lot of that, but maybe we'll sort of start with the end of PayLogic. You guys ended up being acquired, which also have sort of led you to certain other steps in your career, which we'll cover. But for the people who don't know PayLogic, I think it's sort of important to set the scene. Like you mentioned Fintech. What exactly did you do?

Jan Willem

Well... I guess the same thing later or maybe even at the same time happened in different countries because the rise of e-commerce back in 2003, 2005 in the Netherlands for instance a very important move was that Ideal, Ideal was a payment system came on the market that meant not only people who are a little bit adventurous and had credit cards would do online payments but everybody started to do online payments. So the second wave of the internet was the e-commerce I would say and that was the moment a lot of businesses got revamped And also events. And this started not so much as a competitor of the companies as Ticketmaster, which was called Ticket Service in the Netherlands or Ticketbox. It was more like, hey, wait a minute, you can just sell tickets in general, e-tickets, as we call them. And that was the innovation. And from there, we saw that this market was actually a bit broken. Maybe still is, or will always be. I don't know. That's interesting discussion in itself. But basically, we saw these super high fees, weird business models, weird marketing models, weird data models. It all didn't make sense if you would rebuild it again. If an event company would build their own way of the customer journey of a client, ticketing payments, data collection, marketing. It would look very different than what Ticketmaster just as an example back then did. And so we started building Paylogic, which was a white label solution, meaning you sold tickets on your own website to your own audience. You were the only one in contact with your fans. And because most organizers, 80 % of their visitors were already in relationship with them. that made complete sense. were also cheaper and all the other advantages and that gave us a quick boost and growth and that was the beginning of a ticketing company that grew into I think a high-tech ticketing company and there were not many of those. I think many of the ticketing companies were a bit more marketing related and more like little ticket shops and we had such a good technology that for instance just an example very big peak events like Tomorrowland which had hundreds and thousands of people at the same time buying a ticket.

Jan Willem

We're not being able to be processed that well by other companies and we did very well because we had this fintech background and way of thinking and building.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Okay, so that's interesting. So again, you come from the FinTech angle. The first conversation we had, which I believe is more than a year ago, the takeaway I had from that conversation is that you're not necessarily like a music sort of encouraged founder. Of course, you happen to be music and you've done story in FinTech for a lot of time, but what is sort of your sentiment been towards the music industry or events industry? Like, is that just what happened to be what you guys entered into?

Jan Willem

Yeah, because when we for instance started with ticketing, also so first we started payments everything that we started, okay payments for events, which also meant sports and so many other things than music. And it just happened to be and this is really the only strong example that I can give that there was a very booming sort of event music, concerts, clubs, party, party nights kind of growing thing, which had a very different angle. was almost all of it was electronic music because it was just happening. I know if it was happening everywhere. I guess so, but very strongly in the Netherlands and especially Amsterdam where we started. So there were so many little parties who had no use at these bigger ticketing companies that were asking weird money for unlogical marketing. So that's why we started in the music industry. And of course, like most guys my age, we knew everyone around in Amsterdam. So we were a little bit into that, but myself, no, I never knew the name of the DJs. I always felt embarrassed when we talked to our clients. They were talking, telling me about the lineup and how great it was. I was like, I have no idea and then sometimes the guys working for me covered for me because they're like, oh, yeah, because he was playing there and there I'm like, yeah, I know I remember, you know, but no, I mean, I like music. Don't get me wrong. I really like it, but I do not have the same interest in it. For instance, I also build a company in the restaurant industry and I always remember knowing the chefs of those restaurants and the names of restaurants better than the DJs and the parties. But, you know, sometimes it's also good to be in this industry, which is so attractive to anyone. And to me, it was like, oh, I have to go to another festival. Don't tell me I've got to go there.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You

Jan Willem

Because every weekend you have to show up to some clients.

Jakob Wredstrøm

It makes sense. know, in all honesty, I sort of have the same relationship to music. I appreciate music and I'm quite knowledgeable about music because of, you know, I have seven years of university related to it and this podcast and stuff, but like it doesn't really, you know, I'm a consumer. I'm a usual consumer of music and I appreciate it. think as much as my neighbor, maybe probably less so than my neighbor, he's a big, huge music fan, but like, you know, it just happens to be the industry, but it's also...

Jan Willem

Yes.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Very interesting, like it's complicated, it's broken to many degrees. It's an interesting industry to tackle as an entrepreneur, I guess.

Jan Willem

Well, I mean, to be honest, by being in this industry so much, I might not know who's the newest DJ in town, but I do kind of know how the system works because the system has its specifics and I've been around so many different topics at Amsterdam Denz Evening, but also other conferences, talking to panels, special investor meetings, understanding really how the big players, you know, work in the market, how things are distributed, how rights, share rights work and all these things. So I've learned a lot about it. So guess I do know quite a few things and also to be assessed startups in this market you have to understand what business they're entering. So every conversation I learned a little bit more. So I do think I'm fairly educated but I'm not a music guy and it's funny to be in between the music guys all the time and not be it. But it doesn't really limit. I guess it doesn't really limit me at all.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Hmm.

Jakob Wredstrøm

No, You know, a straight question. You guys ended up selling. Was that something of a significant event for you? Like, was that a runner?

Jan Willem

Well, it was a crazy. I don't know how much I told you and I don't know how much time we have for this part. But let me summarize the effect because what happened in 2012, a company from the US came to us.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yeah, funny.

Jan Willem

Actually via one of our clients called ID &T, is one of the biggest music companies, electronic music companies in the world and still is part of this group, still is. And they were in further conversations with ID &T about acquiring them and acquiring a lot of other companies that were actually our clients. And they were referred to us by those clients saying, hey, listen, if you also want to build this big company, you've got to buy Paylogic 2. This company was SFX and it was owned by a guy owned, know, run by a guy called Bob Silliman. He's no longer among us, but he was a pretty crazy guy, to be honest. I mean, he had a magnificent career of bringing companies to the stock exchange, but he also a lot of noteworthy crazy things happening. I saw a lot of that happening within SFX too. anyway, so we so in the end we ended up selling to them because it kind of felt we would lose at least six of our top 10 clients, even though we had tracks because these guys from the US said, well, we're going to do it anyway. So, you know, kind of saying we see you in court if you if you are trying to keep this client under your wings. So that gave a lot of pressure on our company. And of course, we were we were growing really rapidly. I think we ended up fourth in the Lloyd fast growing 50 or something like that, growing 2600 percent. So we were doing so well, but we invested all the money back into the company because we believed we were just on the beginning of a great journey. And then, of course, we weren't profitable, that was by choice. So we also felt like that we can never have a good deal with these guys because you're gonna look at our numbers and then you know we're not a startup anymore so it has to be based on our growth and also on a part of profitability which we haven't proven in the basic sense. But they did see that we were a strong company, we're growing great, they did see that all the guys that they want to acquire really did not want to leave Paylogic, they kind of set it as one of the terms to be acquired. So they did make us a very good offer and two of our four founder said I think we should go we should take it I wasn't one of those two but

Jan Willem

You know, during the conversation, I did understand that it maybe was a good decision anyway. I was really worried that our clients would run away knowing that one of their competitors would own us. But that actually did not happen. And basically we got acquired by this company. this is maybe not even what I don't know if you know this, but this is five years before selling to Vivendi. you do? Yeah. Okay. So, so this was selling the company, but then a lot of things happened. you know, if founders are listening to this, they might have heard horror stories before. Well, this is one of them.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

Jan Willem

Because at the end of the day, Bob Silliman and the team did not just buy us, but they acquired probably 25, 35 companies, maybe even more. And they just didn't pay. They paid only for parts. And it was horrible. And so we were in this crazy situation that you know your company is no longer really yours. Legally, you've got everything perfect. So all the lawyers, the high, know, highly paid lawyers will tell you're on a good side. But then again, you have to litigate to get it. And in the meanwhile, this could take ages. Your company's not really run by you anymore, at least not autonomously. So basically, you're in a shit situation. And I guess these guys knew it. So I had to run the company and I had to protect us and had to make all these kind of arrangements to make sure that we would be in a good position. And Paylogic actually grew very nicely in those years. But was tough and three of the four founders only, I was left, the other three went doing new things. We made agreements with each other, of course, and I would run the company to a hopefully good position, which we did. And then only after SFX got a sort of bankrupt or chapter 11, is, yeah, in the Dutch we call it Sir Schans van Botanik. I the phase before bankruptcy, which is a bit more flexible in the US than in the Netherlands, I would say. Then other... sort of debt investors came in and they took over. Bob Silliman went out and these new guys understood the situation very well. Wasn't their first rodeo. And they said, okay, Jan-Willem, you have to stay on. But if you stay on, you'll get everything that we owned you and you have to help us sell the company because we're not going for this bigger SFX view of buying all these different companies together. We're going to kind of sell parts of it, et cetera. And then two years later, the company got sold to a French company called Vivendi. So that took a long year. That took from 2013 to 2018. So that was some sort of crazy exit period, which was almost as long as the period before, which was like we started in 2005 or 2006. So basically it was a long aftermath. And then I could finally start doing other things in life.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Thanks. Wow.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So did that sort of set you up for life as an founder or like what's the reality of that deal?

Jan Willem

Well, it was a good deal. mean, we did a very good multiple. The company became very profitable in those SFX years, actually because I tried to let them interfere as least as possible. And then, and basically then, every other four founders got what they deserved from the first deal. But I also made like a bonus on the second deal because of course those new guys want to incentivize me. So that was good. And then I've moved to Spain there and then to Ibiza, you know, to live there with the young kids, which was really nice doing still a lot of things, but traveling a lot. But my base is sort of a very calm, you know, green spot in nature. I'm actually just moved back so that's already another phase of life. I've been there eight years. And yeah, that gave me lot of breathing space because you feel like you want to make the finish of this marathon. And it's not just about financials, it's also about responsibility to everyone around. And then when you are done, you really feel accomplished, but also a bit tired, of course. And I think it took me a half a year, a year. I did some fun things then, like funny projects. But after a year, I felt like, okay, I'm not going to be like this guy on the beach all the time, which you have, and Ibiza, the guys that just go to the beach until they're old. And we started doing new things under which the nice idea to start a startup. ecosystem within Amsterdam Dance Event.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Okay, well interesting. So you started investing in this space then after you sort of found some success. Why? Is it because you felt like you knew this space well or?

Jan Willem

Yeah.

Jan Willem

Yeah, basically that's true. okay, so I already started something during Paylogic, which was called Founders Dinner. I did this together with two other founders. We kind of felt like talking to other founders that are in the same phase. It's just so super nice. It's just weird that even though other people say I get it, I understand it. When you talk to somebody who's really going through the same thing and it doesn't, it's not about the magnitude of the numbers, but it's the same dynamics. Investors, employees that are not loyal or whatever, even though you do you make your best grade. create a great culture. All the things you have to arrange for those employees like systems that they get options or whatever. So you're in the same kind of like do we do this? Don't we do this? And it's really nice to talk not to the advisors who can technically help you but to the guys and women in the same position. So that's about how we created Founders Dinner and then this dinner grew from like 10 guys and actually no women to 80 people with a lot of women too because there was a lot of women founders which was amazing. And then COVID happened and it kind of died there like many things did. But I did that too and in those, and this is how my angel investing started. I was talking to guys who were a little bit earlier in their phase and I thought this is an amazing idea. And the first time I was completely wrong. That's also with anything like starting a company, investing in a company. You can be off by getting too excited about the guys or the idea or whatever. But during those dinners and years, I started to understand better. what companies were the ones that I really believed in and I've been successful with that. I've invested in this space but also in other spaces to be honest. But I did invest in at least four or five event related companies. I have to say only one music company. there again I'm actually more a live music guy or a live entertainment guy than a music person. But I think those markets are connected a lot. But also restaurant industry like I just said and also some other things. Yeah, one of them exited as well. So that's also nice.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So what is your opinion about, and this podcast is very specific to music tech, also for purpose that it is a... I wouldn't call it unattractive. Like it has its issues and bumps in the roads and missing infrastructure, especially for innovation and founders. So that's why I ask questions very related to this, even though your experience is somewhat peripheral, even though directly connected. But what is your thoughts about music tech or the related technologies to it? Again, through Amsterdam Dance Event, you've taken initiative for the startup event. So there must be some sort of opinion on this.

Jan Willem

Well, maybe this goes for more industries, but I see some direct similarities between the live entertainment market and the music market, meaning that... There's a few companies that are super strong and they've been building a very smart solutions that will keep them in place. These incumbents know what they're doing. you know, funny enough, most of the incumbents have startup programs and have all these processes in which if you are a growing company doing very well, that before you are powerful enough to really compete with them, you probably need something from those other bigger players or the rules that they created in the game, in the market. And that makes it a bit difficult. For instance, if you look at the broader fintech industry, I guess there's also very big players, but somehow they're not able to close off the market the same way as live companies do and music companies do. But I do think I see here and there some things changing. And that also has to do with that building technology became easier and cheaper, with AI even more easy. And I think that because you needed some sort of like growth to be able to really build something strong. It was difficult to get there with just VC money, unless you had the biggest California tickets, then theoretically, yes. But otherwise, it was very difficult to get there. I think things are changing a bit right now. And I do see a lot of initiatives that are growing, that are becoming stronger. And I like those examples. If you look at, for instance, the industry I know very well, the ticketing business, There was this one company Eventbrite, which you probably know, that was like the only one that really got like this 20 million invested in the same year. Paylogic got one million and I think we're doing the same just for reference. But then, of course, a lot of happened with their IPO, so I don't think they went as well. But now you've got companies like Fever and Vivenu that are doing serious growth in ticketing. And I think it has to do with things that are changing in the market. And the same goes for the music industry. I feel that It's opening up and that's interesting.

Jakob Wredstrøm

That makes sense. So in reality, if I just want to sort of consolidate what you said is. It's hard to navigate music tech, but more so now it's maybe easier than before and therefore the opportunities for these untackled problems are fairly high.

Jan Willem

Right. I do think that there's a lot of music creation around AI in all sorts of forms that, of course, creates total new solutions on a tech level. But it also opens up ways to not needing to work with the big labels or not needing to work with the big event owners or the live music owners. And I think that is super interesting. And I think 10 years ago, to take a big jump, it was almost impossible to grow to that level. mean, there were companies who did it. I Spotify is, of course, an amazing example, but there's not so many companies that were able to do that. And most of the things came out of already the existing companies that were running the market or from a total different tech angle, but already being a giant to start with. So I think I think that's changing. Also, I do think that and I think that's maybe just as important or maybe it has an effect on each other that VC and private equity and other investors are taking the music industry a lot more serious since the last decade. And I think, and then I go back to live entertainment, I think we used to look at festivals as crazy business, like, you know, the weather can be bad and it's not working and how can you do it? And the guys running festivals were, you know, old DJs or whatever, I'm exaggerating, but, you know, party guys who were just trying to build something nice. And now you see that the whole market, I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but gets consolidated by private kind of companies. So we've been following a lot of that and it has to do with people doing the math that there's actually a lot of money to be made in these industries and I think that's changing now. And I think for instance the tech companies like ticketing but there's many more that are serving live entertainment are also able to grow with them.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Okay, that makes sense. You said you only invested in one music tech company but then in peripheral industries. Can you maybe dissect those investments for us and try to explain what your reasoning is behind them?

Jan Willem

Well, I think the last company I invested in, I call this Event Tech, was a sports company that is doing sports travel and it's actually kind of competing with the Viagogo's of this world and the other companies that are selling tickets for sports events. And we see a lot of rule changes, a lot of legality changes and a lot of... different sort of consumers that are buying these tickets now being much more international. Used to be Scandinavian people going to England a lot. You know, basically it would be the people going from, would mostly be football matches and it would be people going from competitions with less good players like the Netherlands and Scandinavia going to competitions like England or Spain or Italy. But now people coming from Asia, from America to see this match. It's a bigger thing. So we saw those changes, had a marketing play for it and that's why we in it but this is not music of course. think the festival travel is one of the companies I invested in and it's again connected to the music industry and events. Another company that I invested in is much more according to the restaurant business, but it has to do a lot with the ticketing business. called, it was called Formetable and it's been acquired by a company called, well actually it's yeah, by ZenChef. Although it wasn't, ZenChef wasn't acquired by PSG yet. You know, PSG, right? The investor. So they were talking to ZenChef and they were talking to the company Formetable. and they were doing a roll-up and then they put those companies together. But because ZENSHEF was kind of further in the conversation and already a bit bigger and from France, they decided to call the whole company ZENSHEF now. So Formetable was the one company that I exited again from as an investor, let's put it that way. And for me, what I can say about these different investments is that I really, think if I invest as an angel investor, I really hope to be able to add some

Jan Willem

to the company. don't, I don't, I think you've got people that are, maybe that's the real official angel investor who just gives little tickets and then just says, hey, how are you doing every three months? Maybe because being a founder and being connected, I would love to really be on board and really be connected to the founders and really talk to them and try to add something to it. So I've done this for instance with a music tech company called Epic. And then my construction was actually a bit weird. So these guys decided that they wanted to grow internationally. They found it a bit difficult because there were a marketplace for events. I really saw lot of opportunity there and I said, well, let's do it together. Let me help you. So I stayed as a consultant in the company for a year. I also invested some money in it as a combination. I also got a pay which wasn't so high, which was totally fine to me, but at least some sort of like, you know, equity principle that I need to get paid for the hours I made. But if we would make this investment, this would a higher fee and me ending up with a higher share and not so much a cost to the company which was a perfect deal. So we did very well and the company is now really growing in Germany and in Belgium. So that was a construction that really fits me because I'm sort of a free agent although I just started a new company but we touch upon that later. But before that I was doing all these different things and I love to be on board, I love to play chess on different boards and so I was doing these different things next to each other and I think if I see a big opportunity for a company not just one in 10 years because I always find it very difficult but I see one in the next two years and these founders are open but also a little bit confused how to make the next step that's where I as maybe you don't call that an angel investor but as an investor say I'll jump on board for a while and let's do this together. And some founders really do not like it, but many of them actually do. And that's because I'm not a consultant when I join. I'm really a founder who's, you know, helping out.

Jakob Wredstrøm

That makes sense. So we first met in a connection with Sdm.s events. I still haven't been there. I needed to prioritize my traveling schedule. You initiated this startup event. Why was that a thing for you? Why do you want to focus in this area?

Jan Willem

Well, like with founders dinner, I just love the energy of founders. And I think. You know, as a founder, I don't really see it that way. But connecting, if you compare it to all the other people, they're a bit crazy because they're going like to this jungle and like, you know what? I'm going to go this way, even though there's a path over there because the path looks boring. And, know, I want to get my own path in, which is, I mean, a comparison with jungle, maybe a bit exaggerated. You know what I mean? Like you're going somewhere where most people say, are you sure? Are you sure you'll be doing this? This could be a lot of work and you have to end up walk back to the begin and take the path like the others. But that creativity, that little leadership, mean, of course, there's also a lot of founders who are not amazing, but many of them are. They're like super... powerful characters, have their own opinions and hopefully they can also learn and grow these opinions. And if you're with those people around who all take the same risks, I always get very happy. So every time we do Amsterdam Dance event, I do these workshops, round tables, and in the end, everybody is so excited. And I sometimes I think, why actually? But it's just talking about these topics with people who have interesting opinions and really go for it and all take the same risk and just give something. So I think that is in the end, like motivation to keep on doing it. But how it got started was very different. Basically, to market Paylogic, I was still working on it, Paylogic then, we wanted to get all the international big players in electronic music from Asia to South America. And we actually had a of clients in these countries, but we wanted to grow bigger. And we knew that most of the electronic events would all come to ADE. So we thought ADE is in our backyard. We know these guys. Let's try to become their

Jan Willem

tech partner and even though there were already tech panels back in let's say 2000 I know 15 16 there wasn't really a tech stream so you had ADE green and ADE so you know it had all these streams with their own panels their own crowd so we suggested to Amsterdam Dance Event to build for them a custom ticketing engine that would fit travel and all these different things they wanted to add and we would be their tech partner and we would run the whole stream. So we would get the panelists, get the panels, get the plans. So this happened. We did this for three years. It was really cool. And in those years, Paylogic got sold the second time and I kind of left it there. The only thing I did, by the way, in those two years that I was still on board, I ran the startup competition because I liked it. So I found like 10 startups around the world and it was a lot of fun. Actually, Swedish company Wondr... first year but now I don't know the name that's horrible and there was a lot of fun and then covid happened then I guy then the guy stopped with the tech stream Paylogic stopped with that partnership and the guys from Amsterdam Dance Event called me when I was on Ibiza and they said you know Willem you know there's no more place in ADE for a separate tech stream because everything is technology now just doesn't make sense but we really love what happened with the startups when you guys were doing this how can we reconnect with these startups like you did Do you have an idea for that? Do you want to help us out? And I said, well, this is a lot of work, very little pain, although that's the most important thing. So I said in the first step, I don't know, I don't think so. But then when I thought about it again, I was like, yeah, maybe I do like it because I really want to do things that give me a good energy and not so much based on some sort of end result. So I thought, let's try it. And it was a lot of work. I kind of hated it sometimes, but we did make a plan to really engage the startup community, not just by making a competition, because that was what it was beginning.

Jan Willem

and to be honest, is repetitive work and every conference does a little bit the same. We wanted to create a community and that was, I think we're still creating it. I think we're still not there, but what we are there is that everybody likes the concept. There's no competition really going on or at least not in that sense, but there's super much interaction and connection going on and everybody likes to be part of the chorus. At least that's the feedback that we get. So we're building something that, you know, if I really gonna zoom in, it's gonna take a while, but a place where Startups feel that they feel at home at this big, big ADE scattered out of the entire city and that they have connection with all sorts of relevant people from big companies, but also investors, talk to other startups, have interesting sessions. And they kind of got like a stage to show their product at the right moment to the right people because we get a lot of space from Amsterdam Dance Event. to kind of navigate through everything that's there and all the people that are there. So yeah, that's what we've been doing. And it kind of happened that every year we get a bit smarter. And since two years I've been it together with Gareth Deakin. You know him, actually he's running more of it and I'm doing the workshops. But I'm staying connected and I like that a lot. And it's a lot of fun. And I really would say, Jacob, you have to be there next year because I cannot imagine you haven't been there.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yeah, bro.

Jakob Wredstrøm

It's always been colliding gathers. You know, through, different obligations, I need to go to different conferences. And as you know, the music industry tend to have a lot of conferences.

Jan Willem

Well, I do think so, but I do think and I know I'm advocating here, but I do not own ADE and I do not get any bonus if more people come. So this is not the point. But I would say if you are a music tech founder. You should come to ADE and be at those things because you're going to talk to so many people. going to, you know, you may be, maybe, maybe a bit overwhelmed during the days itself, but if you play your cards right, you have like a whole agenda of next interesting follow ups, both with partners, potential clients, investors, everything. So that's, that's interesting.

Jakob Wredstrøm

And now you're sort of pursuing a new startup. Tell us a bit about that.

Jan Willem

Yeah, I did it again. It was so, you know, when we start, I told you the beginning of this thing is when we started Paylogic, we weren't so aware of the momentum we actually had. We kind of realized it after because we were so young, but we were totally on the wave of e-commerce and e-commerce internet. know, internet was already around there for let's say at least 10 or 12 years, but it became so much more a business thing instead of just a communication thing. And that changed every business and also the event business. But since then, a lot of different technologies had you know, came around and said that they would, you know, change the market, but they never really did. Even not blockchain, even not NFTs, other things. didn't, you know, there were like little sparks of some company raising some money based on a new sort of events or ticketing, but basically the customer journey still looked a lot the same. And if I'm going to be very negative, it didn't even get better. It got worse sometimes. Of course, technology progressed in general, but the big, big ticketing companies who are not evil but have a sort of own consumer data play. We're actually again in between the event organizer and the fan and that just doesn't make sense and we still think that those companies should exist but event organizers should have their complete journey owned and making sure that they can, you know, like if your event has a certain brand, has a certain experience and the whole thing online and before the event should have the same experience, it should be as much as possible in control of that. But event organizers are having a difficult time right now. I think across Europe, tickets are not selling out as much as they did. Things are getting more expensive. So basically they're not investing more. They can't. And maybe even

Jan Willem

smaller teams, smaller marketing budgets or I don't know, they go for it and they go all out but super much risk. But with AI there are new solutions. So when AI started I was like, you know, maybe I'm too old for this. I'm not going to jump on this train. I'm going to just be a consumer here. But then I got so excited because I realized honestly this is going to change everything in the event business. This is going to maybe even change events a lot, you like it or not. don't even find, I mean, an interesting discussion but to me that is not so relevant. It is going to change it. But definitely the journey towards that is going to be completely different. then we were talking about it with different founders and a few guys that reached out to me with a plan for that. And I realized you know the existing companies are not going to do it. They are so much busy with their own roadmap and their integrations and their marketplaces. They're not really going to build the AI supported consumer journey for events. And therefore I saw like, hey, this is so cool. I realized this is gonna change the industry. I saw a bunch of guys building a very good, let's it was already a working product on agentic technology for events, but also tourism and other things. And then we started playing around with that a little bit. And I thought this already right now is so much value to an event organizer. And this is just the beginning. And then I said, okay, what do you guys want to do? What do you to work together with the company Epic? Like I told you, I was helping out in that phase and I was like, we can definitely do it, but is this, is this the best way to work together? So we talked more and they said, don't you want to join our team? And I said, okay, I'll join you. So they were, I think still trying to find out who they are. They weren't called moments at the moment. And then I joined and we started moments and we started focusing on the event industry. And this is a little over a year ago. We raised some capital in which I also invested a bit. This is again the same sort of combination, but now like a higher founder level and a lower investor level, you know. And we've been doing very well since. Yeah, we've got a lot of clients in the Netherlands, also some abroad. And yeah, I hope that we have around 50 clients by this summer. But we actually stopped signing, or not really stopped, but we kind of did not push for more founders between, let's say,

Jan Willem

December, ADE, around October until Christmas to re- We have learned so much in the first summer of how event organizers were actually using us, how fans were using it, and how you can really make the biggest difference that we had to... We didn't change the product so much, but we were focusing on other things. And now I think we have a technology that event organizers really understand very well, and that really directly makes a change. And we have a few other things that we believe are going to make even a bigger difference, but we're going to bring it out step by step.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Interesting. the energy you have as a founder, again, speaking to you both last time and now, you seem very passionate. Does that have limits? Like, do you get tired as well? Like, what's sort of your energy level here?

Jan Willem

Yeah, I mean, of course I do get tired, but I never really get tired of building businesses. Unless I do not believe we're really onto something. I mean, I've been helping out guys that I talked with for a week and I said, okay, we come to Ibiza, let's talk about it. And I thought it was super amazing, but I didn't do enough research. And after the first day I realized, I really do not agree with your vision. I don't like the approach. And then I can be like almost like a difficult school kid. know, can, of course I'll still be nice and decent, but I feel like, better we have to end it. But whenever the founders are roughly on the same level and have a vision and really see an opportunity, and it might even be wrong after all, you never know. But probably, yeah, at least onto something because I normally work with smart guys who've also done stuff before. Then it really feels like you're on such a cool journey that I never get really tired of that. I cannot say never is never, but of course for 10 years or now eight years, I did not really, wasn't really a founder. And maybe the first three years after ending Paylogic, I did not have the same capacity of energy, but I think that was not because I was not liking it, but because the whole end ride of Paylogic was tough and it takes a toll on a person if you're being in such difficult situations with owners and investors. So I think that can really be one of the biggest burdens of being a founder is the last phase around the exit and even after the exit depending on what kind of exit or arrangement you've made but in the beginning phase of companies

Jakob Wredstrøm

Hmm.

Jan Willem

until when growth is really steep and ideas are everywhere and you can still change if you have a good idea because also in Paylogy the last few years you couldn't really change anymore. It was like changing a very big boat. I'm still excited to grow it but I like it more if you can still have ideas and change and develop and add things and I guess if you have the perfect company and especially with AI You can do this for a very long time. can still revamp the company even after, you know, seven or eight years and take a total different course. So yeah, I still have this energy and I hope to keep it forever. And I also, by the way, I don't know about you, see a lot of founders who've been founding companies before, even older than me, that are still super excited about doing that.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Hmm. Yeah, I think, you know, to some degree it's identity. Even though I run a venture studio, I'm very much a founder, helping other founders. And, know, I've myself like thought, oh, it would be so much fucking easier if I just took a job somewhere. But like at the end of the day, like I would just realize, no, it would never go. Like, you know, I'll try to stop.

Jan Willem

Yeah.

Jan Willem

No, I guess if you have done this for a while and with some level of success, then it's really difficult. to go back and just accept a lot of nonsense basically. And maybe that's not even nonsense because a company needs a structure and layers and levels and not everybody can be behind the wheel. So if you're just in the back of the car pushing the car or something like that, of course you can't take different ideas about the road. But if you have always been in that cockpit or whatever you want to call it, it's difficult to go on the backside of the car and shut up and work. I don't think I can do it. And I don't think... No, I couldn't do it. for me, maybe it's not just the... It's the only way really.

Jakob Wredstrøm

If you were sort of every as we sort of closing in on the end of the episode if you were to predict where you believe there's potential as an investor or founder in music deck in particular, where would that be? What was the best gap to pursue right now?

Jan Willem

Well, I maybe I'm a little bit focused on my own AI journey right now. But I mean, of course, and it's like such an open door to kick in, but there's a lot happening there. And I think. There are so many different ways to look at it. So we are creating a journey that an event organizer can have like the broadest experience with the fan and can have. It is as if you're as an event organizer, you basically start this company because you are, because you love this event that you're making. It's like you would love to invite everybody personally to your event and show them around and tell them what's there to do. That's what you would really like to do. That's why you start a restaurant or an event. It's not because you think you got to make money, then you'd rather do something else. I mean, you can make money, but you get my point. There's at least a lot of risk and work towards it. And now with what we're building, you can talk to your fans 24-7 in your own voice and you can really create experiences before and after that fit, that have the same brand value. I think if you are... If you see the scalability and the flexibility around AI, and if you see how many things you're still doing with music or with events that actually don't make sense, that are awful. I mean, the basic layer we're doing with moments now, and this is just such an open door, every founder will understand it, is just also support questions. But basically, if you have a question to an event organizer, You wouldn't ask it because you know you're not gonna get an answer. Not soon at least. You're not gonna get a real good answer. You're not even trying it. This is just a basic layer. The layers on top of it is how can I get... If I go to ADE, which is actually a client of Moments. If I go to ADE, you know ADE knows a lot about me. They know what panels I've been to. They know where I have to stay because I lived in Ibiza in a hotel. All these things are collected and you can offer them. And by the way, every year I'm trying to find out again how I have to arrange everything. For me it's easy. I come from Amsterdam. But for lot of other people

Jan Willem

It's very difficult and all these things are so easily to be managed by AI right now And we're just on the beginning of it So if you know a little bit about AI and you know Where things are going on that level and you see all the things that are broken or at least not nice Within all the different journeys have to could also be within companies then I would definitely try and invent that I also think you have to understand you don't even have to have the end solution in mind already before because you're gonna just get there if you know what's wrong. You don't even have to have the solution. You have to know that there will be a better solution if you're going to invest in it. And I think probably there's a lot of things happening outside of AI right now that are also very interesting and it doesn't mean your whole solution should be an AI business, whatever that really means, because you don't have internet businesses anymore either. But I do think there are the big wins to be made and I do think even though a lot of big companies are on it, You could start with a very small process and start improving that, start a little small problem within somewhere within the businesses in music or life. And then from there build a company. And I wouldn't start with too many people. I wouldn't start with trying to solve a too big thing, but step by step build around it. That's what I would do in AI right now. And also keeping very much track on everything that's happening. And I think, I think there will be loads of different businesses doing very different things that we're doing right now in two or three years from now and that is super exciting. It's the same when the internet started and I don't know how old you have to be to understand it but a lot of things that no one was even looking for a solution because you just didn't think it was possible are possible again and I think you're lucky if you're in like the age of understanding AI like as a kid, because I feel like I'm an old guy trying to understand AI, but I did understand internet as a kid. And I think if you are understanding AI as a kid, like the boy, the young guys that are now working for moments and saying, I'm going to start my own business in three years. I'm like, that's right. And it's going to be amazing. And I think you should be busy with this right now. And I think music, there's so many people that wanted to work in music, especially in a startup sort of ecosystem. And it was very difficult.

Jan Willem

You got like a boring role or are you gonna change right now? That's so much different. So yeah, best opportunities are there right now. Really think so.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Amazing, man. Well, it's been so good to learn from you today about your journey and sort of what you're doing now and your philosophy around this. what I really love about this is oftentimes when I talk about music tech, think it oftentimes has a very like singular meaning to people what that means. But there are so many sort of peripheral parallel industry pursuits and tech pursuits that, of course, is related to music, but might have. some more interesting angles than just the usual sort of B2C, a direct to artist, tech and angle, which I'm not saying is not interesting, but there's so many things to be discovered in the peripherals of music as well, which is sort of what you focused on. do you believe sort of maybe the last question, compared to how difficult it might've been to do this, everything from founding companies to, to the exit, do you believe that it is an industry you would have pursued if you could do it all over again?

Jan Willem

Right, I think so, yeah.

Jan Willem

Yeah, so again, I will say that it is live entertainment that I know most about 100%. I think. I would have not, I would have probably gone for a, you know, I don't try to take more risks than I need in life, but also in these businesses. And I might not have quickly jumped on something so popular as events because I thought, yeah, that's going to be busy with like, like a lot of girls want to work in fashion. I'm like, yeah, that's going to be tough. You know what I mean? Because everybody loves it. So there's the same thing with events, but I think the reason why it did work very well is because there was a lot of new things happening around me in the Netherlands, like new events. new businesses and I think if you if I look at if I look at that business from the beginning then I think it was a an unbelievable growing market in the Netherlands and we've been able to grow with that so if you are looking at the music industry go also to the places where new music starts where new artists get born and I think that was an opportunity for us and also a little bit of luck and I think the only way how you can get lucky is by trying stuff right so I think that's also the way.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking your time. It was great to have you on the podcast and I appreciate it so much,

Jan Willem

Thank you so much, was a lot of fun doing.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Amazing.