ESNS 2026: Innovative Ticketing Strategies

Sound Connections podcast. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Good to be here. Um, I'm, I'm Scandinavian and very informal, so I'll have you guys- That's all right. - introduce yourself and the company you work for, and, um, I'll sort of introduce the topic we're gonna cover today. So, Mike, who are you? Yes, I'm Mike. I'm the founder of, uh, Stager, and Stager is a, a tool that, uh, supports the f- whole workflow of event organizers from, uh, the start, the booking, until the after-sales email.

Mm. And Yannick, what about you? My name is Yannick. I, uh, work for CM.com. I've been in the ticketing event marketing business for, well, over 10 years. Um, and yeah, with CM.com, we're really trying to push the agenda of adopting a one platform for marketing, ticketing, basically anything digital and payments related to your event.

Yeah. So I think on the surface level, ticketing, um, the digital aspect of live music can seem a bit boring, but that's not really the truth. Uh, it's a pretty savvy red ocean industry, and there's a lot of challenges here, and there's a lot of competition. So what we're gonna cover today is sort of the reality of ticketing, the reality of live music promotion and digitalization, and what is actually happening beyond the glamorous stories of sold-out shows and everything. And, you know, anyone who's been in the live industry would know, uh, really fast that this is not a necessarily great place to be a founder or to run a company. It's very competitive. So, Yannick, just to start with you, uh, Stager has grown itself to be a really important player in the last 12 years.

Why did you go into starting a company in this space? Because I hated the ticketing companies, actually. Yeah? Yes. So, um, I was running a venue in, uh, Rotterdam called Warm, and, uh, we were in, all the time in big trouble with our workflows and operations, and bands booked at the same time as we rented out the space, and we were, in the meantime, paying a lot of money to ticketing providers that could only generate a barcode that we could scan.

Yeah. So I thought, "I'm going to build something myself that helps us as an organization to, uh, be more efficient in executing our events, and, uh, I will do that with, uh, the money that we don't pay to a ticketing provider." Makes sense. D- do you have the scale where you could justify that expenditure, or...?

Us? Yeah, yeah. Did you sell enough tickets where you thought you could sort of save money by building it yourself? Yeah. Well, um, uh, there's, uh, normally quite high margins on, uh, ticketing- Mm ... if you compare it to the transaction costs that are, uh, actually paid. Mm. So it's an easy calculation. Yeah. Interesting.

Especially back in the day. Yeah. Well, [chuckles] it's probably more competitive now than, than before, and there's- Right ... probably a race to the bottom kind of style going on now. Uh, well, we'll talk about that more later. Um, but was it as... I don't know if you s- think it's easy, but what is it- was it as simple as you imagined it? Um, no. Uh, as you, as you mentioned, it's a red ocean. I think that's, uh, because there's a lot of sharks in the sea.

Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, okay. Well, uh, if I had, had known, uh, the industry better before starting, I would have thought twice. Yeah. Yes. It's really competitive, and, um, yeah, uh, and it's a, it's a, a hard, uh, battle- Mm ... uh, against, uh, all the competitors and also the, um, international m- um, monopolies and- Yeah ... uh, big companies that rule the, the scene.

Without going too much into the macro environment of ticketing, uh, because that's not sort of, not the topic of today, but if you look through the numbers, you know, with this big, you know, Ticketmaster, Live Nation thing, and, and even though there's, there's a lot of merit to issues with that monopoly, especially in certain territories, but if you look at the, the ticketing numbers or, you know, Ticketmaster itself and its primary category of what it serves, which is digital tickets, you'd be surprised that it's still not that attractive in it- in its own, uh, you know, value. There's, there's a lot of add-ons. There's a lot of synergies that needs to, you know, happen in order for ticketing in itself to be, you know, great. Uh, w- we'll cover that in a moment, but you guys talk about easing the digital

adaptation? But, like, try to explain sort of what you guys are all about. I think, um, especially nowadays, the amount of tasks, to-dos, obstacles, things you need to figure out as a promoter, and usually small teams, uh, is, is quite overwhelming. Mm.

Um, booking artists, getting a [indistinct], um- Volunteers. Volunteers in. Yeah. Getting the permits sorted, uh, getting a good deal with your beer supplier, for example. All these things require a lot of attention, and, um, a lot of the clients we deal with are, are s- small to mid-size. Mm. Uh, so you've got a million things to do to run a single-day event.

Yeah. Um, so we think, you know, there's many, many tools now that you need to use- Mm ... that you need to utilize well, um, to efficiently organize an event- Yeah ... uh, be it a festival or a club night, whatever. Uh, and we believe that, okay, you've got all these tools that you need to use. Yeah. How can we maybe make that a bit easier for you? By giving you a variety of those tools with one login- Yeah ... instead of having all these different contracts, all these different communication partners. Um, and so yeah, we really try to bundle the most important ones, we think- Yeah ... ticketing, payments, marketing, uh, customer service, now AI, obviously.

Yeah. We try to bundle them in one platform, so you can call one person if something's not working, or if you need help figuring out how to get a triggered email campaign going. Um, and in that sense, I think we can kind of make their lives a bit easier. Mm. Because of the other side of ticketing is promoters, uh, which are sort of the primary, uh, users of the ticketing system to some degree. Um, and you can sort of say it's almost the same as ticketing, and it's very red ocean. It's very competitive, it's very small margins, there's a lot of risk, maybe more so in ticketing. It's, you know, you do- there's a lot of upfront capital.... and when you are in a small margin game, the capacity to innovate, the capacity to do a lot of things, and have a responsibility for a lot of things, um, it goes down. Um, so there, there's a big argument to the- making it easier for promoters to navigate the live part of what they do, and the digital part of what they do. How do you approach this? How do you approach making it easier for promoters?

Yeah. The platform that we've built is from the start, uh, um, trying to make the work of, uh, an event organizer more efficient. Uh, so all data needs to be filled in once. Uh, you can create events, set up the production, uh, make timetables, uh, schedule your crew, send out emails, uh, get your tickets online, let people- add people to the guest list, et cetera. So the whole basic idea of Stager is making the life of the event organizer easier.

Mm. But as a founder, you know, back to my premise of the promoters are also a difficult game, and oftentimes they really don't have much money- Mm ... because a lot of it goes into risk capital or slow margins, or they might have a few shows that goes bad, and therefore need to, you know, really dig into what they have. How do you build a model around a client that doesn't have much?

Yes. Um, you need to, uh, offer a good product that saves them time- Yeah ... because time is money. Yeah. And, uh, you have to have a really sharp pricing because money is money. Mm. It's, it's true, but, you know, one of the things I've always wondered about is why there's a lot of, um, competition in this space. Like, what is it really that is attractive? You can-- You, to some degree, said that you didn't really know what you were going into when you went into it, but what it is- was it- why is it attractive to build a ticketing company?

Um, yeah. Uh, you were, um, stating that the margins in ticketing are, are not high, um, but there's still, uh, there's still quite a lot of margin, and if you sign, uh, a contract, you can make quite a lot of money, especially if it's a three- or four- or five-year deal. Mm. Uh, most deals are now, in the last, uh, period of time, signed for a shorter period.

Mm. Um, so, um, yeah, if you sign a, a good deal, then you get, uh, security- Mm ... of quite a lot of re-, uh, revenue. Mm. So, um, in, in my opinion, there's, there's still enough, uh, margin to make it very attractive to start a ticketing company. Mm. It's, it's also, uh, new ticketing companies keep popping up- Yeah ... until they're bought.

And, you know, I think that might be true when you're able to do those contracts, when you're able to lock people in for, for whatever reason. But the barrier to entry within the market is, is quite high. Like, how do you, Jannick, experience it? Like, as, as a player that wants to have market position and market share, how do you basically take customers from others and get them to you? That must be difficult.

Yeah, it's extremely difficult, and as you know, with, with COVID happening and then all the downstream effects of COVID, and inflation, and prices going up for everything, for your fences, for your porta potties, for everything, it's, it's kind of hard to... Unless you're coming in really aggressively on the price- Mm ... it's quite hard to, to convince people to switch their ticketing. I'm talking about ticketing. Yeah.

It's not easy to convince them to switch- No ... unless there's a big financial incentive or there's a feature function that's so unique that'll save them so much time, or that'll sell so many extra tickets because you're now utilizing a social network where there's a lot of purchase intent. Mm. Um, so the way we go at it is, while ticketing is, you know, it's... We're basically your bank, so that's one of the most important things to do.

Mm. I mean, you gotta have that on lock. Um, but it's our, like, additional services or our complimentary services that we really leverage when we talk to prospects- Yeah ... uh, to get them... I, I've, I've been doing ticketing sales for about ten years? Yep. And for the first time, well, for the first time, I've been, been with CM for about five years now. Well, over, actually. It's not a ticketing conversation anymore. It's now a marketing strategy conversation, or it's a customer service conversation, and ticketing is part of that obviously. It's, it's the magic moment where people actually commit to coming to your festival.

Mm. Um, obviously, the commitment now is a bit less, with secondary being the way it is. But still, the magic moment is, is the ticketing. But everything around it, like, how do you get someone to buy that ticket? Mm. That's a whole marketing campaign. Let's talk about that, and how do you- what does your marketing campaign look like? If someone asks you a question through your email or your Instagram DMs, what are you doing with that question? Are you just answering it, or will I get a, "Oh, this is ticket number five thousand two hundred and thirty-three, uh, we'll get to you in forty-eight hours"?

Mm. I don't want that anymore. I want a direct response, preferably also with a solution, and then I wanna be able to have a chat with that person. Mm. "Hey, so by the way, did we solve your problem? Yeah, great. Okay. Um, hey, did you see, by the way, that we're also selling merchandise this year? We have a new artist," or whatever. "There's a new record out. Have you looked at that?" And then send them a link. So there's, there's... The ticketing is very important, but it's just one single piece of a broader marketing campaign, a broader activation campaign.

Mm. And then the, the question becomes: how do you keep that going all year round? If it's a festival, you know, that's- there's downtime, there's... But that downtime doesn't necessarily need to mean downtime for the attendee. Mm. They're still maybe willing to engage with your brand. Mm. If you have a strong brand, if it's a strong concept, then odds are, if your communication's on point, they'll, they'll engage with you.

Mm. And those moments of engagement are also potential ticket sale moments or, um, add-ons, like hoodies, caps, records, whatever. Yep. So yeah, we try to come at it from a, "This isn't a ticketing conversation; it's a marketing strategy conversation." Mm. And that also kind of leads to different stakeholders within the organization, right? You're not- no longer talking to only the marketing managers or the guys doing the ticketing. You're also talking to the founders- Mm ... and people that are concerned a bit more about, "Where am I gonna be in five years?"

Yep. Well, that changes the dynamic. So what do you basically, you know-... talking about is that ticketing in its traditional sense and brand really isn't just ticketing anymore. It's, it's everything around it, both to stay competitive, to sort of have customers, but also to basically increase ticketing. You know, you want to sell as many tickets as possible, so you need to provide the surrounding services. But the public perception about ticket companies in general is, you know, ticketing. And, you know, if we wanna tell a very simplified story of how people perceive ticket companies is, um, I go to buy a concert, and someone takes a lot of money for just processing the payment, and there's a very negative, um, sort of story thing about ticketing in general. How do you, with Stager, experience that? D- is that something you, you feel in your company?

Um, you mean the fact that, uh, the people experience ticketing companies as, uh- The users, the audience. Yeah, the audiences. Yeah, um, it happens, of course, uh, that, uh, the ticket- it, it's really easy to blame the ticketing provider. Mm. That's, uh, that's true. At the same time, uh, and I think that, uh, goes for cm.com as well, uh, we don't set the service costs. That's something that, uh, the organizer does or that the promoter does.

Mm. So maybe we charge them, uh, a few times, but then they put a few euros on top, and it's their money. Yeah. But it's really handy to blame the ticketing provider, then, of course, for grabbing all the money. Yeah, and, and- A scapegoat. And the public perception, like, even when you talk a- you talk with the music industry, people who are maybe not directly promoters or work directly with ticket companies, they still tend to blame the ticket companies. Like, it's, it's not, you know... When you buy a ticket, it doesn't say, "Promoted by this promoter," and, like- Yeah ... it, it's all fronted with your brand.

I think there's a distinction to be made here. There's, there's ticketing companies like Ticketmaster- Mm ... obviously, you know, all over the news right now, getting sued and, um, you know, rightfully so. Um, but then there's also companies like Stager, cm.com. We're way more of a white label approach. You know, you don't really see us, maybe a little tiny logo down in the bottom that says, "Powered by CM."

Mm. Um, and it's their data. Yeah. You know, we're not using that data, so it's not like we're cashing in on the database that festival brings along, or the venue, whatever. Mm. So I think there's, there's a distinction to be made there. Yep. Um, and yeah, I mean, you're gonna get flack, right? If there's, if there's a way for a promoter to, to pass on some income and call it service fees, that get added on top of the ticket price, and that way we can set a mental barrier for the ticket price.

Mm. It's not 50 euros, but it's 49.99, and then, you know, you get the s- the service fees on top. That's a ps- psychological thing, sure. But I feel like that's dying down. That, that was a, that was a thing, like, five or 10 years ago. I, I don't really get that anymore because most festivals, in my experience, have adopted the inclusive pricing, because obviously, the ACM, the, the regulatory board here in Holland, has kind of, you know, they've, they've given us some shit for the way we sell tickets.

Yeah. All the, the costs need to be shown upfront- Yep ... first step of the shop. So, you know, that, that whole... That's, it's 15 euros here, but then next step is another euro, and then when you pay, it's like, "Oh, well, depending on what you choose for payment- Mm ... we're gonna add another 5%." Mm. Uh, that's kind of been, been deleted out of the, out of the way we sell tickets. Mm. So I think nine out of 10 clients that we work with, or maybe eight out of 10, they'll have inclusive pricing. So there's, there's no longer that, "Oh, oh, see? These ticketing companies are adding on five euros for a ticket."

Yeah. Yeah, that has definitely changed, uh, a lot. Uh, but still, uh, like, big arena shows and, uh, Ziggo Dome shows, uh, the amount of money you pay on top of it, I still hear people complain about it. But, uh, yeah, we're- uh, that's not the shows that, uh, we sell, but that, uh, is more Ticketmaster or, or Eventim. And I think- I think it's also geography.

Mm. So it's still normal, I think, in the United States, to, to pay, like, 15, 20, 30, 50 dollars on a ticket, depending on what show it is. Yep. That's unheard of here. Like, you would have riots. You know, you'd have people with pitchforks at your doorstep- Yeah ... uh, 'cause it just doesn't fly. In Germany, uh, not so long ago, you could, uh... You had to pay 2 euro 50, uh, to print a ticket at home via Eventim.

Amazing. [chuckles] Yeah, and they were- A cash cow. Yeah, and, uh, I think they were sued or, uh, or there was a r- uh, a, a rebel, uh- Yeah. Rebellion, yeah ... rebellion against it, and they got rid of it. But it's super crazy to... I- it's your own printer, and it's your own ink, and then you have to pay money for that. Yeah. So but the, uh, ticketing providers, uh, is, are still, still sometimes, uh, a scapegoat. But yeah, I don't have any- I think it's dying down ... problem with it.

Okay. But it's dying. But, you know, Yannick, um, like, Mike, you mentioned that there's players, you know, new companies all the time that's coming up with, uh, startups that wants to do ticketing. Um, we also discussed before the podcast, you know, a lot of them die. What is the primary reason for these companies not succeeding? Well, they don't always die. They are- Not always, but- They are, they are- Fairly often ... actually, mostly they're acquired. Because this is what's happening in the market- Yep ... and what we've seen also in, uh, the last year, that was quite crazy, all the acquisitions that have taken place. Uh, Eventim buying See Tickets from, uh, Vivendi, and also Paylogic is included in that. Uh, Eventix, uh, it's now called WeeeTickets, was acquired by, uh, WesEvent. Uh, there was a lot of acquisitions, so it's, uh, it's, uh, maybe for some startups even, uh, there's an, a really good exit strategy. Try to grab a market share, and then, uh, work hard for a few years, and then have a quick exit.

Mm. I, I think for the, the ones that do maybe fade out a little bit or die out, um, I think a way of entering this market is, "Oh, well, you know, I know See Tickets, cm.com, Stager, they're all kind of missing this one feature that everyone's now looking for." Yeah. So you're basically building a feature- Yeah ... not a platform, not, not a full-on suite of solutions that they need to actually run a festival.

Mm. So they'll come in hot with this one thing, and that's their pitch, and then like, "Oh, my God, you guys don't have this? Oh, we're gonna go with them," because, one, they're offering a huge discount on the fee, plus they have this super innovative-... new feature that we all need, and then it turns out two years later, that feature is no longer relevant. Mm. The ticketing company kind of underestimates what it takes to run a ticketing company. Yeah. It's ba- I mean, I think one of the most well-read articles on IQ Mag is Ticketing: The Bad News Business.

Mm. Like, that's, that's- it's always in their top five, I think. 'Cause it's, it's hard. Like, there's so much manual lift- Yeah ... included in, in running a ticket- ticketing companies, like- So when I talk with startups that are sort of pursuing the ticketing space, including my own ventures into it, uh, the biggest surprise is the operational effort you need to put into it. Yes. Like, it's, you know... Because if you just look at it at face value, okay, you have a digital platform. You basically, you know, somebody's buying a ticket, you're sending them a copy. Of course, it's happening more, but, like, i- its, its core concept is not that, you know, complicated. But the operational responsibility of running a ticket company is immense.

Yeah, and I think also people think, you know, it's a ticketing company, so all you're doing is facilitating a, a payment, a transaction, but that's, that's just one part of it, right? Obv- massively important part of it, but there's all the reporting. There's the event setup. There's automations. There's, um, payouts. How do you do that? You know, like- Mm ... there's so much stuff that goes around just selling the- doing the, the actual financial transaction.

Mm. Um, and, yeah, it's easy to kind of oversee the impact. Was that a surprise for you? Um, well, I'm al- always interested in doing things very efficiently. Yeah. And so in our company, if somebody has to do things twice or three times, we try to automate it or build it differently in a, a workflow or a tool that we use or in Stager. Um, so we really are really focused in, uh, reducing the overhead and having operational e- efficiency, uh, because you have to do quite a lot. You have to answer quite a lot of questions, uh, provide a service, give a lot of love, very important. Love takes time.

Mm. Uh, so that is also a challenge, I think, for startups entering the ticketing space. Mm. And, um, I didn't underestimate it, uh, myself, um, I'm not, uh, super surprised by the amount of, uh, operational support that we have to, uh, deliver. Uh, but if you, as Jannick said, have a feature, and you have a signing fee and a really low ticketing fee, and, uh, then you have to make sure that this festival goes well- Mm ... it's a, it's a, it's a big step. And there's, besides this operational res- responsibility that you, uh, mentioned, you have the, the biggest responsibility to make sure that the money

is paid well, you sell the tickets for them, everything runs smoothly- Mm ... you get the money in time. So this whole festival or this whole venue or club is depending on the fact that you, your system performs well. Mm. And that's a, a bigger responsibility, I think. 'Cause, Jannick, you, you covered it, like, 20 minutes ago when you said you're basically their bank.

Yeah. Can you try to explain that concept? I g- I guess it depends on, you know, it's, it's case by case, but I think for many festivals, and l- let's call them event operators, ticketing is their main lifeline, right? Mm. It's, it's how they finance the whole thing. Uh, sure, there's sponsorships, sure, there's bar sales, but, you know, you're not gonna get those bar sales if you're not getting in the tickets first.

Mm. Um, so in that sense, our, our duty towards our clients is, is super important. If we don't have our, um, certifications in order, if we don't have our banking permits in order, if we don't have our, you know, all, all those systems in place, uh, and all the safety systems in place around those payments, that's, that's like life or death for, for an event organizer.

Mm. Uh, I think, you know, one of the most recent examples is DEBA. You know, like- Mm ... they had to weather the COVID storm, and they weren't really able to, to make it work. Uh, and poof, you know, like- Yeah ... lots of money was lost, uh, in that situation. And, yeah, we all have almost like a fiduciary duty towards our clients to make sure, you know, we're managing that money flow well.

Mm. Um, and in that sense, you're the bank, 'cause, you know, the- we're bringing in money, uh, we're giving them, you know, the cash flow to, to finance paying their own colleagues, uh, to finance the permit, to finance the marketing. Mm. I mean, that's usually always, like, we wanna book this big artist, and we have to really put a lot of money in meta. Uh, so our cash flow or liquidity is kind of shit right now because it's only eight months out. Uh, and in that sense, you know, you really need those ticket sales early, so you can finance all those things. But because tickets aren't being sold so early anymore, you know, people are getting used to TicketSwap, people are buying late- Mm ... people aren't buying. Um, that whole shift in ticket sales, yeah, it's kind of screwing over the liquidity, and this is why you get signing fees. This is where you get like, "Oh, well, we need, you know, we need to figure this out somehow."

Mm. Um, and in that sense, you know, giving a signing fee is like you're literally giving them a loan, you know- Mm ... or just giving them a bonus. Mm. Uh, so in that sense, yeah, I think we're basically their bank. So, Mike, the, the fiscal responsibility, um, how, how big a part of that is of your focus when you work with promoters, that you need to provide them in advance, or you need to provide them liquidity to run a, run a festival or, or show?

Yeah. Yeah, there's- we've tried to stay, stay away, far from the being a bank and, uh- Mm ... being a, a signing fee or, or all kinds of signing fees. Um, because, uh, yeah, I think it's really shitty that, uh, some, uh, like, uh, customer that you really want and is going to be your, in Dutch, the word is a parade horse. I don't know what the English word is.

Like a lighthouse client. Lighthouse client, yes. Mm. That is going to get, uh, a big bag of money, and the others have to pay for it. I think, uh, I don't like that kind of, uh, business. So we try to stay away from it, but what we've done is we've, uh, integrated our system with a payment service provider, and all our customers can create their own bank account, uh, via our system and manage it also via our system.

Mm. So if you want to do a refund, you just click- Okay, yeah ... do a refund, and it's automatically processed. So the money is on their, in their hands, and if they want to pay it out themselves, they can pay it out. Because, you know, um, one of the big reasons why big companies remain big companies is they have negotiation leverage. Like, they can negotiate contracts that, you know, smaller players can't.... So how do you, how do you sort of argue with that? Let's say, again, I'm just taking an example, Eventim or Ticketmaster, they, they wanna have a client, maybe it's a Lighthouse client, whatever it is, they want to have their client, and they say, "Okay, we can finance XYZ in this contract, and Stager can't."

Mm-hmm. How do you circumvent that? How do you argue against that? Yeah. It's, uh, w- we just do the math. Mm. And, um, uh, if they need the money right now, we are not the partner to go to. Mm. But if they are in for a long relationship, we can make a calculation that, uh, in, in general, Stager is much cheaper than an Eventim or, uh, any other of these, uh, big international companies in the long run. So you pay a lo- a lower fee. Actually, the signing fee is most of... It's actually a loan, and- Mm ... and loaning money is not very, uh, beneficial for your, uh, cash flow and your cash position.

No, because- Well, it's, it's beneficial for your cash flow, but in the end, you pay more. Yeah, and, you know, companies loaning out money, they oftentimes have money coming from other places. Like, so they also need to make money on their expenses doing that. Exactly. So it, it just, you know, bottles up, but, but it's still, like, when you want to market by market share- Mm-hmm ... again, the consolidation in place, you talked about startups being, being bought up.

Yeah. It is because there is an interest of having market shares in certain territories. Um, for example, how do you protect your market share? Yeah, by delivering, uh, perfect service- [chuckles] ... and a very good product, of course. Yeah. No, so, but I'm serious. If, um, if people, uh, start working, uh, with our tool, uh, they can get rid of seven other tools that they use.

Mm. They don't use, uh, another ticketing system. They don't need a customer data platform. They don't need, uh, Mailchimp. They don't need personnel planning tools. They can get rid of a lot of spreadsheets. So, um, yeah, th- then if they want to move away to another, uh, workflow- Mm ... then they have to set up a lot of different systems.

Mm. So we try to build as much convenience in our platform so people stay, and that's, that's the only thing that we do. Yeah. So, so when you go to cm.com's website, and you read about the company, it, it doesn't say music anywhere, so but there is obviously some sort of focus on music. Again, I'm just gonna make a presumption. You can correct me if I'm wrong. There are other ticketing and payment an- avenues that makes more sense financially for a big company to focus on. Like, why are you guys focusing on music?

I think it's, um... So CM stands for Club Message. Yeah. So that should already kind of give you a, a sneak preview of what we're... where we come from. Mm. So back in the day, Jeroen and Hilbert, the founders of CM, who are still with the company, still running the company, uh, Jeroen or Hilbert was a DJ, and he'd go to this club, and Jeroen would be there with him as his friend. Um, and then, you know, at the end of the night, they'd notice all these flyers lying on the floor because people would get these flyers when they left the, left the club, obviously shit-faced or intoxicated. You look at the flyer, maybe not even a second, and you toss it.

Mm. So they thought, "Okay, well, how can we maybe, you know, how can, how can we improve this? How can we market these events, these upcoming events, better?" So they started asking for, uh, mobile phone numbers, and that's how CM started. We basically started SMSing people that went to the club. Uh, so music, events, has always been a part of our DNA. I mean, it's still... You know, the, the founders love this industry.

Mm. Uh, so you could almost call it like a hobby project. Um, and yeah, I, I totally hear your, um, your comment on the website. We do have a separate website for Music and Live. Okay. It's very beautiful. Um, so I'll send you that later. Um, but yeah, no, I, uh... It's hard 'cause we do so many things for so many different industries. Yeah. It's, it's hard to really nail down, uh, an outward focus towards someone who might come to the, to the website, right?

Yeah. 'Cause you're trying to stay global. You're trying to s- appeal to everyone- Yeah ... 'cause we do a lot of things for a lot of people- Yeah ... a lot of organizations. But then you also need to show you're specialized, right? You need trust. You need credibility in order to sign a deal- Mm ... outside of, uh, you know, good financially. Yeah. So. You, you mentioned hobby project, and I also understand in sort of the macro environment you, uh- It's a hobby project, but we sell, like, you know, close to 20 million tickets a year.

Yeah, yeah. So I know it's a very, very serious hobby, but I, you know, I'm interested in the word, like, when I've been speaking with other ticket founders that I know somewhat personally, um, within the cinema space and within the, the sports space, when we, ever we've discussed music, which they oftentimes have, like, an offering for, like, a, you know, don't want to exclude any clients, they don't necessarily focus on it, the argument is always, like, "We can make better business other places." Um, to your point, like, you can make money in music.

Yes. Uh, but, but have you had, you know, doubts about, you know, are you the right industry if you wanna grow this company into something significant with Stager, for example? Mm. Do you mean that we, that, that we've considered doing sports events as well? You know, that could, that could be it, or, you know, e-gaming or whatever- Uh-huh ... like, uh, the other types of ticketing or, you know, uh, your product could be placed in s- somewhat other industries with maybe more healthy opportunities.

Mm. Um, of course, in the beginning, I was thinking, thinking people could use Stager in every sector. Mm. But the company has a, a DNA. Mm. Uh, the people you hire, they have a s- a interest in music. The customers you get, they have feature requests, so you start building more and more and more live music functionality.

Yeah. Um, people gain trust because other people in the live music industry, um, see Stager, and they think, "Okay, if they work with it, uh, we should take a look at it." So after, uh, 12, 14 years working on Stager, yeah, live music is, is the core of the whole system, the names that we use, the, the way we, uh, have, like, templates, how emails are set up, the tone of voice, and I really like the live music sector. Uh, it's a great, uh, sector with really-... cool people to talk to, to hang out with, uh, to help to improve their workflow.

Mm-hmm. So, uh, I, I think for us, stepping to another sector or another kind of industry is, uh, yeah- It's tough. It's a new start, actually. And I think, you know, the, the margins, you know... There's still margin to be made. I mean, I, I've seen it shrink significantly, as, as have you, Mike. Uh, I think there's been a massive decrease in, in what you can ask per ticket. Uh, I think we're one of the only suppliers in the whole ecosystem of organiz- organizing an event- Yeah ... that hasn't raised their prices. You know? Like, I feel like everyone else is raising their prices, and ours just keep coming down. Um- True.

But that, that might be dramatic a little bit. Um- But is that user sentiment, or is it, uh, internal competition? Mm, I, I think it's just an effect of the market, right? It's, it's gone- When I started, there was three or four players in the market. It was Paylogic, it was Ticketscript, uh, Stager, uh, and that was basically it. Of course, there was Ticketmaster, right? But the, the audience we serve, the target demographic we serve, is small to midsize.

Yeah. I'm sure we'll have some larger ones, but for the most part, it'll be midsize organizers. They don't tend to work with Ticketmaster. Um, so one, it is an interesting business, 'cause you get- if you scale it well, I mean, your profits, you know, scales with it. Yeah. Um, and there's all these ancillary services and complimentary services you can add on to it. There's add-ons. You can buy token tickets, you can buy tenants in advance.

Mm. That's another service fee over that ticket, right? So... But there's also something to be said for an intrinsic motivation, right? Outside of the business case. We like working in music. We like dealing with the people that work in music. We like going to Eurosonic every year. We like going to ADE every year. We like going to South by Southwest, for example. You know, these are all... Of course, you know, this is mainly from my perspective, but I think also for our founders, and this is why I refer to it as a hobby project, there's like an, an innate and an intimate connection to the industry, which is why we're still around.

Mm. And obviously, we're trying to make it work. I mean, you know, if you're just selling tickets, that's tough. It's really tough. You need to scale, the... You know, really scale. You need to do volume in or- in order to make some money. Uh, that's all changing now, I think, with, with AI and how you can maybe, you know, build a, a decent ticketing platform with way less cost than what it was 10 years ago. But still, you know, um, I think the fact that there's that intimate connection to the industry, that's, that's worth a lot. Uh, and then, yeah, sure, like, it's, it's a shitty business. It's the, the bad news business. Sure, but- But there's- Sorry, go ahead.

It's, uh... I always call it a very emotional market. Mm. And, uh, it's, it's very relational also. Yeah. You need to know the people. Um, sometimes, uh, signing a deal is, uh, talking to people for two years, meeting them at ADE, meeting them in the- at the Reeperbahn Festival, meeting them here, passing by, having a presentation, having an invitation. So, uh, people have to know- people know each other, and that's, I think, a really, uh, important part of trying to... i- important part in selling your product.

Mm. Yeah, there's a- I think there's a massive culture here. You know, people work in this industry because they like music, or they organize their own festival, or they're in a band, or whatever. Mm. And that's a, that's a massive driver, outside of obviously, we wanna make money. Yeah. Uh- It's a massive driver, but it's also, you know, one of the big barriers for outside investors joining into companies that's trying to do something. Because, you know, they, they're looking for return on investment, and you're play- playing on equal playing field with many other companies and initiatives. And I think that's, that's one of the things that's, that's really the hard part about all of this, is like, yes, you can have great founders, uh, like yourself, Mike, uh, that can, that can build something consistently over time, and prove- create, create a, you know, great service. But, but the financing of getting there can be really, really difficult. Uh, and, and very few companies actually raise enough capital, combined with, you know, founder grit and all that kind of stuff, to actually build something significant. What was your journey like? D- could you onboard external capital to help you build your company?

Well, in the, in the beginning, I was working as a, uh, a director for, uh, for Warm. And, uh, when I decided to switch, uh, to Stager, um, I raised a small amount of money, just, uh, my salary for one year, and we didn't touch it, so that was stupid. [chuckles] And, uh, I gave away shares for nothing. Um, and just before COVID, also because, uh, of the shareholders that, uh, were on board back then, said, "Yeah, you have to grow, you have to scale, you have to, uh, get investment, you have to get- be big," we were talking to a lot of, uh, VCs and, uh, and, uh, investors. And, uh, then they were quite interested because we have a interesting product that does something new in the market, and they see the upsides that, uh, that, uh, that can be there. So, uh, then they sent over a few just, uh, finish- people that just finished their studies, and we were talking about spreadsheets and sending them more spreadsheets, and more spreadsheets, and more spreadsheets. And then COVID hit, and they, and they, and they went, and they went out. And, uh, I was talking to founders that were, uh, funded, uh, before COVID. They were blowing up their companies. They were putting more and more money and, uh, hiring more and more people. And the technology and the service were shitty, so they were, like, giving discounts, yes, for the next year. And then COVID came, and they just pulled everything out.

Mm. And then I thought, "I'm not into this." Mm. "This is not my business. This is not my growth path."... um, I think we can just, uh, grow organically, and bootstrap, and just be a stable company, and do things step by step. Mm. And then we will have the biggest success, because they just want one in the 20 companies to be a success, and the other- others can die, and I was quite convinced that I could be one of these 19.

Mm. There, there's a lot of argument within entrepreneurship, especially when it's B2B, that one of the biggest strengths of a company is that they just exist for a long time. Uh, you know, a small analogy, I, I moved... I'm Danish originally, I live in Norway, and I moved to this small town. Um, and in this small town there's a venue which is kind of legendary, and they have a ticket system, um, that sort of only they use. And, like, I was trying to ask the, the venue manager, he's like: "Oh yeah, the, the guy who used to be an intern here, he built a ticket system, and he's had it for 30 years, just improved it by himself." And in Norway, everything is transparent, so you can go in and check the, the numbers of this company, and it's, it's one guy running it. And he has a full-time job, and he's making, I think, 300,000 euros a year just in, like, passive income, ticket income, just by, by being essential. He built that ticket system for that venue. They're not gonna change because everything is built for them. So there is, like, a lot of value in longevity. There's a lot of value in being present and, and having these, uh, relationships, where maybe your margins or the attractiveness of a company lies in the longevity, and sustainability, and the relationships, rather than the hyper scale.

Absolutely. So I think that's interesting with music, and I think that has a lot of merit, but also it makes it much more difficult for, like, these very savvy founders come in and, you know, try to disrupt and innovate, which I believe has a lot of positives in many other industries, but it's much harder to do in music. Um, and I think that's where a lot of the misconception is about founding companies in this- Yeah ... space.

But I, I also think so, uh, if you, if you look at the, the taxi, uh, or cab drivers industry 10 years ago, and then, yes, you have a app to arrange that, you know? Yeah. But, uh, there's no, uh, disruptive technological things to happen in the ticketing industry.

Mm. There's... I, I'm thinking a- about it along, and then you can say, "Oh, blockchain. Oh, blockchain!" But blockchain is a database. Mm. Yeah. So why, why use blockchain? What, what's super innovative about it? Mm. It's just a buzzword to, to get funding. Mm. But, uh, if the barcode has to be in the database, then if it's a shared database or a distributed database, why?

Mm. And, uh, so I don't see technological innovations that completely disrupt this industry. There, there aren't any. You have a- I feel like we're at the precipice, though, right? Like, uh, for example, identity-based ticketing, you know, deleting the PDF ticket once and for all. You know, like getting rid of that. We're not there yet, but, I mean, there's, there's... I just spoke to an interesting company just now. They're, they're fully invested in, in this part of the business. It's not just for ticketing, it's for a whole, you know, range of other, uh, services as well. But I think the day we say goodbye to our PDFs, uh, and then unlock whatever is there, I mean, you know, identity-based ticketing. So how does- what does that look like? You know, do I, do I get, like, my own app, where I can kind of keep track of everything that I've bought, and I can give consents to certain companies that wanna purchase or get my data from my app?

Mm. Um, and we're definitely heading that direction. I mean, we all wanna get rid of PDF tickets, right? 'Cause it's, there's fraud. Um- Mm ... and it's, it's kind of outdated, so we need to disrupt that piece of the, of the chain. But, but for the music industry, that's reactive, right? Because you don't, you don't really have the opportunity to change consumer behavior. Like, if, if there's- Well, there were, you know, there was- Do you think so? Back in the day, we were selling tickets through, like, record shops, and then e-ticketing came, came along, you know?

Mm. So there's, there's... Whether... When there's opportunity somewhere, when there's... For example, with the identity-based ticketing, I, I can see a lot of potential for fan engagement, fan loyalty, and marketing in, in that- Mm ... in the downstream of that. Mm. You know, we're early days, but if I get, like, my own little account, my unique account, and everything's linked to that account, I can get really hyper-personalized ads in that account if I allow it.

Mm. What do you think about that, Mike? Um, yeah, I think, uh, in, back in the days, uh, going to a record store and, uh, buying a printed ticket or, uh, yeah, uh, that, and then e-ticketing came, that was an innovation. Mm. That was a super disruptive, uh, innovation. But, um, yeah, I think this identity, um, wallet is just a feature that we all build. We will all build it. People will have identity wallets- Mm ... and instead of having Facebook logins, uh, 10 years ago, to really easily get- Mm ... a ticket- Yeah ... and try to pull some data-

Yeah ... and now, uh, maybe Spotify logins to get, uh, people's interests, I think, uh, you will have a identity wallet or it's, uh, on a, on a chip on your phone- Yeah ... and we just have to connect with it to make life easy. Yeah. So it's a feature, and we will all build it. We will build it. Yeah. It, it will take some time to build it, but it's, it's not going to change the industry.

But isn't it gonna come from the big companies? You know, I know this is a poor comparison, but, like, passkey on Mac, to some degree it's like a identity-shaped access that can give access to many things, automated through iOS system, and it's not really what we're talking about. But, but at the end of the day, wouldn't it be the big tech companies that introduces this, and then ticket companies that sort of, um, onboards it into their system? Or what's your approach to it?

Maybe it's the government that wants that. [chuckles] This, this is what I was... This is why I do think it will be kind of disruptive, because this isn't coming from a tech company trying to make a quick buck, this is also, like, proper regulatory pressure- Yeah ... uh, that's behind this. Yeah. Um, but the downstream effects are like, once that's built, and once we've got the base need covered, which is like knowing who's coming into the football stadium, because he's a hooligan, and he's, you know, brings in torches all the time- Yeah ... once that basic need is met and that works- Yeah -there's gonna be, like, a, an add-on, and an add-on, and an add-on, and that's gonna change the way we communicate with fans. Uh, the PDF will disappear. That's a future function, whatever.

Yeah. Uh, but I think this, you know, this identity-based ticketing is part of a broader move towards just a completely different way of selling tickets and communicating with fans. I mean, in five years or maybe 10 years, there's not gonna be a website, maybe. Mm. There's not gonna be a ticket shop. It's just me with my device, maybe it's, like, plugged into my neck, uh, or I'm wearing my glasses, and it's got a little, you know, uh, microphone in it, and I'm like, "Hey, Alexa, um, kinda want some tickets to the show tonight. Um, what's on?" And then it'll just tell me, "Oh, this and this and this is on." "Okay, now, but I wanna check out, uh, Warm," if it still exists.

Mm. Um, "Oh, this and this is on." You know- And then you buy, and then they have your data, 'cause you're leg- logged into this, you know, this little My App thing. Mm. And then, boof, you just- it's linked to you, and it's done. And that, that will, I think... 'Cause w- a lot of ticketing companies right now pride themselves on, "We have a beautifully designed ticket shop"- Yeah - "and our PDF tickets are super customizable, and we..." You know- Mm ... th- this is the, the status quo. That's gonna, I think, disappear in the, in the, in the upcoming years.

We will be an interface to sell things. Yeah. I think that's really interesting, um, to consider ticketing companies like that, like, even more of an interface, even more of a sort of middleware to some degree. Like, you know, just to analogy, I, I code a bit, uh, well, quite a lot, uh, and especially through vibe coding, and, like, I really like to do things fast, but also actual production environments. And oftentimes, when there's something new to do, I just open Comet, which is Perplexity's browser, and say, "Hey, I need this and this user and this and this, and I need these API keys for this new thing," and it just runs in the background, does it for me, and I check back 10 minutes later, it's gotten me everything, and I put it into the environment. And this is what we're gonna see a lot more of. So I think it's interesting, the point of, like, being this more of a middleman, less of a brand to some degree with users. Mike, um, you talk about if you do build a good ticketing company with relationships, and you can make margins, it's a good business.

What's sort of your goal with your company? Like, there is a lot of consolidation. I can only imagine that you've had a lot of acquisition opportunities or something in that direction. Like, what's your thoughts about this? Yeah. Um, uh, another misconception, uh, that I had when I started Stager is that I would finish my dream project in a few years. So I'm still working on it.

Mm. And, um, uh, what I really needed as a business director is get a financial grip on the operation. Mm. And, uh, what Stager is doing is, uh, the supporting the workflow, uh, but, uh, the final goal will be that, uh, you have, uh, without having to make budgets manually, uh, have, uh, like, real-time insights in your, uh, the, the financial situation of your event, while automating all the processes.

Mm. So I still have a lot of ideas, uh, how to improve, uh, and, uh, build Stager further. So there's, there's this intrinsic goal of, uh, yeah, building this system that I, I think, and I, I think to know, uh, would be really, really appreciated by the industry.

Is that a political version of, "You don't sell it yet?" Oh, no. [chuckles] No. If the price is right. And, uh, um, so, so... And our- my second, uh, goal and dream is, uh, to expand internationally. Okay, yeah. So, and of course, uh, I can now think, "Oh, we will do this, this in, uh, two years," but it will probably take [chuckles] a few years longer.

Yeah. But it- so again, you know, everyone has limited energy- Mm-hmm ... uh, as a founder, and, you know, building something takes time. Yeah. Um, is it worth it to continue when, when... And I guess you described the, you know, getting more competitive, and maybe there's less money to be made, and, like, and I only imagine there's a lot of consolidation that, you know, has a lot of p- pressure.

Mm-hmm. Is the pursuit worth it for you? Yeah, still. Yes, I'm, I'm enjoying actually every phase that the company goes through. Yeah. Uh, just from this startup, "Hey, we're in the same room, and we're going to rock the world," and then, uh, becoming a more serious company, and now, uh, yeah, you have, uh, a bigger team, and, uh, your role as a CEO changes completely.

Mm. So, uh, yeah, I, I really like these chal- challenges, and I still, uh, I still love it a lot. [chuckles] Good. But, but Jannick, um, behind every great story, there's, there's always problems. So in your opinion, what is the biggest problems in the ticketing industry right now? Oh, it's, um, it's a large question with many answers. Um,

Mm ... uh, which is a huge, huge challenge. Um- If you, if you do want to attribute the reason for that, like, why are promoters struggling? I know, um, this is big, difficult, hard questions you can't really give one answer to, but, like, what's your take on it? I mean, you know, uh, artists are expensive, way more expensive- Mm ... uh, because their monetary, you know, flows are changing. Um, the permits, for example, in Am- I, I live in Amsterdam, you know? Getting a permit for a festival is almost impossible.

Mm. Um, there's so many different, you know, elements to organizing an event that just rack up the costs. Mm. And you can't increase your price on the ticket that much. Organizational costs are probably going up 20, 30, 40% in some cases. Yeah. I th- personally think that the adoption by promoters and event operators of the available technology is still lagging somewhat, and I think it's, for a large part, got to do with the fact there's just, like you said, less resources. You know, you, you gotta... Promoters have to do so much more nowadays with so much less- You can't do that to your ticket price. People won't buy your tickets. So how do you, how do you navigate that delta, right?

Mm. I mean, uh, you can probably add on 5 to 10% every year on a ticket- Mm ... if your event's doing well- Mm ... and if you've got a-... unique concept that people will come back for. Um, but how then do you still close that gap, right? Mm. How do you, how do you make sure that with a smaller team, and people that are becoming more and more selective of where they go because they have less m- money to spend on all this, you know, discretionary stuff- Mm.

How, how do you, how do you put that all together? Mm. And this is why you're seeing a lot of consolidation. This is why smaller event organizers might seek out the bigger ones, and like, "Hey, do you guys want a piece of the pie?" Mm. "We need your operational grid. We need your back- we need your back office- Yeah ... 'cause we don't know how to organize our finances." And then, you know, there goes their independence. Yeah. Um, so it's, it's like a big struggle with, how do I stay independent? Do I not stay independent, but then what do I sacrifice? Um, for us, as, as ticketers, um, I, I don't know whether we c- wanna call us a ticketing company, but let's just, you know, for, for this podcast- For the ease of it, yeah.

Yeah. Um, there's so much pressure on, on the financials, simply the financials. There's so many chats nowadays where it's just like, "Okay, yeah, thanks for calling. What's the, what's the fee?" Yeah. "You haven't even seen the platform." "Yeah, I know, but that's okay." [chuckles] "But like, you know, we trust you'll be able to do it, but what's the fee?" And it's so hard to have a, a proper dialogue with someone. I, I... I'm generalizing here, obviously.

I understand. Um, but this is something where I think the wrong decisions are being made based on financials. You know, like, there might be a great fit for you, uh, with Stager, but if someone else is offering half the fees, then you'll probably go with them. Mm. But what's the downstream effect? What are you sacrificing there? Mm. Um, so I think we need to be way more aware of what's technically possible- Mm ... like what technology is out there that can help me organize my event more efficiently.

Mm. I think there's being- there's not enough, you know, focus on, on that piece of it. Because it's, for many promoters, I don't think it's, it's what they like to do. They don't like to be dealing with tech companies. They wanna promote an event. They wanna book great artists that they've always admired. They wanna connect with people that come to their, to their events, you know? Mm.

This is all very techy. No, it makes sense. It's getting very techy. It's getting very nerdy, and they don't necessarily wanna stay focused on that. So then, you know, it's, it's... That's a tough bridge. Yeah. Um, and I think there, there's a lot to be done there. Mm. Uh, look at, for example, customer service. You know, we still talk to a lot of big promoters that don't really have anything in place to automate customer service or to make it good. That, "Ah, shit, yeah, we gotta get a couple of interns two weeks before our event- Yeah ... 'cause then we get all these questions."

"We have a FAQ on our website." [chuckles] Yeah. [chuckles] "Yeah, well, we got an FAQ, right?" [chuckles] No, like, automate that. Yeah. There's agents out there for not that much money, that you can put on your website- Yeah ... and they will serve your customers really well, and then those moments- Mm ... which you think are costs, costly moments, 'cause, oh, well, now we need to answer this person, and that's gonna cost me X euros, and blah, blah. No, you need to automate that, that interaction, and then turn it around into a commercial moment.

Yeah. Right? But again, if, if someone is pressured, you know, oftentimes the default is we can't afford long-term thinking, which, you know, might bite them in the ass later, but, like, that's the natural reaction, and also sometimes they'll be out of the business. Mike, if you wanted to give a different big problem that you see- Yeah ... what would that be? The financial pressure that, uh, Yannick is mentioning is there. Uh, so, um, I just made a presentation for our customers that we'll have tomorrow, and, uh, I've calculated the fulfillment time, uh, between 2029 pre-corona- Yeah ... and last year. And you can see that, for example, in age category, the millennials, they have decision-making stress. It went down 30 days, uh, 30%, so, uh, that means it takes 30% longer for the money to be in the bank of the organizer.

Yeah. Um, prices are rising. Uh, there's, of course, this whole crazy Superstruct, uh, situation with, uh, buying, and then killing, killing. Try to explain that. Well, Superstruct is, uh, buying a lot of festivals. Yep. And, uh, there's a hedge fund behind it.

Yeah, yeah. And hedge funds, they like- Spreadsheets ... money. So everything that's not profitable enough, uh, which... And there's, like, really big brands, uh, that have, like, great following, but they don't make X percent- Yeah ... they're being killed. Um, so that's, uh, that's also changing, uh, the industry.

But is that changing the, the culture of festivals? Again, this is my own personal experience. I, I do know a good deal of promoters, and I, I've also been a part of festivals and providing access and such, and more and more access, especially in Norway, I don't appreciate this, it's getting more and more about alcohol, alcohol. Uh, and when I speak to the promoters behind it, it's like, "We're having a PE company owning our, our brand, and we need to provide this return, and the more alcohol we can make it, the better we can do it." And so they change the whole programming, they change the whole feel of the festival, just in order to drink more. You know, this- Mm ... it was maybe just one scenario. But I, I see this... For me, this is very confusing, that the, the artistic choices are based on, we choose the artists that we believe can sell the most alcohol. Like, that changes a lot of things. Is that something you're feeling because of the PE acquisitions or?

Yeah. Uh, other decisions are, um, not, not exactly related to the Superstruct ac- acquisition, but, um, uh, acquisitions, but, uh, the financial pressure makes people decide to do different things, to book a tribute band with a lot of, uh, 40-plus people that, uh, like to go to ABBA and drink a, a bottle of white wine.

Yeah. Uh, that's better than having this really cool DJ, and everybody's on ketamine- Yeah ... or on MDMA and just drinking water in the toilet. Yeah. So, yes, financial pressure changes decisions that are being made. Mm. There's also a bigger thing going on in the industry that, uh, I think is really challenging. I think, um, grassroots venues, uh, grassroots clubs- Yeah ... are getting really into, uh, trouble because of this. And we are going to a situation where you have a star, and it can just be a YouTuber that, uh, starts rapping, and then they can sell out, uh, a big show. But, uh, yeah, uh, the whole, uh, how do you say that, uh, chain-

Mm ... in the industry is b- is, uh, under pressure, where you just have local bands playing, building up a career, DJs playing, building up a career, making the next step, growing their career, getting an album out. And, um, yeah, so, so it's- people don't want to take risks with this local band or this, uh, unknown DJ. They want to be sure that they have their revenue, so they get the big artist with the big name and, uh, a lot of, uh, social media power. And, uh, that's, that's going to make it, uh, hard because you need all the chains in the industry to have a vital and, uh, ecosystem.

Yeah. I think it goes back to, and that's... This is sort of where we rounding off the conversation today, is the intent of being in this industry for both of you guys is, is the, the culture. It's, it's music, it's the relationships, and that's important, and to navigate the, the outside components of that can be difficult, but that's also why it's purpo- purposeful to some degree. And when I talk to you, Mike, like, is it more attractive to be in other, you know, industries? And, and Yannick, you talk about this to some degree being a hobby, um, even though it's not, and it's sort of set on the edge. The, the pursuit of the importance of what music is and what music provides to the audience is also what drives the industry more than just capitalistic gain. And if all players thought like that, I think music would have a hard time. So thank you so much for the talk today, guys.

Yeah. Uh, I really appreciate it. I think we covered a lot of interesting topics. I think we could talk for hours more. Yes. Um, but for the purpose of Eurosonic, um, thank you for today, and thank you for joining the podcast. Thanks. Thank you for being here. [applause] And the music starts. Yeah, yeah. [chuckles] Perfect timing. Let's enjoy it!

Beers. Yeah. Thank you. I'm in the mood for a-