From LA's Grind to Global Impact: The Lightworks Story

One of the things that separates Los Angeles from New York, London, Southeast Asia is probably like visionaries is people whose specialty is like seeing something in 5 years that doesn't exist today. I think that's one of the gifts that this city offers. It's the place where visionaries come to, you know, I don't think it's even the place where dreams come true, I think it's the place where like dreams are created cuz this

is not the place where dreams come true. Absolutely not. Sponsored by All Feat, decentralized blockchain solutions for the music industry. Produced by Amplitude Ventures Consulting, partners in early stage music tech. Today we've got a really special episode. I'm sitting down with Jason, Chris, two people I've been lucky enough to know for years. We talk about their wild journey through the music industry, from grinding it out in LA to launching

their own company we're talking about what it really takes to build something meaningful in music let's jump in all right guys welcome back to the sa Nations podcast today I have a quite special episode uh Jo Samuel and Chris welcome to the studio thank you it's good to be here well I guess JS is in the studio Chris you're the nonon but U looks amazing yeah um well this is

special because we, uh, had some common story together, uh, and I've known you guys for I would say sixish years, maybe I'm wrong. I think so, yeah. And we met in LA, uh, and sort of took off creative journeys together to some degree, um, and now six years later, uh, you guys are working together and have a quite a phenomenal trajectory to your journey

and the purpose of this episode is really understanding the music industry from its, um, war creating music, uh, managing creators of music and really the ups and downs of that. Um, I've sort have been on the sidelines following it and it's been quite amazing to follow, but I'm very sure there's been ups and downs, but, um, just for the people who don't know you, uh, Chris and I'm just describe each who you are

what you do. Yeah, Chris, why don't you start us off? I want to know who you are. So I managed John Samuel and I met John Samuel through Jacob in a session, which is funny. Um, at the time I was pursuing music, I had no desire to be on the music business side, but I met Jacob and he was talking about his company Mantic and

of's music publishing and I after the session I said, what is music publishing? Let's a beer. Uh, we started talking and I found it really interesting and, uh, at this point I was already in a band for years and producing for years and nothing was really where I wanted it to be, so I figured it might was, it might be good time to change. So that just hearing Jacob talk about what music publishing is like really intrigued me and then, um,

that's kind of how the journey started with John Sam because he was with Mantic, but so I've been managing him for the past five, four or five years, something like that. Um, and then and John Samuel, me and our other partners started a company recently which is also really exciting, which will dive into. Um, but yeah, that's the footnotes of me. Yeah, I, um, I, so I'm from South

Africa originally. I was born in Johannesburg and then I, uh, spent my like high school years, I went to high school in Zimbabwe, um, and like both areas are quite, um, peculiar places to, uh, like have a desire to become a

um, like predominant part of the music industry. I think for me it, I was really influenced by this like online movement that was happening primarily on YouTube, these like 2013 Tumblr bands were transitioning more into like long form video content as greater

expressions of what their bands and what their Artistry was and so what that did is it got like it created this whole new reach so that like teenagers in Zimbabwe could like watch 21 Pilots full twoh hour set could watch The 1975 play Madison could play the O2 um could watch like the neighborhood do a full

set and understand that like music is something so much bigger than CDs, so much bigger than streaming, so much bigger. It's like this is like a real thing. Like they didn't even have to come to me for me to see this stuff is like real and it's important, it's human and it's cool. And for some reason like I see myself in there. And so what that led to

me is like I'm a really obsessive person. I for a while I thought that was not a good thing about me and then I decided to twisted and I was like this is the best thing about me is how deep I want to go into everything I'm interested in. And, um, I like found out how consistent the artists that I liked were also their own producers or at

least involved in their own production it was like a one toone ratio for me and um and so I went on like my own Quest at like 16 to become a music professional I that was like my goal the whole time I wanted to become a professional inside of music and so that led me to Cape Town for a lot for a

little while. I was going to go to London and that kind of fell through, which led me to LA. I moved to LA when I was 18, um, to work for this guy Larry Getts, an absolute engineering music legend. And the reason why I was, I was just down to absolutely make that happen is because I like knew he was a pro. I know he knew things, I knew he had so much confidence

that he was almost cynical about it and I wanted that. I wanted someone who was like tired and angry to teach me. And, um, and I like lied about living in LA to get the job. I was like, yeah dude, I already live there man, I'm just tearing it up in Hollywood, you know me. And he was like, cool, like let's meet in like a couple weeks. And I was like, that good

man. And so I moved to LA as fast as I could so I could meet with him, um, and like beg to be his assistant for free, um, and work as much as he could possibly, uh, give me at that studio. And so that's like, that's what that's how I got to LA is just this like

like there's no such thing as a no type of answer, uh, pursuit of becoming a music professional, um, being a part of this like movement that found me through like YouTube. Um, yeah, and then through that like I was just like, okay, well being an artist, there's like, I like my music isn't good enough to make any money yet,

but I love it, so I need to do some stuff. And, uh, I was just meeting everybody music related and just giving like everything. And that eventually led me to Jacob, or Jacob as they call him in Europe. And, uh, Jacob was like, we did a session and it was, it was, it was cool, it was weird. Um, afterwards I did my grand reveal that I was like two years old, I

was 19, but still. Um, and that like kind of changed everything. And then from there we started like working together a lot because Jacob loves opportunities and I love taking opportunities. And so, uh, and then that introduced me to Chris and to a bunch of other like incredible collaborators through J and what you were doing. And that I consider was

like the beginning of like my music industry like, um, quest if, yeah, sure. So that's what got me there, that's what got me to meet you all. Amazing. And I'm very excited to sort of see that this is, um, taking off now and we'll get to that in a moment. But one thing I think is really interesting is you pain

the picture of the, of the, of the grind of being in LA and basically begging to work, you know, that wouldn't happen in that many other industries. Yeah, um, is actually my only reflection upon LA because I am, I'm going to move there at one point. Um, but one of the things that really struck me about LA and Chris would know this because he's a native is

that the amount of, uh, realism or the opposite in that city is just immense because you need to just somehow process and handle the sheer amount of, um, devastation means to actually live there and try to make it. And I think for me that was when I saw this and I saw you J and I was very much looking up

to your spirit like that's not for me, like not right now, like I'm going to get there some other path. And that's sort of where I'm sort of building towards in a much slower way than most people do. And it's not because LA me is like the place, I just believe there's something very special about that city in you guys can probably witness that and talk a bit about it. But so to some degree, uh, J you had a let's call it traditional, uh,

struggle into music, which is kind of sad to say that, but that's, yeah, but maybe just you can, you can talk about sort of your colleagues and your friends, like it seems like that is the usual is way to sort of struggle away into that career. Yeah, I think, I think, um, one of the, one of the things that separates, uh, a

music hub, uh, like Los Angeles from New York, from London, from Southeast Asia, um, is that like LA is probably what it attracts the most is probably like visionaries is people whose specialty is like seeing something in five years that doesn't

exist today. I really like, I think that's one of the gifts that this city like offers is it like really, it's a, it's the place where visionaries come to, you know, I don't think it's even the place where dreams come true, I think it's the place where like dreams like are created. Um, because this is not the place where dreams come true, absolutely not. No, I think, uh, and so as a result, if

if this is the place where like people who dream come to, then you're going to have a lot of, um, potentially I guess vulnerable people working as hard as they can towards something that the only proof of is in their brains, is in their head, is this vision that they have. And, um, I've like

especially the friends that I like hold close to right now are all people who had their own visions and like experienced the realist, um, smart people around them saying this is ridiculous, you're going to lose all your money, you are like this isn't, this is a bad idea for you. And

them saying I don't care, like this like it is, it's not living if it's not radical. And that's like, um, that is something that inspires me so much more than the concept of making it or the concept of like, uh, a arbitrary success

is like the idea of like a powerful radical life inside of the arts. I think that's the thing that drives people deep down, whether they know it or not, is that like, and I think that's what keeps people here because this is not a city that by any means that you would particularly want to put down roots in. Um, but what I think it offer is, I think

it offers musicians, creatives and writers and a lot of forms of people inside of entertainment, it provides them a place where there's not like a ceiling, it provides them a place where you are encouraged to dream really big, where you're encouraged to start something that's going to take you five years, you're encouraged to be like so unrealistic, uh, and just understanding

that the person who is capable of fulfilling that dream is not you today, it'll probably be you in two years or three years or four years, but you'll have to become them. And I think that's so cool. Where else in the world does that exist? I have found nowhere else. I think it's only here. You know what's funny, I have like such a different experience because I'm from LA and I feel like I never really grew up

in a creative capacity. I feel like that kind of happened later in my life. So here and Jayce talk about this, I obviously agree now that I've been in it for a while, but doing the band thing and like I never really saw it as that because that's all I've known. So I'm like, oh yeah, LA's cool, like, but I think if I were to have moved to LA from somewhere else to pursue it, I don't think I had, I would have had what it

takes to like really give everything because at the end of the day like I'm from here, so if the band didn't work out I'm still in LA, my home's here. Uh, but it's funny that it took me years and years, like a years and years after doing the band thing and since I started managing Jace to see that what you're saying is so true. And now I'm like, oh my God, that's so true. But I didn't see that

at all growing up. I, that never crossed my mind, which yes, it's the materialization of the invisible. Of course you can't see it because not even the people doing it can see it really. That's weird. But, um, Chris, I'm gonna ask you since you're sort of even manager, um, I think, uh, Jay said something about making it and I know that's all relative, but like I would say in pretty much

objective terms you guys are, you know, the 0.1 percentile, uh, success when you stories, uh, when it comes to LA and S the journey you've been on. But Chris, just to set the scene, sort of where are you guys right now in your careers? What are you seeing happening? It's funny Jason, I have conversations about this like daily, um, and it's interesting that when you sit down and think about

where you're at, like you see where you're at right now and you kind of forget about the past two years. So I'm only focused on right now and like I feel it's always like we're always trying to push like, okay, we got to go further, we got to go further. But when I sit and think about right where we started to where we are now, that's a pretty big feat. Like you know, we don't have any songs in Billboard 100 right now, but just knowing that we've stuck together and we've been

building this thing and now these conversations with bigger sessions are more normal or like we'll have a meeting at a label and like what would have scared the crap out of me two years ago, like shivering to go in there, now it's just like, oh it's cool. But and we like know people at that label, like we walk in and we recognize like three people. Yeah, and it's so easy to lose sight of all that, but like so it's interesting to talk about this and like kind of

really sit down and think about the past um I don't think it answered your question at all uh no it's like but it does to some degree because um you know in my own words you guys are releasing music with pretty big assist you have um big representation and association with uh major Global well-known players and um I think that in itself is a

Success story in sort of the competitive environment you're in, um, and what I think is interesting that is like the struggle to get there, like, uh, one thing I remembered, I think that was probably a couple years ago or so, where with Jason Chris, he, you announced that JCU got um signed to Simon Cowell, uh, and sort of that collaboration, which, uh, in

in most, um, most public, uh, perception is like the epitome of like entertainment. Um, could you tell me a bit how that sort of came about? Like, when did Simon hear your music and what happened there? Because that's obviously not a made it moment that it needs to come into realization with all things, but like, there was definitely a pretty big, um, statement on sort of where

your career is going. Yeah, I kind of want to, I do want to tag Chris in this story, like, but I'll start at least with part of my perspective of it. Um, I think this is like a very clear just global example of like

give your best to everything when no one is watching, because more people are watching than you think. Like, I was not making music with the perspective of like top music executives are going to be hearing this and are going to be considering, um, wanting to own this,

wanting to have a piece of it, wanting to invest in it. So I was just making stuff that I like. I had to consistently come back to why, to make music, why to do things at a high level, why to push yourself, and why to get better. Um, and like, it was important for me to ground myself in why I moved to LA, why I came here was to

become a professional, because I want to do things, I want to change things, I want to be a part of a movement, I want to be a part of a voice of a story. And so I was making music and I still am making music from a place of like something important will happen through me, around me, and my music is going to be my reflection of that. I've only

experienced songs to change my life, and um, and through that, like, someone like a Simon Cowell heard the music and liked it. Like, and I never met him. The only association was going to be through the story that Chris is going to tell, but the way my feeling through it is really like this is a very clear story of like

you don't know who's listening so like work Act be the person that everyone's listening to you know assume that into yourself and like you've no idea what's just gonna come out of nowhere you've no idea I'm tapping Chris in now yeah um no I actually completely

agree with Jason I've seen it on this whole journey like even if it's even if he's doing a song with like a really small artist um he'll put he's made a comment one time like you know what like I'm the treated it as if this was a du Lea song and I'm going to give it everything as if it was du Lea and I thought that like that's resonated with me so much cuz I'm like on you know we're all humans so if it's like artist

if it's like an artist that you know, you're like, I don't really want to be doing this, but he always gives his all 100% of the time, maybe to a fault sometimes where I'm like, all right man, like, you know, you got to relax a bit. Um, but on that, so he's, he was working at his craft for every day when he was in a

um we met um and full disclosure my wife it used to be Simon's executive assistant which sounds like oh well that's an easy shoe in and like I can tell you right now that is not the case whatsoever honestly if anything it makes it a little harder um so the direct connection was from that but that doesn't it wasn't

like, hey, uh, Taylor, go show Simon this song and get him signed. Like, I, that couldn't have been any more opposite ever. Um, and it was a very slow burn, and like just waiting for Jace to, you know, hone in on his skills and hone in on this and that, to the point where we felt like, all right, these songs are like really good, to the point where we would

feel comfortable having like someone like a Simon listening to it. And so when the time was right, he heard the songs and he was intrigued by it. Um, and said, oh, who is this? And then, you know, the conversation happened, and then he's like, oh, I want to meet him. So then we had a meeting with him, and yeah, obviously, um, my wife being in the inside definitely helped, but like, really what sold it was

when Simon met Jace we had like a little meeting and like Jace is so young and so youthful and like so green like in a good way like he's not like the cynical jaded bitter producer he's just happy to be doing music and like you can't fake that and Simon I think picked up on that at our first meeting and was just like I love this energy you know because Jacob I'm sure you know too but like um

there's, it's so easy to become cynical and just kind of jaded and just like, ah, F this is miserable, and there's something so beautiful about keeping the innocence of making music and keeping it fun. Um, which we found is kind of hard, it's kind of a rare thing, which I gener, really know, uh, so that's how the whole signing thing came up, and then he obviously liked what he heard, and then

we didn't sign right away. There were still a couple months of like, okay, we're showing him more songs and more songs, and then it got to the point, okay, like he wanted to start a publishing company. H, he had another artist signed, and then it was kind of made sense to like, okay, let's explore signing a producer writer, because he's never signed a producer writer, it was artist on the label side, so it's kind of a just a new endeavor

for all part parties, which made it really cool, because there was no blueprint, there was no like, oh, this is what you do now. Um, and we've just been building together since. Yeah, and it's quite beautiful, like to be honest, and the way that I sort of see you guys' dynamics, at least, you know, back then, maybe still now, is that Chris, maybe because you never really bought into that hype culture, and I'm

not saying Chase is, but like, there's fundamental differences between like projecting energy into universe and then also withholding it, and I think that at least how I perceive it, I think that's really been both of you guys benefit, that there's a way to fully understand the career of the Chas of song. Because Chris, you've literally been there for like day one, yeah, uh, and still sort of being able to have

that calmness, um, but also understand s of the full scope of the journey. I think that's quite unique story, to be honest. What I, what I think we've talked about this before, but I think one of like the best assets I had in, had respectively was like the lack of knowledge. I never had managed, I didn't know what music publishing was, I didn't know literally anything, for better worse,

and like so I it's not like I uh started working at a management company and they said okay this is what you do here's the template here's that like literally I can't tell you it was all trial and error and some of it was probably terrible uh some of it was probably unorthodox some of it probably helped make me into like this my style I guess um because I had no frame of reference

whatsoever I was just like I think this might work let's try it and then sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't you know and I honestly prefer that I think uh it aligns with how I have always approached music too like I approach a lot of things in my life as uh if you find the right people you can teach anyone skills um and like I'm not

saying I taught Chris anything. Chris is completely self-taught, and it's beautiful, and he's an artist in his own way, but like, it's, uh, it has proven true to me more and more and more that like anyone can learn anything. Uh, me, like I feel that way by myself, I can learn absolutely anything. Um, it's the person that matters more than the things, and uh, so I'm so

much more, I'm so grateful that like the, like EV, day-to-day, big picture and small picture player that I'm working with is someone who has that belief about thems, that they can learn anything, that they, you don't need years and years of experience in management to be creative with it, to be smart with it, to strategize. Like, why

do you need that kind of validation? It's like you, it's like, it's like needing a job to get experience, but you need experience to get the job. It's like, just start it yourself, get your experience, and watch your perspective of what managing is change, what management is. Like, you'll change the landscape just by being someone who's freestyling. But also, I think what's great is that Jace had no

P pep perspective of what a manager does or doesn't do like I'm sure you had an idea right like also I had no idea what a manager doesn't do no I really didn't care I was like just help me man that's honestly that was the most uh freeing part was just like I don't know like let's try to do something like it because if jaay had like you know string of managers prior there's so it's so easy to like oh well this one did this and this one did that and you're

constantly comparing and contrasting and maybe losing sight of what this new thing could be. Uh, but because we had literally no frame of reference, I think that was the best thing that ever could have happened for this. And one, I thing is really interesting about you guys is I, um, I GNA say this with honesty, like, I have never met more hungry and humble students in my life of music, you know,

and but I mean it, and I think that's also why it's so interesting for me to sort of circle back to talk with you guys, is I can't remember the exact sort of, uh, statements of it, but as far as I know, uh, JS, when we had our first session, as far as I remember, that was like your first co-writing session, like a pop context, like, I think so, I think it was, let's say it was, for the sake of the story, at least one of the first.

I just remember like you really didn't have any idea, to be honest. Um, yeah, and it was a really fun session, I was really impressed, but like, you were [ __ ] lost behind that computer, that's for sure, like in how to interact the session. No, I agree with you, I agree with you, don't try to justify it. Yeah, and Chris, like you literally had no clue whatsoever about music, like it, when it comes to the industry, like,

but what was so interesting is, um, I think in some degree I was like in a, in a mentor is position by that time, not that I knew anything, it's just I just knew a tiny bit more than you guys. But the sheer amount of, um, listening you did to the small things I had to say, and like trying absolutely

everything, and everything I threw at you guys, you both took it in. I think that's also just what I'm sensing now, of course you guys are more selective, just because you know, uh, you've come so far and you can't just, you know, uh, take anything, but you guys have just been humble students and just extremely hungry and just sacrificing everything. Like, you know, Chris, you know, I think

that the time you work with Mantic, I don't think you ever like really a anything whatsoever from it. Um, and I've never had like a comment whatso, like I didn't either, but you know, I think it was a journey one together, but and there was no, there was no resistance relance to that. You just like, hey, I'm here to learn. And I think maybe that's actually my biggest takeaway from you guys, like them standing on the outside

and once of the inside is I haven't met students like you it I think yeah uh James you're incredibly but I think if there's anything you have above else it's that it's that there you won't find the arrogance you won't find the entitlement you won't find the

typical things you would associate to someone who's come for, um, and you've just stay that really hungry student. Do you guys, thank you, is that still, I do, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna hide it. I know I, through the amount of artists and ANRs and managers and executives we've met along the way,

the people who Chris and I get along with the best are always the people who are just open, who are, who like are have a similar understanding, um, of like the wild west nature of music and how so much of its trial and error. Even in fact, I think that's actually what executives think, like that's what makes them good executives, is the understanding that it

is trial and error. There is no rule book. Like, we have music books to inform us of how to try our best guesses, but it is still so much guesses. Um, and like, I think, you know what, I think like a famous quote someone did that like the second you stop, uh, learning is the second you stop growing. And like, I

don't, I know, I think, uh, I know that what Chris and I want to do is not about achieving one big goal. We're not trying to climb a mountain, we're trying to be mountain climbers, you know. It's not like we're trying to get to the top of one mountain, it's like, no, we are going to be climbing mountains forever, because we love climbing mountains. We don't, we're not doing this to tell everyone we got to the top of Everest. Is part of

what we do, and that like, it's so much more exciting, it's so much easier to get through droughts, to get through dry spells, to get through like corporate BS, if we know that like, we're not doing this because we want to make a lot of money off of one label, we're doing this because we love doing music, we love this stuff, and we believe

art is incredibly important. And if we believe art is incredibly important, we believe that people in music, people in art need to view it as important, act about it like it's important. I think that's encouraged me to just stay as humble as I can, as excited as I can, because it's just, it's bigger than making songs, I think. And being a small person, a part of a big

machine, I think helps the machine work a little better, be a little better, and that's exciting, that's so much more fulfilling than trying to get something. And I'll say on that, Jace makes my job so easy, because he's always a student and he's is always looking to become better, and like, there's plenty of times situations have happened where if

I was him, I probably would have thrown the towel and said no, I'm not doing that. But no matter what, he always, like, even he doesn't want to, he'll be like, ah, all right, no, I got to do it, I got to finish this. And that makes, I can't explain to you how easy that makes everything I do, because instead of me having to beg him to do something, he just does it, and like, it just makes everything, it's just kind

Of a like the core I think the core of our whole thing is just giving our best as cheesy as that sounds um and that's all you can do you can give your best you can't guarantee a record's going to do well you can't guarantee anything but if you give your best and it doesn't do well at least you can know you know what we did everything we can as opposed to being like we kind of skipped all these corners could have been better like I

think that's probably where Jay's drive comes from is he never wants to hear back a record and be like I got lazy there like he'll tinker with anything for hours until it's just right and it just shows and it's beautiful to see from the outside Masterpiece is only masterpie is only baby that's the rule but I have a question you know there's the um we call obvious struggle

but the other struggle of being an is trying to make it you know of you know not making money and needed to do side jobs and being constantly poor and I think that's you know interesting itself but it's I but that's not where I want to go so you guys you know I know there's other hardships than just you know getting food in the table can we spend some time sort of understanding as a creat in LA

and as repr sensitive in LA what are the other struggles AR you guys need to navigate be on just the struggle itself oh this is this is going to take up so much time I love this question I uh well to start with a problem that I kept on running into um

was caring more that as a producer caring more about the songs than the artist and I'm sure that there are people out there who are going to feel offended by that I'm sorry but the truth hurts um but the uh but what I mean what I mean that what I mean is that like I care in I care so much about the songs I

do I really do and I'm really trying not to just see the song when we're making it because I don't think that's a good producer I think a good producer sees the whole vision from the conception of writing it all the way to it on stage and along the way there's so much that goes down to like the

down to like the colors inside of the promo and the photos used and what your video says and who you work with and like the like the um story and the air that is like built around your artistry with this song like it is heartbreaking to have such a

clear vision and to try and communicate that with someone who just doesn't get it and doesn't really care as much because like I'm going to give absolutely everything to your songs like that's kind of the guarantee I give people is I'm going to care so much this one matter to me like it's my child and uh to not receive that back sucks like I've called Chris more times

than I can count just like just so just frustrated over my head and with emotions about like how little people care about something I care so much about and it's not even my project you know Chris what do you think that's obviously a huge one uh a massive one that uh I feel like is more

common than I would have thought um but it's interesting haven't done the band thing for a long time and producing like I see so many blind spots I had like glaringly obvious ones where I'm like how did I not see that but now on this side I see it happening all the time and I get it because I feel like when you're an artist and I was never you full

full artist but when you're an artist like it is so much work like to be an artist and then one word we always come to is like intention like what's the intention of this like are you being an artist because you know you feel like you're being drawn to say something are you being an artist because you want to be Tik Tok famous are you being an

artist you know and there's not one wrong answer but depending on the answer that kind of changes you know our approach to it um and I think what jayon and I have we've gone through so many sessions to now I think we like we prefer to do sessions that we like believe in and that we support and that the artist gives as much as Jace because

a lot of times Jace will stay in the studio until sometimes 10: 11 at night and they start at 11: in the day in the morning Man 3 a and then like he and it's just incredible and it's when that drive is met with an artist with the same drive I feel like that's when it's like o this is like hard to find that but when we find that's when we really latch on to projects because

we're like yes like we see the same way uh but yeah that's a huge struggle is what Jay said about getting people to care as much about it as we do yeah and I think I think what's really interesting is sort of my studies into entrepreneurship and music you know full disclosure like my dream was music um and I just found out it wasn't for me like in the traditional sense that you

guys stream music uh you know we can break that I've broken that down many time on the podcast but where I see myself very stimulo with you guys is that the mountain climbing itself like is the goal and you know I personally I see myself as sort of a in between Chris and Jace like I'm also extremely obsessive but I don't

obsess over um the product as much I obsess over the learning if that makes sense and what I seen entrepreneurship and what you also talk with artistry is that I'm also very dumbfounded about like the founders and entrepreneurs trying to go into this without the drive that Jace is describing yeah because I

think besides talent which is obvious and it's you know it needs to be undeniable in most people that succeed it is just the resilience really again the work ethic and the dedication obsession that gets you somewhere and it seems so um obvious and platonic when you say it like when you live it you kind of get to understand what that actually means like for me personally like you know sometimes

obsessing about something so much that you know I would never get paid for and getting like three hours of sleep getting up with three kids in the morning and like feeling absolutely [ __ ] terrible in the morning like I can't get up of bed and then like 1 hour later I'm so ready to work like and not because I no one's ever going to pay me to do that but it's just the pure obsession of the craft yeah and the journey and I think people miss

that completely when they're out on their oice journey like how important that aspect is and honestly that's my biggest tell if someone's going to make it just like do they have that or not and obviously you can get it over time through some sort of revelation but most of the times it's sort of like that's just something you just need to look for if they're that the chances of them

succeeding is probably going to be 10xs higher because the rest just seems a titin bit random and I feel like to understand that X Factor about it like you had to have been an artist like so I'm so grateful for having tried the artist thing for so long because otherwise if I was just a suit and tie I would just be like I don't know like yeah it sounds good you know but it's like there's so much more to it than that um and then to add on to one thing

Jacob about like struggles and stuff one thing that we find uh quite common and I get it is like just like getting into the game completely I feel like you know just even getting into the to the to the room or the conversation of the room so difficult and it's not even like I'm not like snarky about it's

just like I get it because if you're an artist with success and you have your team and you guys do great together I do understand the hesitation of being like Oh yeah let's bring in a new writer or a new producer and so on one hand I do get it on the other hand it's frustrating because it's like what comes first a chicken or the egg everyone's like oh you need that one song changes everything it's like I agree uh so but

it seems like to get that one song it has to be like you kind of breaking an artist because it's really going to be hard to get in the room with the artist you want to get into when you don't have the resume and I feel like one frustration I experience a lot is people solely listening with their eyes and not their ears and I think that's like such a such a common thing now where it's like I

don't have to play the music and you're going to have your mind made up usually before I even play you anything based on what you're reading in front of you and that's just been like so frustrating but you got to keep going because sometimes we'll let it get us down then it's like right this is doing nothing to help us put the blinders on just keep going up ahead you know and something's going to break

yeah fair enough and you know I wouldn't be qualified to make that prediction but I'm going to make it anyways like there's a few people that have been following the last few years that I know is going to sort of make it make it and you guys have made it in your own sense but like there's no indicator as of right now that the pursuit you guys are on and the amount of time and energy put into is not going

to you know continue giving you opportunities and of course life is always mystery and you wouldn't know for sure but like the chances is just getting better for you guys but Jay when you say uh you're mountain climber like yeah is there also a goal like you know of course it's nice to have like rest on the mountain once in a while like what are you looking for

on a more like um materialistic or success uh way well Jacob I um I've I'm trying to find the best way to put this point I part of what I experienced in um maybe some of the conflict I've had with artists that things didn't

necessarily work out with was that and you could boil the conflict down too we had different perspectives of what art meant and my perspective is closer to the idea the art is something you live not something you make I believe that um I take a

lot of inspiration from painters and part of why I think they are so inspiring if you are someone who does something inside of entertainment that can be considered art part of what makes them so inspiring is that their entire lives were built around it like the artistry was not in the paintings it was in

everything their homes are art their clothing is art their hands are covered in this evidence of art the entire thing is all this great work of art and there was there was this movie made by Christoper owan a while ago called The Prestige and one of the points made in the prestige because

it's about magicians right and the art form of magic is that like the grace musician is someone who like life lives and serves like the magic it's beautiful it's a beautiful statement to make and um I like I believe that it's I think it ties so much into the conversations that are being had right now inside of music

culture about authenticity about like you know Finding ways to just put your real self out there how to have high quality content and then like relatable like lowquality content that makes you feel very accessible a lot of his people want authenticity and what I think if you go even deeper into that people want the art to be lived um I don't know if

they consciously want it I don't think there's a consumer out there saying man I can't wait to find an artist who lives it but if you look at like the and this is Prett really predominant in primarily female artists in the modern day but if you look at like Alana Del re and a billy ish and even to an extent aad Healey these are all examples of people

inside of Pop Culture who have made their life very integrated with their art and as a result they are full expressions of living so how does this connect to your question about what my big goal is what would even success mean to me I want my life to be this service of art

I've asked the question so many times how do you become a person in your 50s in 60s in your 70s that is still in the rooms that is still writing songs that is still a part of like relevant art because inside of film making there are a lot of Aging directors who are able to like use like their knowledge and their wisdom to continue to make Incredible

movies but that's not necessarily the case in music it's a rare case to have a Rick Rubin it's a rare case to have Johnny Cass releasing music in his 70s and it's like doing stuff and it's relevant it's important it matters it is rare and so you got asked a question like what does that and um I my

big why my big goal is I want to be a part of shaping what like gen z um perceives art to be what our great expression of art is what our story is and what our voice is I think that like it comes about by people like me taking responsibility in that seeing that there

is a responsibility to take in that like our story if not intentionally written will write itself and I don't want it to write itself because when it writes itself it's written by others it's written externally and I don't want that I think that is not that's not who we are that's not what this current Young Generation is and I do not

want the outside world to write who we are I want us to do that I believe art is always been the way that Humanity writes its story when we look at pieces of History we are remembered through works of art through paintings through pictures through I mean pictures to an extent but through like painting and through works of art is how we are remembered is how our story is told I

believe I can be a part of that I believe I have what it takes and therefore like I every day has to I have to wake up and be a part of that I think it's greater than just making songs it's greater than the billboard it's greater than pop music and it goes into like who are we and what is our story are we going to be are we going to be known as

The like ADHD generation that just gave into brain rot, or are we going to be way more than that? Because I view genzies and I view my culture and my people as way more than that. I see so much, I see so much meaning, so much compassion, I see so much empathy, I see

so much, um, I see so much purpose inside of the conversations of the youth of today, and I believe that they deserve like young artists who integrated into their lives, who completely live it, who completely embody it and give their everything and shape what the next face of art is. I want to be a part of that. That's my big

goal, that's my big why. And I think, I think on that one thing that I really try to make as one of my like main jobs is to whenever I'm able to kind of without sound like a martyr, like shield Jace from a lot of like the BS that goes on within the industry, like if I'm having a conversation with a lawyer or a label or manager, whatever, and it's like

not a great conversation, I'm probably not gonna go relay it to Jace because then that's how I think it's so easy to become cynical and become so, you know, kind of jaded and now completely whatever was fun in music is now gone because now you have to go in the room with this guy who you know the manager is trying to screw, you know what I mean? Like I just try to shield him

away from all of that and like my goal is to keep his innocence and just his love of music intact for as long as possible. Like I sometimes I'll treat myself and join the session, just sit there and like it's so fun to watch because he's in his producer she like jumping up and down and like almost every time, uh, when an artist has a first session with Jace they leave and they're

like dude I wish I could love music as much as this guy. And there's something so special about that because there are some artists I've worked with and they've said like they'll have a session with Jason and they'll be like oh wow I kind of forgot that music could be fun again, you know, because I guess when you get to a certain place whether success or you bored like it's not really exciting it's just a job. And I think

that's kind of when phoning in music happens and it's kind of like man that's so lazy, like come on. Um, so I think just keeping it where Jayce can just live in his creative world and not having to worry about all the BS that comes with it, you know. Oh yeah, Chris is instrumental in creating the world in which I'm even capable of going after something like that because without him

I would be, there would be too much reality inside of my working to create the invisible. And when we work with artists that don't have a team around them I have like so much respect for them because it's like damn I don't know how you can juggle all that, like that's impressive. Um, so yeah I think it's important to be surrounded with people that are able to shield you, not make you

like super ignorant and arrogant but just shield you from things you don't need to maybe know. I think it's so interesting to draw parallels to entrepreneurship again. I do see myself, whatever that means, like in between you two guys, but I consider myself still an aist, uh, not from music perspective but from a creator storytelling perspective, and my

biggest struggle has been because I've been in between and often been the initiator of like the business side of it, I need to be both Chris and Jace, like maybe closer to the artist you're referring to Chris, and that's just been incredibly difficult, like to navigate the space of knowing that I care more than everyone else and I'm gonna, I'm GNA stay

longer than everyone else and the emotional investment, uh, that takes, but then also being confronted with the [ __ ] on the other end which with that sort of my journey. Um, yeah, and what I love about you guys story is that often times the, uh, long-term success comes from the lack of

balance, uh, if that makes sense, like being allowed to be, you know, the crazy person in the room. Oh yeah. And I think, I think that this is where, uh, is so difficult because the reality of music is that you need to have both things to work, uh, and more so you actually need to business to work really well

because the general basis for having good finances is almost not there. Yeah, so that's the most difficult thing to navigate as a creator, uh, in this space is that you need both but you cannot be both and finding the person like ukis, um, is difficult. I just had an episode with Mike Holland which is the manager of

logic and also hearing how that was just instrumental in them having a good career of like having that extreme obsession but then also having that stable side. But he, Mike is still artistic from video creation, that's his thing, so this sort of bridge and I think that's really interesting, see your dynamic and I also believe

that's why and how it's going to work over time is that you need a bit of both but you also especially need the person who's executing to have that mind space to be that, um, but it's really difficult if not impossible to do. Yeah, it's really hard. We found and it is, it is also like when you work with artists and maybe the team is it as

aligned with their goals or you know what the artist wants it makes it tough for the artists, you know, and like because I see for I hear both sides obviously the artist side and them the team side and sometimes yeah it is hard to find that perfect balance of like the synergy is there, the goals are there, you know, everyone's working towards the same thing but as a game changer when you do find

it. So what is the next steps like in a concrete practical when it comes to sort of career progression, uh, if that even is the thing you talk about, like Chris, what is the talks you guys have for taking this further? So I think like a year ago or something me, Taylor, I said my partner, it's also my wife, I should have said that in the

beginning, my wife all senses, uh, and Jas we started this company and it kind of came about just being like okay we wish, um, we had this set up for us and I feel that's, do you listen to Founders podcast Jacob? Have you heard of that? H have you heard of The theast talk

on the Pod? Maybe not that specific one though. I love it anyways, he just talks about founders and stuff and there's always these through lines I see, uh, on everything. Like I feel like all the best founders started by just trying to solve a problem that has they hadn't been solved yet. And I think so for the future for us what we did a year ago we kind of started this

company that's like a label publisher, it's kind of like the new take on the music industry, right, like I feel like so many new companies now it's like a music tech startup where it's like hey we're partners, we're not going to do a typical label 360 deal, it's just a different structure. So we've been really tripping away at this and trying to figure how to make it make the most sense and be arst

centric, such a taboo word, be arst centric while also you know being able to be sustainable, uh, so we've been working on that a lot. So next year we have a release for first artist we've been working with for like a year and we're just trying to put everything in place cuz also being on this side of it I'll see so many times when a release happens like I'm always a little

surprised at sometimes the lack of preparation for it or like things aren't registered or there's no promo or this or that and it's like from the outside it's like oh well these are obvious reasons why maybe your song didn't do as good as it could have. So I've just been taking all these notes over the past few years and just trying to roll it into this company where like okay we want to do the things that we

think needs to be done um so that's been a really big undertaking uh and also while balancing Jace his own producing writing career at the same time but it's they're kind of working hand inand which is really interesting because now a lot of artist that was intentional to make it all work hand in hand it's all to make it all point in the same direction because now like when there's artists uh that really believe in but maybe the

budget isn't there or you know whatever it is if we really like it's like now we can be really involved as opposed to just facilitating sessions which is still fun, I still love it, but like it's fun to be part of something you believe in, I me as I think everyone would agree with. So that's really cool that we've been working on. Jay what about you? Yeah I mean the company is called light

work and, um, you know, after my whole spiel about art and wanting to make a difference or whatever, um, you know, the follow through to that is like how do we create the environment, the subculture necessary for there to be a

cultural shift. And I talked with Chris about this all the time about a year ago, it was the whole thing, the my most said word last year was probably culture, probably. And um, I believe that like you know in allowing artists the space of the opportunities to

like to be, um, able to make their life works of art, to be able to like dream bigger than they've ever dreamed, try the most ambitious thing, like the environment around them, as we've learned, learn together, like the environment around them has to facilitate that too. And so like you can't expect someone to

go out and make the best work of art if they are also not being looked after inside of this, he's like back in is that feels, you do need people to have your back in that sense. And so I believe what light work is, what it will continue to be and the reason why it was made was to give like artists like, uh, I don't

want to use the word home, it's overused, it's abused, but like to give artists a like that place, that environment to make their most ambitious thing and to not have it tweaked to be like, um, uh, the most commercially friendly

thing. Like I really, I really want to see what the world looks like when the people who create are sharing their unadulterated creation, are sharing their untapped with creation, their most obscure views on the world. That's that has to happen, that has to

happen. We do not have a full understanding about who we are as people in the modern day if even our like works of art are tampered with. And so I believe that's a very important part of like a company like this of being able to like let people have this outlet because

I know there are a lot of people inside of music, uh, in massive places and even in tiny places that like know what their calling is, know what their greater purpose is and are experiencing like these massive coration, like just saying no to these massive to these purposes of theirs. And I, uh, I think that I want to

be a part of the people, I want to provide a complete one-stop shop channel to just say yes to the most obscure, obscene ideas and like through that for example as a little teaser, like I've been working with this one artist named Tom sth, we made this song called American turbo which is the most out

there song ever, it is the most said yes to every crazy idea song I think ever, and as a result it created this massive statement about the modern like American political sphere as someone who like as this artist Tom is someone who like is on tour 100% of his year, like in a van

and in cities all over the country meeting people, talking to people, understanding what America even is and that's how it was made. And there's no like other vehicle I believe inside of music right now that has the same kind of encouragement and excitement towards people to do that. I think we had to make it and that's the, that's the

current thing that I believe will be taking up the majority of our time moving forward because I want it to be the thing that takes up the majority of a time moving forward and I have a project that's going to be released through it, we have a country artist, we have an incredible British pop star, we have a lot of people coming into this already. Chris, uh, what I found has been interesting is when we're talking

to artists about this model I feel like, uh, the old record label model is still romanticized to an extent and, um, I found that so interesting because when I sit down and break down like what a typical, you know, major label deal looks like it's usually super un advv for the

artists, um, in regards to you know them owning their copyrights and them owning publishing stuff and so when we present our mod business model to people sometimes like they're taking a just because it's not like a typical label deal. So it's going to be interesting seeing how, I feel the music industry is shifting a lot more towards being artist like artist focused

deals, um, because the Megan the stallion one they gave her own label I think right and that she' sign people underneath it was it was some big deal and like I think now labels are realizing right so these artists want to have, you know, keep something and they want to stop getting screwed. So we're trying to get to that, um,

landscape what I think is but I most interesting reflections upon this talk and this is gonna be my last com is sort of what you're touching about now, um, but I'll sort of say it in my own ways. There's like three big learnings I've had the last year when it comes to arry entrepreneurship. One is that there needs

To be either a full story or person or people who are able to tell the full story over time like that, you know, I'm just going to care about the music, not the visuals, you know, you know, as you refer to gen, it doesn't exist in what it needs to have, and the other thing is

That the lack of a better word, you need the X, um, and it's just undeniable, and you know, in my career I've tried to deny that many times, and in all honesty I've just lost all my money and time and energy on trying to pursue that, it's just the reality of it, but the third thing is that X Factor can either be there from the start but can also through Partnerships

Take like in a common Vision, so I think that's my biggest learning, the intricate thing is like yes, it needs to be there and it needs to be the full story, but it can either take place in one person, and you know, in my opinion, you a person where at least all the creative sides, it takes place in one person, but in many cases including my

Own, I only function well in a setting where that can unleash who I want to become and who what story to tell, and I think maybe that's also what you guys are referring to, is like for those people that has the thing but needs that the full attention of catering, that is where it needs to home, and I think a lot

Of Founders, a lot of musicians miss that, those perspectives, um, and that's sort of what I take from this poll, Jason and Chris, thank you so much, and I'm going to follow your careers for years to come, and I've been very blessed to sort of follow on the sidelines, and I'm starting to see now, you know, I'm 31 and I've been a part of way too many creative careers because you know, I'm

Also obsessive, often times to my own loss, and I've now seen uh over the many years who are starting to make it, who have made it, and who definitely didn't make it, and there's common denominators, U basically to the thought I said, and just keep doing what you guys do, like I think it's really rare we years each space to full s so

Thank you for that, and I look more, um, also real quick, I also want to say thank you to you Jacob up, uh, I never thought I'd be on the business side of Music at all, and it was just that one session meeting you, getting the beer, just kind of being like, Oh, I can still be in music without like creating music, that definitely shifted me, and also like

You suggesting to manage Jace, like I feel like I don't know if you saw something me that I didn't see myself, or it was just like I don't know, try it, but either way it really, it really like uh was a pivotal moment in my career, so I appreciate you uh giving me the time and attention to kind of believe in me when I didn't really know this something I would do, so big thank you to you, oh

Second that, huge thank you Jacob re, well I'll see you in the podcast I years and then guess happening, hell yeah, hey guys we cler, all right, see you man, thank you