How To Talk To The Music Industry

There is this big fear about technology coming from only one place in the world. Because I add some kind of questions that I hear is like, okay, where's the technology from? We don't want the technology that is conquering the world. We want technology from our country or Europe. And this is something that for me, potentially, is a very big message that the tech Europe doesn't use enough, saying this is tech that is developed here and is here to help European.culture. Welcome, welcome everybody that watches and thank you very much again for having me. And thank you Music Tech Europe Academy for inviting me to be part of the conversation with you. Because Music Tech Europe Academy right now has applications open for the accelerator

program. It's going on for around two weeks more. So hopefully you'll apply. I think there's gonna be amazing things to hear. I know most of the people behind it and I can honestly say it is amazing people, very qualified and very beautiful human beings. But today we're going to talk about something interesting, which is actually almost the opposite of almost what I always talk about because I take it from, know, I wouldn't call myself a capitalist in any degree, but I do believe that having a very strong business proposition as a company trying to do innovation is really important.

And a lot of times companies struggle with this. But on the flip side, what you work with Georgia is communication towards the cultural industry, which I know that companies also struggle with. So we're sort of sitting at two opposite ends of the same thing, which is communication towards different stakeholders. Before we go into that, because I think that's a really interesting talk and I'm looking so much forward to this, help me understand who are you and what do you do? I'm Giorgia Taglietti. I was born in Italy, but I live in Barcelona. I worked in a big music festival for more than 25 years.

I used to be the head of communication, but I did several roles in between because I started with Sonar, which is the electronic music festival, se, most important electronic music festival in Barcelona. And I worked with them since the 96, which was the second year until 2021. I stopped working with them. I left myself because I wanted to create my own company. I'm 58 right now. So it's like... When I left, was really because I had already some freelance tasks.

I worked with a very good friend of mine and DJ called Laurent Garnier, not in the booking, but in everything else since almost nine years now. And I was involved in a women in music platform that it's Shisato, that it's 10 years this year. And I started teaching. While I was at Sonar, of course then on behalf of the festival, but now on behalf of myself and my experience, I love teaching, I love mentoring. So this is something that I continue to do proactively right when I finish my job at Sonar in 2021. And this year I launched and created my

company, which is the ICNAC, the International Consulting Network for the Arts and Culture. consult strategist as a strategist, as a consultant, as a mentor. And I also do everything that is possibly as a question, how do I survive the music and the cultural ecosystem and to make it an industry. Well, you said in the beginning, word that I would never use, which is stakeholders. I love that because it comes from your word. I love the fact that I kind of a very organic approach of what happens in, around my experience. And I try to blend the new generation with the next generation. Let's say new generation,

next generation, which we don't know what it will be like. The new generation, of course, is in between 2018 to 28, which is starting to work, ending the school. And some of them, Most of them I know because I'm very attracted to very young people and I meet a of young people every week. They're also entrepreneur oriented. So let's say that the entrepreneurship mind right now starts around 25, 23. I mean, I have a very big friend that is a big entrepreneur.

in Iwer and he's now 25 and I meet with him to learn from him and he probably learns from me also. I would say that my company right now or myself, I work for the Association for Electronic Music as Culture and Campaign. I work for Reset, which is the European network co-founded by Arti Fartian-Leon and Creative Europe, which wants to highlight and give offer visibility and a network is the youngest network funded by Creative Europe for independent individuals and independent structures all over Europe. And very much, let's say, as you see, very much leaning towards the associative and collective structures. I really never

really directly work with brands or commercial brands. It's not my wish. And I actually feel very well connected to this ecosystem, which is based on independency and try to survive out of the big ball of concentration of power. So I think I'm very comfortable where I am. And actually I'm the music tech Europe Academy mentor since I think the first year. And thanks to Anna Zoh.

And I'm repeating this year and I'm kind of really looking forward to meet the new startups. And I really appeal you to, to you know, participate to the call because it's a fantastic structure and a fantastic platform to get help and be mentored by the best in, in the industry and above all the best of the culture industry. Amazing. I'll deep dive into the topic because I think this is going to be an interesting episode because I have a lot of questions to you. Because as I said before, I know music quite well. I have been in the music industry for quite a while, but I've always felt a disconnect to the culture industry at large for many different reasons. One is that it is...

An industry that is, how to explain it, speaks its own language that I've sometimes had hard time dissecting. I'm a very practical person, even though I'm creative and I love to create things, the way that I communicate is very practical. It's very direct. I have a very hard time navigating unspoken things, if that makes sense. So for me, a yes is a yes and a no is a no, and everyone who knows me knows that's true. And I'm not saying that's the cultural industry, but there's a lot of cultural nuances.

I believe, and I might be wrong, that's how I perceive it. Where for me, for example, helping startups communicate towards investors is quite easy because the general standards of communicating your worth follows a rule book. It follows best practices, do's and don'ts. There's some of other things that needs to be harder earned in knowledge, but a lot of them are frameworks that are relatively agreed upon. What I experienced, and again, I might be wrong, is when you venture into the cultural side, The rule book is less clear, but still very much there. Does this make any sense what I'm saying? That's at least how I've perceived it. Well, let's start it from here. When I created my company, I created this huge long name to

make sure that I was taken seriously. Okay. You know, though I know I was taken seriously, but... specifically in some words of institutions and economic words, when you call yourself Giorgio Taglietti and come from culture, you don't know who I am, you don't care. But if you have this word that encapsulates some kind of potential, very kind of structure, potential, tangible word, which came in my mind one day as a branded exercise I did with my mind and myself, like brainstorming with myself.

Jakob Wredstrøm (09:26.538) And it's the perfect example of what I try to connect in between words that structure in a very like the iknaq. When I sit down with somebody like you or with somebody as an institution and I spill it out, they totally understand what it's for in a serious babies. And they do see me, they see something bigger than me, which is important, which makes culture relevantly more...

intangible and that's what I said when I started briefing a friend of mine to say what I am is making the intangible tangible which connects with your idea though it's not really connect about the yes and no I'm not really marrying this yes and no situation. maybe not. But I'm marrying more the fact of okay what does it mean in concrete messages and actions which means that You know, one day I was invited in Hamburg to talk about the future of music business.

And then I said to them, I really not the person to talk about the future of music business. I am the person who wants to talk about the future of music. And then I explained the complexity. When you talk music business and you forget the music is something natural that comes out of everyone, that then becomes an asset. for the music industry and then it becomes something that you make your life with and then you start entering a world in which there is a legal, economical system that is pretty much the same as any economical system. But in this process, you don't want to lose the emotions and the zeitgeist at the moment, the culture is affiliated to. As much as money, well, right now you can also discuss to me that money is also

very much linked to the zeitgeist because of the macro social situations. But in the micro situation, like you said, you have a very structured panorama that doesn't really change because something has changed. In terms of culture, you need to listen to culture and culture is created every day. And in a way, it's very much alive. Changes in cities, in countries, it changes in languages, in changes in everywhere what happens. And then it becomes a universal language. And that's why we need to decode something, some techniques. And actually I'm like you. I try to grab and synthetically make it practical to understand what's your ear in the ground, what you shouldn't forget. And that's something that happens with startups.

They have an ear in the ground that is not the same as the cultural ear in the ground. And that's why, for instance, I read in the morning and I read by night and I read the financial times and I read the New York Times, but I also read all the specific cultural assets because I need to know what is going on and the sum of one with the other makes the reality of the cultural business. So what is the things, what is this example is where startups or companies does not communicate well.

to the culture industries. Do you have repeated misunderstandings or miscommunications or things that are very evident that people do not do correctly? Yes. Basically, it happens above all when the entrepreneurs don't come from the cultural environment. Thinking that culture is easier, lovelier, appealing, which is much more complex than that.

and they use terminology or they actually have ideas and products that because they come from a different background, they've done a bit of benchmarking. They might haven't got that deep. think that it's amazing for the market. But for instance, in Europe, if we specifically think Europe, because it's anyway the music tech Europe economy, and it's my specialty anyway, you have very different situations. But then again, it's amazing how the ignorance towards, for instance, the music business and the disconnection in between one the other is so profound. It's like,

want, know, most of the startup we could see the easiest way to go is like, I created something about ticketing or I created something about, you know, that's the most tech. applications that you get, know, a back-end or... But they don't understand that they really need to deep dive into the people that are actually working in the field in what I call the, you know, the backdrop of culture, in which there are specific needs that needs to be applied. So, you know, but the... What also happens is most of the...

tech entrepreneur don't have easy access to the cultural environments. Like if somebody wants to test, something wants to see how it goes, non-music promoters will allow somebody that don't know, checking their own thing, explaining in deep what they use. There's still very much secrecy about who is who and what they do. So what I also represent and I advocate for is this connection about music professionals and tech professionals in which there is a blending of their own needs and a, you know, and a some kind of pro level B2B level without deep diving in what it's beyond secrecy. I also think that there's a lot of secrecy about tech and music,

for instance, there's a lot of kind of shadowy relationships, especially now with the AI evolution. There's a lot of legal issues that should be implemented. there's a lot that has to, the big connection is the creator's economy. And the creator's economy and culture, of course, should be prevented and presented. it's nurtured, but it's very fragmented too. And tech is, in a way, has been helping, but also assaulting the creator's economy in a...

very big way like, know, that music is very much used for anything that is not cultural anymore, like in politics and, you know, is used like a backdrop while they should be at the core because that's why they're using it. So I think that actually culture is very appealing for a tech entrepreneur because it's always be, it will always be part in one way or the other of its final results.

You know, especially if they want to get really serious about applying tech. What is tech for? Is it for helping culture? Let's say. Is it for creating something completely new that helps, that is middle ground? I do an example is health. There is a big, big trend into sounds and the help of sounds as medicine in health and tech. is the in-between connections in between that. That's a very good example of music and tech that is applying on a third ecosystem, which is health. And there's still big discoveries ahead in that level. I have a question,

and it might be a bit blunt. I just want your opinion, Zane. Of course. Through navigating my masters in music, I've also traveled a lot internationally in the speaker conferences. I have always felt quite misplaced at these conferences for the simple and maybe misunderstood reason that I believe that there often is a self-imposed self-importance from music industry towards outsiders. That there's this sort of very high level barrier of entry where there is this, well, in my opinion, disproportionate self-worth placed upon the internal structures of the music industry. And for me, that creates...

a really hard environment for entrepreneurs to just have a conversation that makes sense for them. Is this something that is true? Is it mine and others' misinterpretation of signals? Because this is what I hear constantly and I very much agree upon it myself. I mean, think about the latest association created with the music tech in Europe and beyond. And I was also part of the music tech Europe association. There is a brand new UK music tech. I think actually that was perceived and seen such as, and I think why these associations are creating is to blend in these conversations on the table. So I would.

think we are moving into a direction of, I would think that the music industry per se is very, as the culture industry, as I said before, is very much scared about the tentacles of the tech industry. So what you perceive is defensive, I would say, and not aggressive. I wouldn't understand, I mean, I know the music industry, Music industry is right now, unfortunately, still very concentrated as anything is. mean, it's not only the music industry. it's like, please don't put the blame on anybody. It's the way it's gone. It's polarizing concentration and everything. But there is a defensive

position in anything cultural. At the end of this defensive position, there should be the creator, which is actually the kickstart of everything music is the musician. the producer, the artist. And as much as the art, as much as the cinema, you will see that all these cultural ecosystems that have a defensive or non-defensive, like let's say NFT scandal, that's around the art ecosystem. That's a very good example of embracing a technology being from the non-technological technological word and misuse it for economical profit. It's very interesting how you perceive the

defensive aggressive side of it. One thing I know because I'm pro technology a hundred percent is that technology is a very big weapon, but at the same time is a tool. So I perceive tech as tool. I perceive human steel as the creators of those tools, not technology per se. I don't see AI as an independent artificial intelligence yet. So because we're not there yet, I still go back to humans. And I do think that ignorance, misconception, and some big tech failures, let's say startup failures, financial failures, NFT failures.

have created a lot of pain, fear and misconception. And I think that for instance, it helps with the NFT ticketing. There's a lot of potential NFT ticketing startups out there and the NFT words already scares people out like the blockchain and all this terminology that for me, I still very valuable. but have been attached to so many big public scandals that they need to reconstruct their own wording and their own communication and their own messaging.

So that's also what I do a lot is like recreating myself and thinking what is good in technology that should be promoted in between the cultural ecosystem saying, hey, this is not bad. So the failure of multiple cultural tech ecosystem is also being very scary. And I think it's very important that we try to find a middle game in which we really find tech that is super useful for the real necessity of the music industry. Instead of bringing on the tech without talking to the real actors, which doesn't only include the companies, the booking, the managers, the publishers, it includes the creators. So it is definitely a dilemma and it's one that I myself is trying to

figure out how to communicate to both sides. I have throughout my career been quite lucky. I've always had people who believed in me before they actually should have believed in me, which means that I've never really had any closed doors. And whenever I travel nationally, internationally, I get to talk to the people I get to talk with. But for me, that's kind of weird because I never felt about the club. So I can feel like I can see from both sides here. I can see that there's startups that I work with on a day-to-day basis that wants to communicate worth towards certain, I'm not going to say stakeholders, industry professionals or companies within the music space, the culture space. there's a really difficult thing is because it's two ways.

I see one that they don't know how to communicate their worth to them. And the second is, and this is where I believe this most striking, there's very few people who do the homework. on what technology can do to their business. And for me, that is two very difficult things to work with because even if we were to work with the most perfect communication from the startups, still going to meet the lack of homework. So they basically need to do two things. They need to speak their language and they need to not educate them, but basically motivate them to learn more about what you're doing.

How would you go about that because that is difficult? There's a lot of lost in translation in this conversation, let's say, because I think that one thing I love when the whole NFT and crypto and blockchain started like literally publicly, not like behind the scenes, which we know, but publicly, let's say is I used to say to my students explaining meta and NFT like literally three years ago that Ethereum, instance, the Ethereum platform, the foundation, has an amazing ABC dictionary of anything that is related to Metacoin, Bitcoin, blockchain, NFTs, whatever, in a very, very good way. So they

did a lot of, let's say, education about the rules. And back then, I mean, imagine. So when everybody was asking, okay, how do I study or understand the beginning, know, like Meta for Dummies, NFT for Dummies, I started saying, you know, Ethereum does this work. And I loved it. And I still think that is there. But this is actually part of my main job every day, is like to kind of correlate the language, especially when I mentor in the Music Tech Europe Academy. There's a lot of work about that.

is how to reach out these people, how to talk to these people, how to enter the right gates, and how to review even websites, pitches, documents, emails that are not aiming for finances, that are aiming to make them understand the value of the proposition. I think actually that music right now is hungry for technology for many reasons, but is hungry for technology that is tailor-made always has. A hungry for technology that is tailor-made more than just apply to everyone. As you said, you said something that's sticking my mind, which is you come from Denmark,

if I'm not wrong. I love by the way, but it's a very lucky situation as you know. I come, I live in Spain. I am Italian and I work a lot with the Southern Mediterranean world. And I wouldn't say it's the same. You don't have the same doors open, the same gate open, the same correlation in between money and culture at all. And, and you know, I'm entering in Italy. So let's say that I think MusikTekuropa Academy is absolutely groundbreaking. I love to work with them that have very Europe focus. And that's why what I think as a person, and that's why my name is so vague,

is because I feel deeply European. And my wish, because I have a huge network, is to connect any kind of region in Europe to other region, to learn, to apprehend, to kind of unify. these kind of languages and it happens, you know, when you talk about it or you're part of this type of academies, you find yourself with a multi-language, multi-national spirit. Though, if you go to the UK, let's say if you go to the US, I don't even want to think about it, but if you move towards territory when the music business is a huge chunk of their economy, the structure might be a bit different.

is much more close, it's much more B2B oriented, and it's very aware of the economical and political factor of it, which in this case makes them a different industry in the sense that they are the real industry evolved in a way that, and this can be somehow contradictory for some people that are listening to it, but if you think about there was a panel or some survey that just result on where all these big festival in Europe buy their artists from. And I think the first five agencies up there, they're all from the UK,

Which means, you know, if the music business is based on life, you will see that most of the business is done with the negotiation with the UK. So I think there's a regional issue there. There's also this sense of funding. Know, most of the people, startups that you want to start here or in the South, I don't know yours, because I'm not specific on Denmark or Scandinavia in general, but they would need at some point some institutional support from an institution, the cultural institution. I mean, they're there for this also, you know, to foster.

The bridge in between tech and culture. And you know, there are plans in the European Commission about these needs. So to be clear, there's a vocabulary that splits into three, which I always consider is your pitch goes to an institution, it goes to a founder or financial support, and it goes to cultural players. So let's say that a pitch should be taking account of all these three languages and then have modulating into the language of each show. So that's the game at the end. But sensitivity, for instance, I do a very clear example, which I, as I said in the beginning, I've been part of G set so

For a long time. And once I jumped into the music tech ecosystem, we are talking 12 to 18 % of women and the rest is men. Okay? It's an horrific figure. Maybe some women around here have most updated one, but I don't think we have never overcome the 20%. When you know these figures, you understand that once you do a pitch or a website or something towards B2B or B2C or B2 organization or B2 institutions, you need to think about equality, even though the tech world is unequal. So I find myself, man into man, pitching a website and there's only photos of men. And you're like, red flag,

Cultural red flag, social red flag. But they don't see it because maybe they don't need to see it in that little ecosystem where we wish they should need to see it, but it's not yet. I'm not here to revolutionize the tech system. This is reality. But they need to linger into a completely different language, especially if they think in institutions and especially if they're thinking cultural ecosystem, which is not equal yet, but has been doing that path for a long time. So the modulation of the language, also needs, I always said to them, inclusivity, organic, spontaneous.

Messages, because if you go there, like saying, this is the money, this is the business plan, and this is where I'm going, this is how I help you. If you only help on the economic side, you need to be very aware of this protective system that I mentioned before. If you are going there to help the consumer side, which happens a lot, that you will reach more audiences, more public and stuff, you will never forget. That we as cultural actors, know very well the issues with the public. So be aware about what kind of consumer studies you have, be aware about what kind of public conception you have, because this happens to be very, very dependent on zeitgeist, dependent of a macro system that

On the cultural side is very much studied right now. It's so interesting and I... While you're talking, I also get a tiny bit frustrated, not on you, but the reason why I get frustrated is, this is how I see it, as neutral as I can. The music industry financially is not viable in most regions, and it's really only viable when you scale it to pretty insane amount of scaling. Terrible amounts. And there are...

Players that with their own motivations, whatever that is, that wants to make something out of what is, and most of the times bring value. They might not understand completely sort of what they navigate in. But why is there's this high level of entry? Why does the music industry insist of having this protected role of communication? Basically what I'm saying, besides the efforts like Music Tech Europe Academy, why is there not more awareness about them meeting, like the music industry meeting the innovators? Why does it need to be on the music industry premises so often? Well, think that

Talking from my FM point of view, Association for Electronic Music, music is a big, big territory. For me, for instance, it's very natural to talk about electronic music, is fortunate and unfortunately the most tech-driven music. So I feel very comfortable since forever to be close to tech and very friendly with tech. I see a computer and I smile, this is my friend. But what I think it's the word innovators.

Is a wrong word, okay? Because novelty is in music and novelty in general. And right now, we all hope that we'll be more innovators in the real sense of the scheme, is that the needs of the music industry are scattered in many ways, than many of them, and in technology more than ever. So it's like we, I guess, music should be listened to before listen to people that come out on the music. That's what I said to you before. It's like, and I agree that music should be more vocal about what is needed out there. What also happens because of this concentration of power,

As you know, is that they want to own their own technology. What happens is that most of the solutions that after a while they're perceived as used or useful will be bought like any startup wishes to. What you said, and I'm sure it's true because I've seen it, is where is the middle ground? Where can the tech help any level of music industry be powerful, be powered by, and also adjust injustice, you know, because of this lack of

Unification and distribution, unification in reading data, in understanding the markets in one way. There's many ways to understand the market and many ways to understand the needs. And I also think that unfortunately because of that, lack of interest from the young generation of being heard, there is a kind of revolutionary sentiment in the young generation knowing that there's very difficult career in music business, as you said, very accurately. And so they feel that it's useless to say something, they feel they're not relevant. Some of them are constituting collective, some of them want to escape concentration.

The impact of these movements is still very, very marginal in the strange works of music, but in the platform I work with and the people I work with is still very, very present for me. Half of my life I've spoken to independent music players and I see their struggle. And some of them also understand technology as a dominant.

And why so you said it in the beginning, the economical discourse of let's say emerging to middle ground music business structures are not aimed to capitalistic maximum concentration. Lucky some lots of them I know and I love them because of that. So when they want to aim bigger, there is a threshold. And this threshold certainly was not only built by the music business, was certainly built by the streaming performances, by the streaming scenarios, by the fact that the value of music has changed so much. And then after

COVID even more. So all these artists, all these artists that are growing want to... be perceived and build their own labels and build their own structures and build their own industry and businesses, they know they have to scale up and up and up and up. They might find technology helpful, but too expensive for them in the beginning, for instance. Know, so there's a lot of lack of test, technique, experiment going on, which I would think it's amazing.

Actually, I remember the AI, the AI scenario at Sona. Did the AI so many times, like long time ago with Holly Haddon, experiment with voices and new. And now it's the AI boom, but experimentation of tech and creators and music business is the core of the birth or a really good product. There's no time for experimentation. There's no time for that. They need to be profit making almost immediately. They need to jump into a level on another level almost immediately. A scale of that with the music experimentation and technology to match the real thing before launch, sometimes is very much needed. Most of the time I would

Think is very much needed. And there's no time for that. There's no time to play. I think that's so interesting because this builds on a theory or supports a theory I'm building up. So in connection with my research I'm doing in this field, basically I'm soon finishing up my first book on music industry entrepreneurship. We have a lot of interesting observations. One of the things that Vick and Nomen spoke about the first time I heard it is the analogy of the music industry as a very slow moving boat.

Jakob Wredstrøm (40:36.782) a big, ferry or hangover, and start with being these small, agile speedboats. And what you need to realize is that the ship might be turning and it wants to turn, but it's just going to take a tiny bit of time. It's a big, big ship. her... What I read from this, you might not agree, but what I read from this is I believe that startups in the music industry that has so-called disruptive technology, also hate the word, but something that's going to do... let's call it a big change in how things works, need to equip themselves with a tiny bit more patience than would in other industries, maybe to support what you're saying, but also I believe that the rate of innovation is slower in the music industry because the very

Nature of music is innovative, it's experimental, it takes the time to make sure that there's actual value. This is how I read it at least. And the way that, for example, we build, we own 11 startups. One of our startups, which is sort of a fundamental tech company, it's been existing for two and a half years. We won startup of the year for one and a half years ago, and I'm really patient with it. It's fine. We still build the technology. We have customers, but I'm in no hurry because I know what we're building is not ready for the market yet. So I'm just proving points, making connections. that. Yeah, because I can't go out and push this right now, but I know that when I start pushing and the doors are opening, I'll be first, but only if I equip myself with patience. I need to reap the market.

And this is a very different way of running a startup. But again, reading the environment, I believe that is what is necessary. For me, reading an environment is essential and reading the young and next generation in their needs, music and technology wise, it's essential even more. But as it happens with fashion and with most of the technology driven, it's like immersive scenarios. I love immersive venues and immersive everything, but who can really do immersive is people with money.

The issue here is economical. I really want to test new technology. There's many artists, especially in electronic music, that are super knowledgeable in the tech scenario and they can understand a lot of tech resources. But the need to kind of play around it and see if it's really answering the call that creators have and... And not only creators, but the rest of the music business. But I always put creators at the heart because they are the most frustrated one, because they do less and less money to what originally is theirs. So it's a question of ownership. So as much as you have the ownership of a tech solution,

You have an ownership of the creation of yourself. And when do you want to sell it, dilute it? a scale it or whatever, some people don't understand that this is the only assets they have to make money. It's not something that you can like lose just because streaming that creator, the creatorship, this ownership makes you 0.0.5. Meanwhile, it's you spend it three years to create anything that is valuable enough and worth enough.

And good enough to believe in yourself, to make money. That's why I also say always, I never wanted to be an artist and people that actually criticize artists in a way or the other, I'm always very adamant to protect them, whoever they are, whatever, unless they have a personal behavior attitude, that's a different story. But I think that being an artist, it's a very huge leap of faith into yourself and it's... even bigger than creating a startup. Like we said before, it's based on intangible formulas, though you can create formulas of songs. But it's like we're talking about the real artists here, people that actually are geniuses and they are spending time with themselves. They give themselves to

People, many people, few people. Anyway, they're not themselves. They're not theirs anymore. Is part of how technology can help them personalize their needs in many ways. I've seen a managenarial program to help you manage yourself. Of course, managers would be shocked by that, or maybe not. It's like people need managers, people need to, for instance, the educational side of, like we said, Music Tech Europe Academy, the academy side of tech towards culture is...

Super needed. You don't become a professional musician without learning how to become one. Meaning you can be a musician, but how you become a professional one needs a lot to understand and a lot to learn, at least in the basics. And I think, you know, there's a lot to amplify that virtually this link between education and music business. I teach in two of them. but I know there should be more Berkleys and more schools that actually allow you to understand how the music business work in touch with the big players, but also the mid players, know, organizing internships, explaining what tech is doing for culture. You know,

We are back to ignorance versus knowledge and versus acknowledgements of the gaps that we have. in this sense. And, you know, that's why I think that the associations which I'm part of proudly, I think one of the jobs we can assume mostly is to educate other members and beyond. But, know, to really bring to earth issues and make sure that we hear what they say. As you said before, Zeitgeist is possibly my favorite word I drop every five seconds because it's like everything that is happening right now in the world, macro or even regional or local, you need to have an ear to

The ground to see if this startup is fitted for the purpose, if the market is ready and also for the artist if the market is ready. We talk in markets at the end and that's I agree. Jakob Wredstrøm (47:30.412) because that's how a musician become professional. There's a market out there and how you sustain that market. And I think there's still a very unbalanced market out there. It's a completely different game from one country to another. There's a prevalent market and you need, I think, lingering there. I also would like to underline the fact that most of European technology People feel that everyday technology is owned by the Americans. So you also have this scare,

Like, what kind of technology is it? Where it does come from? Will you be bought by somebody bigger? Will I have than, you know, that there is this big fear about technology coming from only one place in the world. And this is something that also is present and is. depending on what technology you're building and which tricks and bicks you're using, where they're from, you know. So I think it's very interesting because I add some kind of questions that I hear is, okay, where's the technology from? We don't want the technology that is conquering the world. We want technology from our country or Europe or whatever. And this is something that for me potentially is a very big message.

That the tech Europe doesn't use enough, saying this is tech that is developed here and is here to help European culture. Before we hit the episode, I have a few observations that I'd like to share and also like to ask what you think about those observations. So when I hear you talk and the people I've known for 10 years talk about music, the way that I sort of separate my understanding of music and the business and industry is really in three categories. I'll try to explain my points. So you have the bass layer, which is music.

Which is performing music, creating music, it's sort of being in physical or emotional contact directly with, I'm gonna use the word product, I'm probably not allowed, but that's how I see it. Then you have a layer above that, which is directly working with the creators of making their careers make music, which I call music business. It's direct touch point right behind the artist. And then you have the music industry, which is the infrastructure that supports the business and the music. This is how I categorize it. There's a bit of disagreement on it, but that's clearly how I see it. When I look at startups, companies, and we talk about having some sort of industry market fit sense and also being able to communicate the worth,

We're basically talking about a few different things. I believe that, and I might be very wrong here, but these are what I try to be neutral assumptions. If you are in the music category, so not the music business and music industry, it's not very helpful either if you want to do business because basically you're speaking the words of the creators, which is a separate communication form, I believe. When you speak music business, which is basically suing a bit out from the creation, trying to make money from it, you might have a really good communication towards what I call B2C propositions or direct to artists or that kind of thing.

But it might not be helpful for basic technologies, just that kind of stuff, the B2B layer. And if you're from the industry, you might have a clear B2B proposition, but struggle with the, what I call B2C or the direct to artist sort of propositions or the musician. So basically what I'm trying to say is there's even three layers of communication here. that's how I see it. It's a cascading communication because Nothing exists without the three together at all. So all the layers of communication should be actually, which is my dream. My dream, of course, as you can imagine. Well, they do it, they don't. Depending on who you're talking to. Again,

I live in a different world sometimes where this communication is fluid. Jakob Wredstrøm (52:04.544) And who you aim to, it's a different story. And I actually see examples of music tech realities that are the three of them, but creators might be unaware, but they don't need necessarily to know, but then it was created as a music business and becomes essential to the music industry. So the real game here is You know, one person that sums up this is a manager. If you talk to a manager,

Like a good manager, any level, should know the players of the music industry, the music business, and the creators. Because as a manager, you're looking for constantly be updated on creators as a benchmark or potential collaborators. or new clients, you are in the heart of the music business because that's your job. And you are totally part of the music industry because it's how you get any money-making relevant option for your artist, which includes booking, sync, advertising, anything. So, and actually,

Everything has publishing rights, which for instance, publishing rights for me would be in the middle like music business and legal and then music industry, it will end up being the whole process of actually industrialization and making money out of it, which will include, you know, the sync, the advertising, the bookings, every single category that includes getting money out of it. You know what I mean? And that's why I think a manager is the point of connection, what happens, which happens, and more in South of Europe, you don't have that many managers. And you have many creators without a manager, which doesn't have the knowledge enough of the music business to jump into that kind of negotiation. Sure. So

If you have an interesting technology proposal, I would suggest to go to the manager of the artist. Jakob Wredstrøm (54:34.554) or a game player that will go back to the manager of the artist if you want to use any kind of creation from the creator. But if you really want to impact the creator at the last minute. But some person that has the key to both for me is a manager. And I actually love good managers. At Sonar, I was in charge of the clearances of all the stream scenarios and audiovisual.

Which shows you that aside of distributors or publishers, the end of it all when it comes to the manager is the total key for everything making money or making opportunities. Makes more sense. I think that at some point you can see labels, Hohner, if you have some kind of technology innovation for a label, you go to label, if you have a technology innovation for ticketing, you go to a festival promoter. You know, that's of course very specific. But if you want to evolve some kind of technological innovation that is really affecting the music ecosystem in which you want to implode the three of them, which is something that I actually asked

All of them before is like, where are you going? For who is this meant to be? or for what even. And then the thing is that if you are including this, you never should though forget the creator because music, there's no music without creators again. So it's like, you need to make sure that interlocution doesn't exclude the end of the wheel, which is actually the beginning of the wheel. And that's why everybody says the manager is a 360 degrees, you know, the typical right now 360 degrees business, which means that you're taking care of the 360 degrees by taking care of the creator, its creative process,

Managing how it becomes a business and managing how you introduce him to the industry and managing how it becomes more and more relevant to the industry and gets into this wheel. And protecting this from abuse, I hope so at least. Legal and economical. I have a difficult question to end the episode with. Good. I love difficult questions, but I don't want to name names. No, no. You don't need to mention any names. And I would like to have you answer if possible from a statistical, most likely context. And the question is...

If I can. Because of the complexity of speaking the language of music if you're not from the music industry, is it viable for a founded team not to have a music industry person on their team? I don't think it's needed to be on their team. think that's consulting consultants like me and many people that are bridging in between tech. Actually, you know, the most interesting thing for me is to approximate the music tech association saying, okay, I want to discuss with the music agents, not with you guys, the tech guys. And this is their, one of the ultimate goals they have is to really listen to the ground.

So I would say that you don't need to have a music person inside, though I consider this pretty great, because then you have it on an everyday level and you have it within the team. Or you, in a way, you need to get close to any music association or music institution that can give you, well, I wouldn't say institution, but... for certain music structure that can give you that know-how. What I wouldn't do is to choose one because that would be too bilateral and would make this kind of thing non-objective. And

I think you need to listen to more than one voice, to more than one level. And that's why maybe one person by himself, meaning if you take me or any electronic music artist, the link will be immediate and will be a bit more radical that we assume than if you take a pop person or a rock person or a reggae person or jazz person. Do I love jazz and to think they might need some kind of innovation, but for instance, the opera world is very aware because of the money they have or what they have that they need technological advances. So I always said to people, don't despise the classical music.

Because it's like talking to high-end fashion, they have money, they need to have more young people attracted to it, and they will accept any technological advance that can be actually improving their reach. So I always said, why are people not considering classical music? I would love to. I actually was invited to talk marketing within the Association of Opera Houses in Europe.

Jakob Wredstrøm (01:00:04.374) because they need these kind of approaches and they need to hear from tech. And that's why some operas are working on immersive solutions. They want this connectivity with people. They're building streaming scenarios outside the streaming platform. They probably need NFT tickets. They have money to create that kind of tailor-made technology for themselves. And you know, it's very important that we follow up the big players, people that have money and they use technology and they can spill the beans, but at the same time say, okay, they can do it like that. How do I do it with less money and applicable to a larger reach? Because if not, we will have technology applied to only

The big players. And for me, it's important that any player that is relevant in the music industry or cultural industry has the same opportunities, technologically speaking. Thank you so much for being on. I'm so excited about Music Directorial Academy and the lucky companies that are going to go through that are also going to talk with you. And I think there's so much to be discovered in what you're saying. And to be completely frank, I think this is one of the parts of the music industry that I'm the least excited about. I'll explain it because, again, I'm just going to refer back to sort of how I operate.

Barely understand sarcasm. Like it's just so foreign for me. But whenever you come into languages that needs to be learned, it is difficult for me, but I also believe for lot of entrepreneurs as well, a lot of people. And this is the difficult barrier that needs to be not necessarily overcome, but addressed. And I don't think a lot of people are talking about it actually. I have two... things before we finish and it's like...

I love the music ecosystem. I know the challenges. I've been riding on the waves and I've been down and I've been up, which is fine. It's part of the life anyway. But I would think sometimes sarcasm is a way to protect fear and to overplay yourself is a way to the fear of being underplayed. Which there is. There is fear at some point. There is fear of losing the copyrights. There's a feeling of fear around music recognition. There's a fear about how technology can really

Change too much, let's say, and depersonalize the business. So that's a fear I can share, can understand. Technology is so fast, the music is not fast. And another thing is, where are the media and how they play? Because I'm talking to a podcast, which I love, but it's where are the media and how they play this gap? And I think that there's less and less media specialized in music per se.

There's more and more media specialized in music industry, per se. And so we missing the music soul sometimes, I think, in the music media. And you know, people read these things and share these things. And right now we all reading about economy, but we are less and less reading about culture. And I'm concerned about that. And I do think there should be more and more. That's why I could do, you know, anytime you want to invite me, I'll be there.

You know, processing my belief. Because I think word out, I'm really proud of having this background of communication. Sometimes I underplay it, but I think I was very fortunate to be born like that because I really feel I want to speak out and I feel comfortable. And I really think that, you know, you're doing an amazing job of putting this out in the world. I would share it within. My communities and my jobs and because we speak a lot about these things as you can imagine and I think it's been a great conversation in order to put out the word in being bridging the gap but also bridging the gap about anything that is kind of going one way

Or the other and as you know there is this kind of trend of isolating economy in a big bunch of big rich people and big technology solutions that will avoid the touch and feel of everybody else possibilities in the world too. It's like people, like young kids without the coding or we need to upscale your knowledge in tech, a minimum knowledge in tech, but you also know that when you go to school, you're not taught these kinds of things.

Education is essential, is very, very essential. And it doesn't mean for kids. No, no. For everyone. Every day, all life. Mothers, father, kids, and everything in between, but also professionals that want to learn how to understand technology better and how to understand the positivity of technology and evolution. Yeah. This has been amazing. Thank you so much. All startups listening, go apply through Music Sacred Root Academy.

There's two weeks left. Do you say Tuck, I think? Music Tech? No, you say Tuck in your country. Tuck. Yeah, we do. We do. Say Tuck. I think you say Tuck. So many Tucks to you for this conversation. Respect for each other's cultures. And I hope we see each other very soon. Thank you.