SC-117 · Founder
Use Branding to Attract Tech Partnerships and Customers
Guest: Erik Herrström, Creative Director and Founder of Studio Herrström
Summary
Erik Herrström is the creative director and founder of Studio Herrström, a branding agency based in Vienna. Originally from Sweden, he spent most of his career in New York working on brand and design for Nike, Google, YouTube and Spotify's in-house agency before moving to Europe to start his own studio. Host Jakob Wredstrøm, mid-rebrand of his own company's website, uses the conversation to learn what a brand actually is.
Herrström defines a brand as a feeling, the way a company acts, talks and looks, built by understanding exactly who you are trying to reach rather than copying what looks successful. He argues most music tech companies end up looking identical because they imitate the visual style of Spotify or other big players instead of researching their own audience, and that testing messaging on real people in the target group matters more than personal taste.
He warns founders against over-designing a brand before it is tested. At a recent pitch event, many startups had slides whose visuals, wording and spoken pitch all pulled in different directions, which made investors distrust the idea itself. Herrström believes AI will make visuals easier to produce but will not replace the work of genuinely connecting with an audience, since AI-generated content tends to converge on the same generic look everyone else is already using.
As of the episode's release on 24 June 2025.
Key takeaways
- 01Herrström defines a brand simply as a feeling, the way a company acts, talks and looks, which goes further than a logo or color palette.
- 02He says most music tech companies end up looking the same because they copy successful players like Spotify instead of researching their own audience.
- 03Testing a brand on real people in the target group matters more than personal taste, since founders often cannot judge their own resonance objectively.
- 04At a pitch event he attended, founders' slide visuals, wording and spoken pitch often pulled in different directions, which made investors distrust the underlying idea.
- 05Herrström believes AI will make visuals easier to produce but will not replace the work of genuinely connecting with an audience, since generated content tends to converge on one generic look.
- 06He worked on Sony Music's rebrand of Elvis Presley, basing the new identity on a 1968 Comeback Special logo and interviews with fans across generations, including his own grandmother.
Guest
- Erik Herrström, Creative Director and Founder at Studio Herrström
Questions this episode answers
What is a brand, in simple terms?
Herrström defines a brand as a feeling, the way a company acts, talks, sounds and looks, much like the way a person expresses themselves. He says a brand only works if the people you are trying to reach can genuinely connect with that feeling, rather than admire it from a distance.
Why do so many music tech company brands look the same?
Herrström says founders often assume a music tech brand has to look duotone or use cutout artist imagery because that worked for Spotify years ago, so many startup websites end up looking nearly identical. He argues that sameness is exactly why they fail to stand out, since standing out requires looking and speaking differently from the market leader.
Should a startup invest in a polished brand before pitching investors?
Herrström says he watched founders at a recent pitch event whose slide visuals, wording and spoken pitch all pulled in different directions, which made it harder for investors to trust the underlying idea. He suggests it can be better to pitch with plain, honest slides than to present a disconnected, half-built identity.
Will AI replace the need for professional branding?
Herrström says AI is simply another tool, similar to the arrival of the computer, but generating a brand is not the same as connecting with the small group of people who actually care about it. He points to a SoundCloud study showing under 2% of fans can generate over 40% of an artist's revenue, arguing that concentrated loyalty is exactly what a real brand has to earn.
a brand is basically the way you act, the way you talk, the way you sound and look
Episode notes
It is more than a design.
We are looking into the evolving importance of brand in music tech, how storytelling and authentic connection drive loyalty, and offering practical advice for founders who want to shape identity, visually and verbally.
All these are discussed with Erik Herrström, the creative director in Vienna who has worked with top-tier brands like Nike, Spotify, and Google and then, launched STUDIO HERRSTRÖM, an agency committed to shaping brand identities that resonate deeply in music tech and beyond.
Learn more about the agency: https://www.studioherrstrom.com/
___________________________________________________________________________
Sponsored by Allfeat: Decentralized Blockchain Solutions for the Music Industry - https://www.allfeat.com/
Produced by Amplitude Ventures Consulting: Partners in Early-Stage Music Tech - https://amplitude.ventures
Topics
Transcript
Transcribed from the recording by the production team. Names and terms may be misspelled.
Read the full transcript
Jakob Wredstrøm
Have you used Riverside before?
Erik Herrström
Yes, I've been interviewed once before on a podcast.
Jakob Wredstrøm
So now how it works, but I'm just going to restate it. The way that it works is it streams, downloads and uploads at the same time, which means I get full quality no matter what. So if it gets grainy, you don't need to worry about it. If there's lagging, you don't need to worry about it. It's never going to show at the end. And then also if you have background noise, you don't need to worry about it either. We have really good suppression tools. So that's basically the technicalities. Normally I need to test for internet, but you're sweet with a...
Erik Herrström
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Agency so I know that's good. You are not based in Stockholm are you?
Erik Herrström
No, I'm based in Vienna, in Austria.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah, that's what you said. Okay. I don't know. But I guess that's a pretty good infrastructure country as well.
Erik Herrström
We actually have issues in our office with internet, only when we're only when we're a few people here, but I'm alone today actually so it's fine. Yes.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Okay. Great. I think that's the major things and I come to arm with questions, so I'm pretty sure that will be good on my end. Do you have any big questions?
Erik Herrström
I suppose worth asking... So you have a lot of questions. I of course might wanna... Like just in order to create a dialogue I might ask things back to you. Do you want it to be that type of dialogue?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah. I think conversations where that happens, it really works well. So I usually don't initiate it myself unless that's a natural part of the other end. But I see no decrease in value of that. Absolutely. One technical thing though, I do believe if you could raise your computer maybe like 10 centimeters, the angle would be even better.
Erik Herrström
Yeah, good.
Erik Herrström
Yeah. No, good, nice. Okay.
Jakob Wredstrøm
So if you have two books.
Erik Herrström
I'll grab a big book somewhere.
Erik Herrström
Looks like a phone book, but it's not. No, was someone, some designer that has played on the idea of a phone book,
Jakob Wredstrøm
It isn't?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Okay, if you can angle it a tiny bit more down, there we go, maybe one centimeter more down with the screen, there we go, like that, yeah, then I think that's a more appropriate angle. You know what, completely parallel to the background, so if you want to put it a bit to the right and then angle it other way.
Erik Herrström
like this right
Jakob Wredstrøm
There we go, that looks more correct, yes.
Erik Herrström
I just wanna like, should I sit in the middle of this thing? That's what I'm messing around with.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Usually it works pretty fine within middle.
Erik Herrström
Yeah, well then, like this, I think. Is that good?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah, a tiny bit more to your left, I guess.
Erik Herrström
Am I left this way? No. That way.
Jakob Wredstrøm
No, I'm sorry, the computer, the angling of the computer, not you. The one a bit more tiny bit more I think that looks correct.
Erik Herrström
Nice. Alright.
Jakob Wredstrøm
There you go. Great, last piece of information, super simple. I start the episodes the same way every single time. It is, I make a super short introduction and I say hi and then I ask you, who are you and what do you do? And then you have 30 seconds, one minute to introduce yourself. And then I ask you about Hairstrom Studio. How do I say this in an international way? Hairstrom?
Erik Herrström
Studio Hurstrom. Yes.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Studio Hurstrom, Studio Hurstrom, or Studio Hurstrom, yes, Hurstrom. And then you can maybe spend like a minute or two explaining what you guys do. And then we'll basically use your founder's story as like a timeline almost to travel through. And we'll talk about all the topics in between the timelines. So that's a really good sort of center of the conversation. We'll end at where you're in now, we'll start at where you began, but we won't necessarily take
Erik Herrström
Okay.
Jakob Wredstrøm
The actual deep dives in that order. Like we can talk about important stuff at the same time. Does that make sense?
Erik Herrström
Sure, yes absolutely.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Great. Do you have water, coffee, everything you need?
Erik Herrström
I have, yes.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Great, then I will start in five seconds.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hey guys and welcome back to the Sound Conditions Podcast. Today I have Eric in the studio, welcome.
Erik Herrström
Thanks Jacob, super happy to be here.
Jakob Wredstrøm
As I to you when we just jumped off the call, like I've been looking forward to this podcast for, well, a lot. And that is we've had a couple of really interesting conversations in last few months and that is about brand and Eric, you run a studio that is incredibly interesting and your history of music tech has also been incredibly interesting. So for the people who don't know you, Eric, who are you and what do?
Erik Herrström
So I'm the creative director and founder of Studio Hurstrom. It's a branding agency based in Vienna in Austria. I'm originally from Sweden, but I've spent the majority of my career in New York working for brands like Nike, Spotify, Beats Music, and a lot of other big tech brands that have had a massive impact on culture.
Jakob Wredstrøm
And we'll talk about that today and we'll get into sort of Studio Herstrom and what you work with. But one commentary I want to begin with is something I mentioned in a first call, I guess, a few weeks ago or a month ago, and that is AI and brand. And traditionally speaking, technology has been one of the biggest, you know, hurdles that startups needs to tackle. To a big degree, it still is. But more so now, at least in my opinion, my understanding of where things are moving, it is the storytelling, the brand that maybe has taken the first place in that whole journey as a startup. Maybe not now, maybe in the future. I don't know where it is. It's just incredibly more important front of mind for founders than it used to be. But we'll cover that conversation a lot in this talk. Studio Hurstrom, what do you guys do and how does that play into my comment now of how timely branding is?
Erik Herrström
Well, so what we do is that we help a lot of founders. We help a lot of marketing departments and brand departments at big tech companies as well as smaller companies. We help a lot of startups as well. And what we do is to really figure out what the founders are trying to do, what their purpose of their business is, and help them tell their story, both visually and verbally to the world. Because... brand identity, which is mainly what we help them figure out as well as campaigns and websites and all of this, is all about telling a story, right? All about trying to connect with people out there and try to create a connection so that they potentially buy your services, sign up for your platform, try out whatever it is that you're selling or providing. But what's so, so often missed is that closer connection and understanding of who you're actually talking to. It's so easy to just believe that... It's so easy to just believe that whatever you know or what you think you know about who you're selling to is the right way. Do you see what I mean with that?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Can I ask a very basic question? I just want to start my curiosity the right way. Could you explain to me, what is a brand?
Erik Herrström
Yeah, of course. So a brand is basically the way you act, the way you talk, the way you sound and look, right? Just like us as people, we have certain ways of speaking, certain ways of looking, know, way of expressing ourselves, right? And that is exactly like a brand is. A brand is a feeling and you need to be able to feel like you can connect with it.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm. And obviously this is very relevant to music as the, you know, one of the core things about being an artist is I guess having a brand, a story that people connect to. But how does this translate into music technology, for example?
Erik Herrström
Yeah, so that is something very interesting to me because obviously artists they have a lot of expression, right? They're actually creating songs, they're telling stories through their music. That's one thing, right? They're selling themselves or like sharing their thoughts with the world through music and creativity. While a tech company or a company in general, right? That is also a feeling but... The feeling is kind of also what they're providing to the world, right? So if you are running a music platform where you can stream music, instance, what you're actually doing for people is to create an easier way for people to access music. Like you can have music on your phone, you can have it with you at all times. You just have to hit an icon on your... on your dashboard or whatever, right? And directly access all music in the world. That's the feeling that they should be selling, right? The easy way to discover new music and listen to music at all times. Does that make sense?
Jakob Wredstrøm
It does and I think I'll dissect that during a call because as I disclaimed when we just jumped on a call, I'm taking this opportunity for myself to learn today and I hope my listeners can learn with me but I'm gonna be first priority today because I have so many questions and because I need to learn. Again, right now today we're launching a new website for Amplitude Ventures. I am no expert in brand and I've come to think that I have some sort of a visual eye but It's not something I've appreciated that much lately. And really it was a LinkedIn post that sort of opened my eyes for branding. Maybe six months ago. was very late. I might be the category that's been ignoring this for a long time. Where they talked about that argument I just came with technology versus branding. What was important? What will be important? Where is the competitive advantage? So, so I'll try to break it down because my understanding is very basic to be completely frank and honest. And I want to be. Competitively relevant. I want to stand out. I want to win clients and partnerships and I know now that Our brand needs to be if we are have a strong brand that's going to be more likely So I'm gonna take that opportunity to say but we will of course also talk about your founder journey Which is at a center role, but how did you even start with realizing that brands is important and particularly music? Like what was your journey into all this?
Erik Herrström
My journey actually started more with digital design originally. I actually moved to New York originally to redesign Nike.com and bringing over 70 digital websites all together into one big project. I was joining this...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Okay.
Erik Herrström
this massive project that lasted over a year and a half as a designer. So was actually not leading that project at all. was learning, was designing, and my strength was really in digital design. But I learned a lot about what it meant to actually bring together commerce, brand, and to create a bigger digital ecosystem. And for me, there was something really, really interesting in the aspect of brand and the way that you're actually connecting with... with customers in that sense. And that led me to actually transitioning team after a year and a half to the Nike brand team instead. And it helped me understand better of like, what is the purpose of what we're doing with different campaigns and how are we trying to connect with different customer bases for different sports, different areas of the world, et cetera. And, you know, why are all the campaigns looking different? Why do they talk differently? And What I got to realize quite fast there is that it's all about kind of knowing who you're actually selling to, right? What do they actually care about? And this is often what's missed. So when you're putting up your new website right now, right? And when you're launching a brand, surely it is gonna be at a level where you feel like, okay, this feels nice, this looks good. The words make sense to us. but what's so often missed and so such like the easiest thing that we all can do, right, is actually to ask some people that we know that could be in the target audience for your brand. Like, how does it feel to them? know, does this make sense or are we just too much in our own heads when we write the copy or when we design the logo? Do people actually understand what we're on about?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
And what is the best sort of rule of thumb is that people around you need to believe it resonates with their understanding of you or does it need to provoke or like what are the things you're looking at to have that evaluation?
Erik Herrström
So it's really, really important to understand the characteristics of the people you're trying to get to. Are they... Like first of all, whatever you're trying to do in the market, right, is probably going to be reflective of the people you're trying to get to as well, right? So if you're trying to disrupt the music industry, for instance, then you should probably look for certain characteristics in the people you're trying to sell to as well, right? If, like for instance...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
Let's say there are a few players that you would sign up to if you want to stream music, right? But if you want to enter the market with a new streaming platform, you're going to have a hard time getting a lot of the people, but you might be able to get a few people that are open to new ideas, open to try new things, right? And those are the ones that you then have to try to target with the words you use, et cetera.
Jakob Wredstrøm
So it's not so much, you know, whether or not it maybe I'm overseeing here, not so much the people around you, whether or it seems like credible to who you are, but more like who you're trying to target and does it seem correct to them or does it resonate with them? Is that more the thing?
Erik Herrström
Yeah, 100%. It's all about how it resonates.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Okay. Yeah. Because this is the thing that I don't understand a lot about. So we'll dissect this more and we'll sort of go back to your journey and I'll ask you a lot more stupid questions. But, so you work at this Nike company, you work from, know, transition from design team to the brand team and have this deeper understanding of what branding means and how to run campaigns. How did you end up with music?
Erik Herrström
So during my time in New York, I actually started doing a few projects for different artists. I started to do visual identities for artists. And at the same time, I transitioned into another agency and started working for Google, for instance, and did some campaigns for Google Music and a few different things in the media, also in film, et cetera. But it kind of started becoming a bit more music all the time. So I started doing these artist identities, I did a bit of Google Music, et cetera. Also did some campaigns for YouTube. But then I was offered to come join Spotify's in-house agency and the brand design team there. So it was a team of 15 people inside of an in-house agency of 80 people in total. And that's kind of where it all flipped towards music, would say.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Okay, what does an in-house agency mean?
Erik Herrström
So I'm sure you're aware of like an ad agency, what that is, right? A marketing agency somehow, right? And there was a big, big shift about 10 years ago. So there were all these big agencies out in the world with hundreds or thousands of people at each of them. And the big companies used to basically have...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yep. Sure.
Erik Herrström
huge retainers with these agencies, paying them a lot of money of course, but they also got a lot back. They created all the campaigns, all the products, et cetera. But then there was a realization, I think, that... perhaps we can do a bit of this ourselves if we hire the right people. So it started to become attractive for people to come to work at, for instance, Google and Facebook originally, and they created these amazing perks that people couldn't say no to. So they managed to get a lot of people from these type of agencies, and then that kind of inspired other big successful companies to start doing the same thing.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm, okay. I have a question about Spotify and I might be completely wrong on this so just bear with me. I also have a conversation with one of my mentors who's also happened to be Swedish and you know been a music tech for a long time. and was talking about Spotify the first five to six years was like a horrible UX and like very tech driven first. I might be wrong here. I did get access to Spotify really early because I had Swedish friends and I stole their accounts, well, bought their accounts like when it was really early on. So I do remember it, but I didn't have... you know, the reflections to say whether or not that was true or not. Because right now, Spotify, at least as I said, it has like a really clear identity and then all these yearly recaps and there's a lot of interaction with people that's very clearly recognizable. Was that a big strategy, Spotify, at one point, that this we need to be stronger? I don't know what happened there at that company.
Erik Herrström
So when I joined Spotify in 2016, they had just been going through a major rebranding. I was not part of the very early days, I can't speak about it like this. But what I have seen though, in terms of observation from the outside and what I've also maybe heard, know, and read up on is early on when Spotify launched in...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
in the Scandinavian market, right? It was this very dark brand. was black, green and white, right? And a lot of the photography was very, very much focused on party, having a good time, know, enjoying good times with your friends. But then with their major rebranding that they did with Collins in 2015, I believe, you know, it now... became more of a global brand. They managed to really reflect what music and culture is, how vibrant it is, how much emotion is built into it. And also like they created a flexible brand that was able to kind of showcase the diversity of music. And that's my observation versus an official story, I would say.
Jakob Wredstrøm
My relationship to brands in general has been, I don't know a lot. And I think what sticks in my mind for the last few years is sometimes you fall over these, let's call it logo redesigning, funny stories where you see a company spending millions of dollars on changing one small thing. And I think that sometimes just over clouds to the very basic narrative of branding.
Erik Herrström
Hmm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Does it really make a difference? would assume yes, but like, why does it make a difference? Try to explain it to me.
Erik Herrström
Yeah, I think yes, it happens. I've also seen those type of stories, right? Where there's tiny tweaks to a logo. Obviously those tweaks are for improvements. But I think it's often missed from an outside perspective and that there is a bigger change that happens probably. There is probably a pivot that happens in their strategy, in their positioning, in the way they talk, in their greater design system maybe or, you know, in... in their tone or in writing right as well in like basically the whole expression of the brand but then there might be this little tweak to the logo that gets the headlines and the conversation going.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm. Yeah. And these small tees like really does matter. And again, even though I don't know a lot, like one of the conversations I've had with my, with my business partner is we do a lot of, client meetings and I have a particular way of, of being, which I'm, very direct, you know, I'm, borderline rude. might see kind of the podcast. not in person. And we've tried to be navigating how do I stay true to myself and still not lose clients? Because in reality, like if I have, let's say, South European people I'm speaking with, you know, people take me as offensive and I don't want to be that even though I do want to stay true to myself. And one of the things that we've discussed is, okay, the place we're most comfortable with is like tone of voice is very neutral. which means almost like engineering-like, we say things as it is, and then just a hint of salesmanship. And what works for us there is that I can stay true to myself. I still feel like I compromised because I do want to be rude, just per default. I can stay true to myself and I can still see, okay, it is more effective if I also have a hint of salesmanship. So it kind of feels like an internal...
Erik Herrström
Yeah.
Jakob Wredstrøm
compromised to some degree, but I can also see that sort of supports the effort. And these small changes, like how much salesmanship on top, the dial button actually really changes the business. It's insane to see. Like if I just dial a tiny bit up sometimes, I actually land a sale. And in the same situation when I have it tiled down, I don't land the sale. And like comparable cases. But maybe you can recognize this and maybe speak a bit to why that is.
Erik Herrström
I mean, that is very, very interesting. I do think it's definitely a result of that we, in today's world, are able to speak with people from completely different places, right? Completely different cultures and backgrounds. And we're speaking to each other right now, even though we're on opposite sides of the continent. And it's a little bit crazy, right? We do both come from Scandinavia, and for that reason, we understand each other's... you know, tone, think, maybe better. I do think that it comes down a lot to being humble, you know, act a little bit like, let's say that you're actually traveling to Southern Europe, right? If you're meeting someone, you know, that you don't know from before, right? How do you keep a humble tone that feels welcoming and inviting, you know, as much as you want to be yourself? You always have to kind of adjust your tone a little bit, right? To make sure it feels right, you know, to be a nice person. I'm curious when you say that you're sounding rude, is it simply the directness that's used in Scandinavia a lot?
Jakob Wredstrøm
No, it's because I am rude, actually. yeah, no, well, you haven't had given me an opportunity to be rude because I normally am rude if I fundamentally disagree with something, which happens a lot. I think we're quite aligned in the world outlook. Yeah, so that's why it changes. But maybe a bigger question on top of that is, you I was at this...
Erik Herrström
I've experienced it so far.
Erik Herrström
That's it. Okay.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Presentation at an embassy and they talked about, it was basically a Norwegian-Chinese trade relationship thing going on and there was this presenter talking about sort high context versus low cultural context. So basically, some contexts require a lot of contextual understanding and some have much lower. I'm not trying to butcher it, like, for example, in Denmark, where I'm from and in Norway, like it's sort of low, low context. Like people can read between the lines. You don't need to be like as specific, just, you know, work in this direction. And normally that works well. For example, in, in Africa, where we have a lot of, presence that used to be much more high contextual. So I need to describe the actual actions I want to see. And there's less of this, like, you know, broad, broad interpretation of, things. And that really changes across the world. How do you navigate that? A brand because I guess that's a big thing.
Erik Herrström
I find that very, very interesting. I just wanted to ask a counter question before answering though. So let's say that one of your partners in Africa is in Denmark or Norway instead. Do you think that they would feel like they would have to over-describe certain things? Or do you think that is simply just depending on location?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah.
Jakob Wredstrøm
I don't know how to answer that question, but maybe I'll give an example to try to answer that question. And it's super simple. For example, when I have my employees and I ask a question to, let's say, a lot of the people we have in Ethiopia, what they tend to do is they contextualize this first and then give the answer at the end. So, what do you think about this? And then they say, this and this color and this and this thing and then these lines there, there and yes. For me it's yes, this is why. And that's actually a big fundamental difference because I don't appreciate you taking your time to explain it to me first thing give your answer. I would like to be informed directly what you think and then you can explain it to me.
Erik Herrström
Okay, I see.
Erik Herrström
I see.
Jakob Wredstrøm
And I guess from a brand positioning, this is very key for us because do we paint the picture first and then say, this is what you can buy? Like, this is what it is and I'll tell you why it's cool. Do you get what mean?
Erik Herrström
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So the way that this is dealt with in a brand world basically is by using local teams, local talents, local contacts to do the research with. So we, for instance, we have helped shape over 30 editorial brands together with Spotify over the last few years. We work with a global team on the editorial side, but then... we also through them collaborate with the local team. So we collaborated with the Japanese team, with the local team in Colombia, in Canada, North America in general, and in different countries in Europe as well. And what happens then is basically that, you know, we get briefed by them. There is a creative challenge to try to create a new editorial brand, basically a playlist brand for... for a playlist that's very niche and trying to be for people that listens to specific music within that region. So, like then we ask a lot of questions. We ask a lot of questions in terms of like the fandom, what they're trying to do, what's unique about this playlist, like what other brands do these people typically use, where do they move? You know, how do they think and what cultural aspects do they really care about? And with that, we're able to propose different directions after doing our research, asking a lot of questions again, and basically come up with different conceptual designs that can be solutions to the new brand. Does that make sense?
Jakob Wredstrøm
It does make sense to sort of flip that question. That is, you know, almost the opposite exercise you guys did at Nike. Like, what was the reason behind sort of consolidating 70 different regions into one then? Like, where's the trade off?
Erik Herrström
So it wasn't actually regions. Was basically back then Nike used to have like 70 different websites basically to make it simple. So let's say that there were all the different sports like basketball, football, running, etc. They all had different websites, different... Websites that need to be updated in terms of the e-commerce in terms of the brand in terms of everything right and it was all living separately and it became so much for them to try to keep up with and You know they had to maintain all of those things So with this project we managed to bring together all those 70 sites into one. So it was called the one Nike
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
This next question is sort of related to this, again, I just, I'm shooting questions because I'm so curious. Like I was sitting on TikTok this morning. I don't really use social media anymore, but TikTok for me is like my thing. Think TikTok really works well if you cater to the algorithms the way that you want. Maybe, or so you also get very biased, but I was, was looking at this sort of tiny desk that I've seen many times before and I will butcher and forget the name. It's a Spanish band or from, from South America, something Amora. Anyways, it's amazing. And I was listening to this music and I was thinking to myself, if I watch this live, I love it here on TikTok, I would feel very disconnected, but I would love it. And my wife would hate it. Because it's so disconnected. So I would love it because I'm disconnected. She would hate it because she's disconnected. What is the part of branding that is aspiration and mystery and like, don't know what this is, so I want to pursue it versus this is something I want to remove myself from because I can imagine many brands, like this doesn't feel like me and therefore I want to get it or I don't want to get it. Like how do you dissect these things?
Erik Herrström
I mean, I think it's based on psychology and feelings, right? So it's hard to put a finger maybe on what was so excited about this thing that you saw on TikTok. What was so exciting about this concert, about the music, the way that things happen, right? Do you think that there was something within there that's hard to put a finger on what it was?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
No, for me it was that it was so true to real musicianship. It was so modern and it's sort of subculture zeitgeist. And there was an unapologetic connection between those two. Like it was taking everything about the cutting edge, modern, like I'm cool. And then everything from musicianship that is cool and like very like small groups of people that really, you know, value. Complicated music and combined in an unapologetic way that made it very interesting to me. And I can define this because I am a musician. My wife does not have the appreciation of that combination and she just thinks this is not for me. Yeah, is that an explanation?
Erik Herrström
Right. Yeah, but that makes sense. Yeah, for sure. And I think that could be enough, right? At the same time. It's kind of like your... That is performance, right? It's something that you're really inspired by when you see it. I do think that is the aspect often of like artist brands, as we mentioned before, and any type of creativity, right? It's something that you see that you feel is... is new, it's inspiring, it's something that you probably find unique in some way, right? That's why you pay attention. It made you stop when you were scrolling on TikTok.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
I would really love to understand that more because even though I understand music quite well, I've spent my entire adult life in it. And when I think about Ossus in general, I'm just gonna take some random examples like Elton John or, let's just stay with him. It's Ossus like him, Lady Gaga, these provocative figures that use that provocation to become big. How do they utilize that and how should that be used in music tech companies, if anything?
Erik Herrström
So this is a very interesting thing that I think a lot about and something that I come across a lot. I'm gonna start from the tech startup or tech company type of side though because what I see a lot and have seen so much throughout the years and also seen when I speak to lot of founders of companies is that The way that they design their brands, especially on the visual side, would say, is that they look at the big players and then they think that, okay, well, this is the way that a music tech company is supposed to look like, right?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm.
Erik Herrström
It's supposed to have this duotone effect because that was successful for Spotify back in the day. Or it should have these shapes coming up behind an artist or they should... There should be this cutout UI that's very popular with a lot of tech companies, etc. And what happens is that so many of these websites for different tech companies, especially in the music scene, up looking the same. They look so, so similar. And for that reason they don't stand out. And if you think about Elton John, Lady Gaga, or a personal experience to me is when I saw Grace Jones live for instance. Grace Jones as well, like she has her own attitude, her own style, she could stand out, know, she was not like everyone else when she broke through. And I think that's often a success of any artist or company. If you manage to do something a little bit different, if you look different, if you speak different.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm.
Erik Herrström
This is the way you can stand out and you don't stand out by just looking like everyone else.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Back to my wife analogy because my wife and me are very different and I'll use it because it's just very easy for me to understand. You know, if she were to see something new come out like that, she would like, that's silly, I don't get it, why are they doing this? It seems disingenuous. And when I see it, I'm like, hmm. Made me remember. I'll take an example that probably no one would know, but I'm Danish. I don't follow the Danish music scene that much, but there's only one person I'm really interested in and it's a guy called Benjamin Hau. And he's a Danish 40 year old something, dad of three, always performs in a suit. And his whole show is like backup singers and dancers that are grown up dads in suits. You know, I wouldn't call them fat, but definitely not fit. And dancing, coordinating, doing funny stuff, and it stands out to me so much. So when I choose to put on Danish music, the first thing I think about is Benjamin A. I think his music is great, know, don't get me wrong, but like, I always remember him first, just because it's something that was so interesting to me and it's so refreshing. And that's why I listen to it on how, just because I thought about him before anyone else. And I think that to some degree that's maybe also how music works in general. Like, can you comment on that? Why does that work?
Erik Herrström
I do think it works because there is something different he does, right? He is obviously talented, he definitely creates good music, right? Because that's, you are a musician yourself, you have listened to a lot of music, to you this sounds really good, plus that the performance is something unique that you haven't seen from anyone else before. So I think it's all about that, right? It's all about that there was something that stuck with you there and something...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
Even if you might not be the guy that would be on that stage, both singing and dancing in that suit, etc. Maybe there's something underlying that you can connect with somehow. Something that felt connected to something from your past or someone that you know or some humor you can connect with. I don't know if it's funny or if it's just...
Jakob Wredstrøm
For me, it's, know, if I want to go deep about it and I've actually thought about it because, know, even though I don't know about brands, I do know a lot about this. And in essence, it's brands. I'm just first now connecting it while we talk. thank you for that. And that is, I have always felt a bit on the outside of the zeitgeist of the culture of things. you know, a lot of my... Colleagues have have been like, you know in a small days context like the biggest in their field and like, know, Danny's Grammys and like You know, these are the people around me and they've also always been cool I've always felt a lot on the outside like I you know, I don't like drinking that much. I've never partied hard I don't like festivals like it's not my type of thing So I've always felt disconnected and when I look at Benjamin how it's it's just so accessible for me because there's nothing cool about this there's nothing like This guy has a six-pack pack or it's just like he's just a really really clever artist that sort of placed this outsized version of a dad on stage and is unapologetic about it and you know 10 years ago this wouldn't have been cool but like it's it's almost like a social commentary like you know don't tell me what's cool if that makes sense that's what i get from the whole thing
Erik Herrström
Hmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's really worth thinking about as well in terms of like, it is often something that we can connect with or resonate with, right? And the same thing goes for anything in the world. Like people we follow on social media, right? It's often people that we find interesting for different aspects, right? Is it the way they dress, the way they talk, the music they create or... the places they travel to or whatever it is, right? It's often things that feels like maybe there's an aspect there that you can connect with, something that you want to challenge maybe.
Jakob Wredstrøm
But to some degree, does need to, and I'm asking, does it need to feel aspirational or maybe a bit more outspoken than what it actually is? How much does the exaggeration matter in these cases?
Erik Herrström
I think the more true you are to yourself as an artist, the better it's probably going to be. I don't think you have to be outspoken about it, but I think it needs to feel... Oftentimes it goes better for artists that doing something different, something unique somehow, right? And that's what you pay attention to.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Maybe this is a hard question for you to answer because it comes down to an individual level as a Nazis, but like, I think growing up, you know, I come from a relatively conservative family and whenever someone has sort of been extravagant in music, you know, my parents' perception has been like, they're just, know, doing this to exaggerate or it's a play for the gallery, that kind of stuff. But then when I've come to know a lot of artists, this is their true self. It might take shape and form very intentionally, as far as I see, there's no disconnect between who they are and how they express themselves. How does that transfer to creating a brand? Again, I'm in the process, we've just launched a new website. I want to work more with the brand, but like...
Erik Herrström
Hmm.
Erik Herrström
Yeah.
Jakob Wredstrøm
I don't know how to express that story. I don't know how to understand where's my weirdness, where's my out of the box. Because as far as I understand, differentiation and that personal aspect is important. But if I don't know how to find that in myself, how do I go about it?
Erik Herrström
Do you think there are brands out there that has a true personality that you can point out?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Such an interesting question. I don't think I've ever thought about it intentionally, to be true.
Erik Herrström
Hmm. Do you feel like, for instance, Coca-Cola has a... Does it have a feeling that you can point towards?
Jakob Wredstrøm
No, not.
Erik Herrström
No, like have you ever seen the holiday campaigns for Coca-Cola for instance? Like this typical song you know we always hear like when this truck is traveling through the snow for instance,
Jakob Wredstrøm
I've seen it and I can intellectualize it. Can't feel it right now though, but again, I can intellectualize. Yes. What the brand is.
Erik Herrström
No. Yeah, yeah. I think it's worth thinking through that type of thing though, like in terms of like, maybe a more clear example could be Nike then for instance, like does that brand give you a feeling? If you go to a sports store and you're going to buy a new running jacket or whatever it is, do you...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yes.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
Do you think there is a difference between Umbro and Nike, instance, when you just experience the brands?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yes, I definitely do. Yes.
Erik Herrström
At the same time, could be... Technically, I'm sure that the products are not always super, super different. So technically, if the logos swapped place, do you think that you would have the other feeling for the other product?
Jakob Wredstrøm
I think so. I was actually thinking about what you talked about. I would not ever buy a Nike thing because of the logo. And the reason for that is that I associate that with my brothers. Like, cool kids, you know, very sporty. I think there's some sort of status to it. There's something about, you know... I think that's the words I would associate to it and I wouldn't place myself there. But again, so I do have a brand association to it. Also like why I would not buy it, if that makes sense.
Erik Herrström
Sure. No, that's...
Erik Herrström
Yeah, that's fair. Absolutely. And there might be other brands that you pick instead, right? And I think the same thing goes, for instance, when you need to think about maybe buying a car or something like this, right? There are so many good car brands out in the world, right? They do very similar things often.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm.
Erik Herrström
And the way that people go by actually picking a car brand is of course because of budget, but the budget range often has, you know, it has a few brands that you can pick between. But it often comes down to a feeling of the brand. Maybe you've experienced it through commercials, you experienced it through, you know, sitting in it. How does it feel if you go to try it, you know, or you've been in a friend's car or something like this, or is it the...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mmm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm.
Erik Herrström
The way that they talk, know, and the way that the billboard maybe talks about something, right? There is some type of feeling there. And they all have different characteristics. They all stand for different things. They all come from different places and they all try to push for different things that you can resonate with and things that connect you with a brand. Yeah, I don't know why peak, why do people pick a car brand, you know?
Jakob Wredstrøm
You
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
That's interesting.
Jakob Wredstrøm
One thing I think about is, coming back to, I haven't really spent a lot of time other than the last six months to really think about brands. And while you talk, I was thinking about all the brands I wouldn't buy. And again, maybe this is just because I am not that reflective. I can still react to my subconscious emotions. I would never, this is not dissing any car brand or any people. Like I would never buy a BMW because I lived in Northern Copenhagen where this is very gang related. I would never buy a Mercedes because this for me is like people who's trying to flash. I'm just talking from my cultural context. I would never buy an audio.
Erik Herrström
Mm-hmm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Audi because this is people who has a lot of money and I've never grown up to appreciate that. I would maybe buy a Volvo because it's sort of like looks serious but still like family oriented. I would definitely buy a Skoda because for me it's like a very neutral thing. Saab maybe. So I have a lot of associations to brands in a negative way.
Erik Herrström
Hmm
Jakob Wredstrøm
That I know I would never buy, less so things in a positive way. But I guess that might just come back to sort of my reflection and like intent of understanding why I react in certain ways. Does that make sense?
Erik Herrström
It totally makes sense. I think that's a way of thinking, that you... It's your way of sorting out what you want. Because I'm sure that you've ended up, you know, buying your furniture, buying your clothes, buying your car, you know, deciding on a lot of things in life. And your way of doing it might just be about somehow knowing what you don't want. Then...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
You see what's left and maybe there is one option or maybe there's a few options and somehow you need to pick whichever one is right there. But yeah, brand association is what it's all about and the closer connected you feel to a brand, the more likely you are to buy it. I think coming back to what you were talking about before, right? In terms of like now you're launching your own brand.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
The people you're trying to get to, the people you're trying to speak to, the ones you want to partner with and collaborate with, they need to kind of feel like it's right for them, right? And as you were mentioning, in some conversations, it might be hard to land a sale, to make someone else get on board with your ideas, with the way you do things, right? But at the same time, do you want to work with people who are not on board with...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
With that like would they actually create good partnerships for you? That might not be the way
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah. That's, I think that's really important point. We got to get back to your story. I'm really going down these angles and, so you were at Spotify in sort of brand design and now you're with Studio Hustrum. And that's a big, big leap from having these global brands, internal agencies. There's a lot of prestige around your work and then jumping into starting something of your own.
Erik Herrström
Okay.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Like, why did you make that change?
Erik Herrström
So being European, being in New York for nearly a decade, I wanted to eventually come back. I knew that I wanted to move back to Europe. During this time, I started dating someone in Austria. And during the pandemic, my visa in the US was about to come to a change. I could decide to either renew it for another few years or... or maybe take the leap. And I decided to quit my job at Spotify, to move to Austria, to Vienna, where I'm based now, and to start freelancing. So I started freelancing as a design director and creative director. I was working for, continuously working for quite big brands. Was, for instance, part of doing the rebranding of Discord and building out their design system. Together with a big agency. So I was hired as a specialist. And I was basically freelancing for two or three years and I started having more direct clients. I started having a need to get outside help. I to basically do more at once and I outgrew basically my own capacity. And that is the reason why I started Studio Hearst from.
Jakob Wredstrøm
And as a founder, I'm pretty sure you would have met some troubles in selling because again, we haven't really come into the AI part yet and we have limited time today. One of the things that I have had in my own founder journey, and I know very much so in many others, is the lack of value put towards a brand. Counter building out your tech and getting to the next place in your tech journey. How was it, besides these big brands that maybe would know the realities of what a brand means, what kind of pushback or challenges did you see in trying to convert people to understand that this is actually important?
Erik Herrström
Well, I think in terms of... How can I put that right? I think it was fortunate in the sense of having a bit of work to begin with, right? And then trying to shape that into a studio when there was a need, when we actually became a team.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
Where it really clicked for me was when I was able to express the true self of myself. To make that more clear... When I started off thinking about like, okay, is it possible for me to turn my freelancing into actually a company, to an agency in a studio? Is it possible to do that? I, as so many others had like imposter syndrome, I was looking at the competition, trying to figure out like, okay, if they do like this, should I do like that too? You know, I need to sound as professional as they do in order for clients to come to me, right? But. Where it really happened for me, where it really changed was when I allowed myself to be me and when I told my own story. When I was expressing the way that we do our work or the philosophy I believe in order to create real brands. As soon as I allowed myself to tell my real way of thinking, people started listening as well. And it was easier for me to have real conversations with clients.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm. I had an example, I think just yesterday, and actually I wasn't really thinking about talking with you today when I acted on this. Was, you know, we were launching a website today and I have one designer on our team that I really like, a young girl, and my idea was, okay, we launched a website today, but then I really want to rework the work in the brand because I've already had like, you know, some a lot of reflections last three months. And she was asking me, oh, well, okay, but you know, just to give me a reference point, like, what do you like? And not because this is what I wanted to be, but like the first thing I thought about was your website, actually. And I'm not necessarily saying that's me. I'm just saying, I really like this. So there must be something I'm reacting to. If you were to dissect your own brand, your own visual identity, and how it aligns with who you are as a person and who your team is, how would you do that? How would you describe that?
Erik Herrström
So we did a lot of work on this recently. We actually rethought our own brand or actually we did our first own branding for the first time ever. We've been around for two years as a studio and we didn't have our own way visually to articulate ourselves. But to us it became a quite simple thing in terms of like taking a proper step back actually thinking about like okay who we are and what we're actually doing. And the way our brand works is that we're basically connecting business and culture and we're helping our clients basically connect with culture, right? And for that reason, we use the age in Hurstrom. We flip that on the side and then you get two sides, right? You get something on one end and something on the other end and together they're actually connecting. And that's the partnerships that we help both. businesses to connect with culture, but also the partnerships that we connect as a studio with our clients. And in many cases, we work with our clients far after we have just created our initial identity of some sort. We also have them with campaigns and long-term work basically. But that's the way that we manage to approach our own identity as a little part of it, I would say.
Jakob Wredstrøm
For the listeners with a sense of detail, we'd see that you and I have the same endings of the names. My family originally is from Sweden and we actually had the O with Omlag before, so it's Danish thing that we changed. But how much does that mean in the brand understanding and how you see yourself like the Swedish part and the Swedish name?
Erik Herrström
Not so much actually to me. Don't think it's... I think it's important to be true to yourself. It's part of my story that I'm Swedish. But it's also part of my story that I've been moving around a lot. That I've been working with a lot of different cultures, working a lot with different brands of all different levels. And somehow that's also why we're trying to project to the world, right? That we have the experience like that. We're also 10 people right now in the company and everyone comes from different places, everyone has different backgrounds. And this is also what we're trying to do, right? We're trying to express different ways of tackling problems and coming up with solutions for our clients.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm. I've mentioned this a few times before, but now I'm going to ask you a question related to it. AI. How does that affect branding?
Erik Herrström
I think AI is just simply another tool, right? I think it's gonna help us a lot, just like when the computer came, right? It helped us do things much more, you know, quickly, better. The world has improved or like it became easier to do things, right? And I think AI is going to do the same. It's another tool. It's another advancement in technology. And a lot of things are going to get easier. A lot of things are going to be better for a lot of founders, a lot of companies in general, right? But in terms of brand, I truly believe that it's not as easy as just generating a brand. You need to really, really connect with whoever you're trying to speak to. It's not really enough, as unfortunately too many founders do, to just say that, we're targeting, let's say, women in Sweden over 45. Like, you could do that, but that's not actually real people, right? It's too big of a target group somehow. You really need to know this, like, very core of the
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
that you're trying to get to. To kind of make it clearer, like I know in a study from SoundCloud from 2022, they pointed out that in some of their artists' tools, etc., they figured out that 1.9 % of fans could actually make up for, I think, over 40 % of the revenue for an artist.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
Meaning that you have to pay a lot of attention to this most devoted fans and that goes for a brand as well. It goes for the ones that are going to be the long-term customers of yours and the ones that's really going to resonate, going to care, going to keep coming back and buying from you. That comes from getting to know those people in the real way and I really struggle to believe that's possible without authentic real conversations.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah.
Jakob Wredstrøm
You
Jakob Wredstrøm
That's so interesting. A small shout out, Mike was on the podcast who led that initiative at SoundCloud. So you go down to episode 30 or so, guys, then you can go listen to that. That's an incredibly interesting story. But that makes sense. So AI is not just automatically going to create a brand. But What are the downsides? Because one of the things that I see in myself is AI and content creation and the flooding is sort of now pushing me away from social media. I'm much more aware of my bullshit filter. And I feel like there's this over flooding of visually pleasing things going out there. That don't necessarily need to know how to navigate. Like what's your commentary on that? When everything suddenly starts to be easier to look nice, what is the strategic advantage you can have when you think about your brand?
Erik Herrström
Hmm.
Erik Herrström
I think it's amazing that things are starting to look nicer and nicer, right? That's just a good thing. I do think that we will get a little bit tired of some things like this. I think that's kind of like a trend somehow that there is this AI aesthetic somehow across a lot of different things. I saw a really interesting... comment on one trend that was actually going on a few months ago now. People did this kind of like toys of themselves. Were put into this... Yeah, don't know how to... Yeah, exactly. We talk about that AI is gonna change everything. It's gonna be easier to create the brand. It's gonna...
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah, remember those chat teams.
Erik Herrström
do everything for us. But at the same time, humans are very, simple in their way of thinking, right? And they all end up doing the same thing. So if you have the tool to end up creating this thing in AI, you will do it. And you might feel that you're doing something unique at the moment and something special. It's new to you. It's not special in the world. And I think very, very similar things are going to happen for lot of founders, a lot of tech companies in general. They're gonna generate their brands, they're gonna create something like that, because that could just have been a company's brand, right, to create these assets somehow.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
And what's bothering me a little bit about that in the sense of like, I wish I can help more founders to understand that the way of getting there with your own brand is not a matter of ticking a box and saying now we have a brand. The way of getting there with your own brand is really to create something that truly resonates with whoever you're. you're targeting or you're selling to or you're trying to connect with, right? First then you can say that you have accomplished something or accomplished a brand. To just have a brand out there doesn't really mean anything until it's actually connecting with culture and resonates with people.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
How do you measure those up against each other? Again, you guys just did a rebrand of Studio Hirsch from, and you have talked about both sides, about being true to who you are as a company and your expression, and then to the people you want to reach. How do you balance those two? How do you weigh up against each other? What's your thought process of doing that?
Erik Herrström
Very, very simply, when I speak to people, when I present our brand, I present what we do and the way we think, it's obvious to me when people resonate with what I present to them in sales, in conversations in general and just the way we tell our story. That is as simple as it is.
Jakob Wredstrøm
And is that putting something forth that you believe in and then you test it out and then if the response is maybe not amazing then you go and say, well I believe in this other thing as well and you test that out. Is that the process?
Erik Herrström
It always comes down to tweaking of course. I think that will always be the case You're never like done and done with a brand. It's always gonna evolve and if you believe that they can't then you're gonna be stuck in you're probably gonna be a dying dinosaur somehow, right?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Erik Herrström
And again, maybe think back about what we talked about when these massive companies that spends a lot of money on doing these tweaks to their brands, if it comes down to positioning, strategy, the way they market themselves, and maybe that little twist that's changing something within the logo, there's a bigger adjustment that happens because they want to improve the way they connect with their consumers, right?
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah.
Jakob Wredstrøm
One of the really interesting things about AI that has been sort of talked about for last few years that I've studied to doubt is the replacement of certain roles. You know, the first thing that people reacted to, copywriting is dead. I like writing. I'm very, very aware of words. I'm a tiny bit nerdy when it comes to these kind of things. And we have, I bless, we have four copywriters on our team. And I have one lead copywriter called Emmanuel. I have, when it comes to wording, I have a very big opinion, like how things are written. I'm not an expert, but I have an opinion. And we have a company statement like, how do we write stuff? For me, I don't know a about brand, but I know a lot about writing in tone of voice. That's what I'm really obsessed with right now. Writing is not easy. Tone of voice is not easy. And you know, I can put the same AI tools in the hands of my team and one writer is not gonna even compare to another writer when it comes to that. You know, and just like things like, need to, when I want to write, I need to go to quad and I need to go in my tone of voice setting in quad. And if I switch to chat, I'm gonna hate it. You know, these kinds of things that even the special tools need a lot of tweaking, very specific just to hit what I want. And this fallacy of like things being exchanged just because AI can do it, I've just started to doubt a lot. Like it's a tool and it's effectivization and I get all that. The intent and the continuity is not gone. If anything, it's just even more important. Is that what you see as well?
Erik Herrström
Yeah, for sure. And I mean, what you're describing is also like, let's say me as a designer, right? If I'm in, you know, to make it simple, if I had a pen and paper versus I was actually able to sit in a digital program that I always use. Like I wouldn't be able to get to the same result and I think that's the same thing with AI tools that you're describing as well It's different tools to help you to get to a good result that you like and the tone of voice is your brand that's the way you speak the way that you feel most true and You would probably hate for it to sound like the AI generated text That's not you right because whoever you're writing for too Needs to feel like it's coming from you
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah, and I think that's so interesting and it goes into branding. We're sort of closing this conversation because of the time and how much time people want to listen to us ramble as well. What is it that you see that music tech founders or tech brands in general are doing wrong? Like what are they missing?
Erik Herrström
Mm.
Erik Herrström
So I was recently at an event for tech founders. They were there to pitch themselves to investors and they all had these big ideas. They all had so much to say and they really wanted to create some type of change, right? They felt like they had an amazing idea. What unfortunately happened though is that a lot of them hadn't tested out how to tell their story. They hadn't connected for real with the people they're trying to sell to. So some of them were actually pitching keynote presentations where the visual side of things was not connected with the words they said. The writing on the slides was not connected to the way they spoke, the way that the visuals looked and the brand that they were trying to sell. And they hadn't really put in the time and effort to a like really work hard on their brand to make sure that they can tell the story but also to not be themselves right and really figure out how they as people and founders could actually connect with the people they're trying to do something for because they all had some great ideas, but it's really, really hard for, let's say, an investor to believe in you if there's multiple disconnects in the way that you try to sell your idea and sell the big USP, I suppose, of your business. And that is really the big issue right now. I see it more and more. To be honest, think that it could be better for many of those founders to just wait with a brand until it's time to invest in a brand. And somehow maybe those slides that they present to investors could just as well be blank pages with a few words or titles. That's their own words versus something that's disconnected.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Yeah, I really resonate with that. So basically what you're saying in simple words is the disconnect probably does more harm than good. And keeping it simple until you really have that defined, oftentimes actually creates the more trustworthy situation.
Erik Herrström
Yeah.
Erik Herrström
Exactly. Again, like as I was mentioning, there's so many brands in the music tech space that look the same. They don't tell their own story. They tell someone else's story and they try to look like the big players. That's not the way to truly connect and tell something unique, right? And just as real artists, right? They need to do something unique. They need to be different. They need to stand out in order to get people to connect with their brand.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Hmm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm. I think this is so important and I definitely see that is the challenge. Like for me, I haven't really approached this from a visual angle and obviously branding is so much more than that and I think oftentimes when we talk about brand, that's why I default. I guess that isn't branding just like that. That's a part of branding. But how do you think about brand first and foremost? Like what's your, what's your go-to understanding of brand? If I want to categorize it in visualization, tone of voice, all these categories, I might not know most of them. How would you think about it?
Erik Herrström
Yeah, for sure.
Erik Herrström
A brand is a feeling, just a feeling of what it does to you, what does it do to a consumer. I have an interesting little side note to this, a little side story if you don't mind if we have another minute.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Absolutely.
Erik Herrström
A few years ago, I was part of doing the rebranding of Elvis Presley. So Sony Music in New York reached out and yeah, was like I had to pinch myself. It was just before we closed down the offices of 2021. And it was a pitch actually. And they wanted something rather, rather fast, like a pitch idea of how to do it.
Jakob Wredstrøm
What?
Erik Herrström
And in order to do a rebranding of such an iconic artist, you kind of have to think about who are they actually trying to connect with? In this case, was a movie, a biopic, coming out about Elvis Presley in 2022. So we were going to do the rebranding of Elvis Presley, basically, because there was all this visual communication out there on all the different platforms, especially on YouTube. They really wanted to target and create something more unified because there was all this different looks, all these different expressions of Elvis Presley. So we did a lot of research trying to really look at everything that was out there from his career, right, and also the new things, trying to see like what is the uniqueness about Elvis. But the most important thing that I did in this work was that during that Christmas period, I actually spoke to all my family members. And I remember my grandmother, who is actually born just a few days apart from Elvis Presley himself. But she was born in Slovenia, actually. So not in the US, very far away from him. But she could express the feeling of when Elvis Presley's CD, or not CDs, when the music came to, not CDs at that time, but when Elvis Presley's music
Jakob Wredstrøm
You
Erik Herrström
was coming to Europe and how... She was like, yeah, I had a cousin's friend or something like this that managed to get the music from Italy because that was a bigger market. The music was shipped there somehow and they managed to get hold of the music that way and got to experience this big thing that everyone was talking about and this thing that they have heard. And it was kind of like this feeling of who Elvis Presley was and how impactful he was and how he changed everything within the space. And at the same time, as I was talking to my grandmother, I also spoke to my brother and my cousin who were also like big fans in different ways. They were much, much younger, but they all had different feelings from it. And then I started to explore different ways of doing things. And I figured out that in 1968, the Kompaktor's logotype, this very like blocky logotype that Elvis had behind him when he performed live at the Kompaktor, that was very unique to him. And it's something that many people felt was very specific to Elvis. So we used this as a base, we redrew it, created a full name and a dynamic logo lockup, and then connected it with adaptive color systems. And then we created posters that were inspired by music posters and movie posters from the 1950s and the 1960s, and then brought it into animation, and tried to create something that was very, very special for Elvis. And most importantly, whenever we were ready in order to pitch it to Sony Music, I tested it towards my test group in this case, right? And they all felt like this was kind of resonating with them. And we managed to win the pitch and did the new visual identity for Elvis Presley.
Jakob Wredstrøm
I think that's a perfect analogy to end on because I think if there's something I've never thought about brand is feeling across many different people. And I've understood brand very much about personal expression and never really looked at it from the recipient's end, which makes perfect sense when you talk about it. And the outcome that I wanted from today from my own angle, which was also what I disclaimed that I wanted from this talk, is understand how I go about my next step. Because I don't feel like I have that much clarity, let's say from a visual perspective, of what I want. But I do have a pretty good understanding of what I feel, and I can also approach how other people feel. And maybe that should be my guiding light in this next exploration rather than in textualize it, rather than rely on my very limited skills and references and visualization. Maybe that feeling would be my guiding point in where I go about my own brand. Is that a good way to go about it?
Erik Herrström
I think so. Think the right way is really to test it out. Like actually speak to people that you know could be partners or consumers of your brand. Like see how it works. You know, it's probably friends or maybe past clients that you can run it by. Ask them if they understand what you're trying to say and if it feels authentic to them.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Mm.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Amazing. That is what I'll do. Eric, we covered almost all our talking points. I appreciate so much taking you so much time. And I am so happy that I got this talk because I think I know what to do next. But Eric, thank you for joining the podcast and we'll talk soon.
Erik Herrström
Thank you for having me. Was really great to chat. Yeah, have a good day.
Jakob Wredstrøm
Thanks.
