Artist Development and Music Business Strategies

I think an entrepreneur knows they're an entrepreneur. And while the journey of an artist is similar in some ways, I don't think that they know that they are. They don't categorize themselves as that. But an entrepreneur, though, is often trying to build something that maybe fills a void in the market. And historically, artists have just been like, I'm just going to build it and they will come. I'm going to make something amazing. And then the strategy is hope. I had a great talk with Patrick about artists, about how artists will use our products in the future, how they think, how they act.

Freely try to understand them. And what I realized is after 50 episodes on the Sound Connections podcast, I haven't deep-died into artists. How weird when they are the bedrock of everything we do. Hey, guys, and welcome back to the Sound Connections podcast. Today we have an amazing guest, Patrick Aramlick. Welcome. Hey, how are you, Jacob? We spoke a couple of months ago and you have had an amazing career. One of the things that you do is that you know a lot about artists and you work a lot with artists that have done successfully for many, many years.

And for this podcast, artists are obviously the bedrock of what we do. And we need to have conversations about that. And we haven't had that many on the podcast, actually. So I'm very excited to talk about your career, your work with artists and how that aspect of running a business and understanding the business from that viewpoint is. But Patrick, for the viewers who don't know who you are, could you explain who you are and what you do? Absolutely. So I consider myself an artist guide above all.

What that actually is, is I'm a consultant and a coach for artists. And I think the cleanest way to say what I do now is that I develop artists both personally and professionally. I also do business consultation, but most of my work is centered around artists. This is my bread and butter since, I don't know, it's been 24 years in the music business now. So that's my bread and butter. You know, I started in the studio business. So I come from like a studio management and recording, like engineering and producing background.

And I know we'll get into all this, but I jumped into having an indie label and artist management and PR. I spent a lot of time in the PR world as well. So I feel like I've had multiple careers in the music business thus far. But what I'm doing at this point is really coaching and consulting artists on their career development. A lot of times that is matchmaking. Like I'm pairing them with the right personnel to either make their dream record or put a really good marketing plan together.

A lot of the work has nothing to do with music, right? It's helping them overcome limiting beliefs or unraveling stories that they've been carrying around with them that are no longer serving them, right? Or just being a champion for them and really putting them on a pathway that is under their control and that they feel like they have some sort of agency over their career. I focus very little on genre of music or my opinion.

I'm really trying to listen to the artists and help them articulate whatever their vision might be and get a really crystal clear aim. And then we continue to build a map of how to achieve that and make it as high res as possible. So that's what I do. Amazing. We need to go into your journey and you do speak like a real producer for people who know the podcast. I have a master's in music production. Not that I do that much anymore, but I understand that world and I appreciate it so much.

But when I Google your name, some pretty big artist names are also associated to it. So I'm very interested to understand the journey there, but we'll start at that start. Okay. So you ran a studio, but you probably came into music a tiny bit before that. Well, yeah. I mean, as far back as I can recall, I mean, I grew up inside of a small business. So I think for the founder audience here, a lot of people can probably relate where they maybe even they grew up in a family business or grew up around a business.

So I grew up in a small business. My parents ran a bed and breakfast. My mother still does. You know, she's 90 and still runs it. So like I, yeah. So I come from an entrepreneurial family. Like I literally didn't know anything else. You know, my mom was taking phone calls and making sales and booking people all day long. Like that was what I overheard where conversations of her taking a wrong number and flipping it into a reservation, right? That was her thing. You know, she could book anyone who, you know, didn't call for that purpose.

So I grew up around that spirit of building something and hustling for it and making something out of nothing. My parents were really great at that, of creating the life they wanted to have out of nothing. You know, they both came from nothing and developed that. So they grew a successful business there. And then both my parents were musical. Like my mother was a professional singer and my father was like an amateur singer and musician.

And they were both opera singers. So they both also were some of the original co-founders of a community organization that grew into a multi-million dollar opera company in upstate New York that still exists today. So I grew up around entrepreneurship and music. And my older brother was like a rock and roll drummer. So I had, you know, rock and roll and classical music and opera around the house at all times and the sort of spirit of entrepreneurship 24-7. So I was predestined to do this, I guess.

I don't know what else I would have done. And I just, that was the environment. I didn't know anything different. So when I went off to college, I went for music business. And I did four years at Northeastern. It was sort of going into my last year. And I was like, I just, I don't love music business. I'm done with this after grinding on it for four years. And then I went to school in Arizona for producing and engineering at a conservatory there. And I was like, oh, I love this. I love pushing faders and twisting knobs and, you know, making music.

And I love this. I'm really good at this. You know, I went from being an underachieving sort of B, B minus student in music business just because I was young and didn't believe in myself yet to like top of my class in recording and engineering. So I learned to break up the story about myself that I was carrying along with me. All of a sudden I was like, oh, well, I actually can be good at something. And I'm like, oh, I want to do this as a career. So coming out of school, I had a good placement program and I got an internship at a recording studio in New York called The Cutting Room that had the same console that I trained on at school.

So I was like, oh, this is going to be a great fit. I'm going to be seamlessly get into there. I'm going to start making money and start making records. Obviously that's not how that works. So I came in with like a cohort of assistant engineer types all vying for an engineering position that wasn't going to open, you know? It was a classic recording studio story back then. I mean, like the engineer would have had to die for me to get that job, you know? That was just not going to happen. So I think this is an important note for entrepreneurs and it's to just sort of try to evaluate your own skill set and really understand what pieces of business you're good at and then keep your eyes open.

So like I had tunnel vision on engineering and producing and I started doing that professionally and then I saw the people at the top of the game who I got to work with. I got to assist them on sessions and I got to see what that looked like and what their lifestyle looked like and they were all pretty much men at that point. Unhealthy, divorced, unhappy. And I was like, I don't know if that's the life for me and as much as it was fun in school it didn't show up the same way when people were paying a lot of money per hour like it was pressure and that was the music industry that wasn't the nice one.

It was the rough music industry that I came into where if you messed up once you were fired type of industry. But I kept my eyes open and I was like, what? Okay, I like that. I don't love it. I like it. And at that point you had to do it for a living. You really had to be all in. You had to be like 150% to stand out and to make your way through. There was only a certain amount of people who were doing really well at that job.

So I wasn't 100%. I was like 75. And I had to be honest about that. But I took a look around and I'm like, wait a second. There's five, six of us vying for a position that's not going to come open. I'm doing an unpaid internship in New York City. What else am I good at? And I'm like, oh, well, I grew up in hospitality. There's a studio manager here, right?

And what is that person doing? Oh, they're sort of managing the schedule, taking care of the clients who come in, managing personalities and sometimes difficult situations. There's a central hub of all communication going into the studio. So the record labels call that person. The artists call that person. It has a salary. It's nine to six hour-wise. It has health insurance. That sounds like a pretty good deal, you know?

So I... That job wasn't available either. But I could tell that it was going to be. I'll leave it. I'll leave it. I'll leave it at that. So I just aligned myself to be the only choice for that. While everyone else had tunnel vision on engineering, I was like, I'm going to just start acting the part of the studio manager. I'm just going to be a host and I'm just going to take care of everybody. And I don't know. After six months of doing that, I started having like record label people would call the studio and ask for me.

And I was the intern. And I think the studio owner was like, why are they asking for you? You know, and not the actual studio manager. So, you know, it was really interesting to act the part and then be seen as that part. Then when the position came available, there wasn't any other choice. So I got into that and I was managing that for a while. You know, I sort of produced and engineered on the side, but managed it. And I did that for a long time. We moved locations, rebuilt the studio.

And it was, I mean, it was awesome. It was a really challenging job. A lot of major artists I got to work with there. Like one of my favorite memories was Studio A had the Red Hot Chili Peppers in it. And Studio B had Run DMC in it. And that was a great day. You know, and I brought Run DMC in to meet Chili Peppers because they had met. And connected them. And then they, Run DMC did a clap track on the Chili Peppers song that they were recording. So it was really cool.

So I got to meet a lot of amazing artists and they would call me and the record labels would call me. So it's how I developed my professional network. Yeah, and then, you know, I was doing that and that's not a lifer job. So I probably did it, to be fair, I probably did it two years too long. Just because I didn't have clarity on what my next move was going to be. So the last two years I was like one foot in, one foot out. Which probably wasn't great for the studio. And it wasn't great for the next thing I was building.

And it wasn't great for anybody involved in my family either. You know, it was like working double time and no one was happy. So, but took a leap of faith with a business partner who I'd built a relationship with in producing. And we started a little indie label naively. Assigned some artists to that. Went broke funding them. And marketing them because we were just like dumping whatever we had into it out of passion and not out of good business sense, I think.

And learned a lot of lessons and then we sort of stumbled into being a PR agency. We hired a publicist for the label because we ran out of money hiring PR agencies and sort of absorbed her clientele. And then because we had those, we sort of magnified more. So we were like an indie label with a PR roster. It was sort of weird. And we were like in this weird limbo. But we were like, well, we make money from the PR, but we don't from the label.

So we just pivoted. And I found, all of a sudden I found myself running a PR agency, which I knew nothing about PR. And other than I had hired them before. So I sort of knew what they were supposed to do at least. And, you know, we just did it. We really took off. I mean, we went from like six clients to like 140 clients in three years or something. Wow. But it was 2008. So it was a terrible time economically. Everyone was like, you're crazy. What are you doing? Leaving your job and starting this other thing.

But I think it worked because we undercharged and we over delivered. So it wasn't really sustainable doing that, but that's how we built it at the beginning anyway. I mean, we did everything and we tried to do it as fast as possible and give as much value as possible and charge half or a third of what the competition was charging. And we cleaned house, you know, and then we got bigger and more powerful and made a bunch of mistakes doing that and probably got bloated and oversized.

I think at our peak, we were maybe 38 total people, but we had two offices, one in New York, one in L.A., which was like I never even went to the L.A. office, you know, it's just sort of a wild, it was just sort of a wild time. And then, yeah, we did that up until the pandemic and then we sort of merged with a larger company in an acquisition. My employment agreement was for a two-year period for renewal and that just ended in November.

So now I'm out and a free agent and sort of coming back to my roots, I'm working closely with artists, which I have that whole run. I was working with artists as well and coaching them and consulting them and listening to their pain points and trying to support them through it. Even if it wasn't always official, I was doing that. Anybody who knows me knows that this is probably the most natural thing for me to be doing what I'm doing now. And this is a real passion for me because I really get to help people. And I don't know what I'll do next.

We'll see where it goes. Interesting. Well, there's a lot of things to break down because it's a 24-year career told in a few minutes. But I'm curious because I want to go into some comparisons and some thoughts. One of the things that I often do, and it might be wrong, but I think I'm right, is compare artists to entrepreneurs. There's very much similarities in what it costs from a personal standpoint. Maybe not how you scale a business or anything.

What do you think about that statement that there's close similarities between those two? I think an entrepreneur knows they're an entrepreneur. And while the journey of an artist is similar in some ways, I don't think that they know that they are. They don't categorize themselves as that. But an entrepreneur, though, is often trying to build something that maybe fills a void in the market. And is thinking about it from a business perspective, like, early.

And I don't really know if artists are doing that. You know, they're following passion. And historically, artists have just been like, I'm just going to build it and they will come. I'm just, I'm going to make something amazing. And the strategy is hope. You know, there's not like business principles put into the growth arc of an artist, especially when they're on their own. Oftentimes, it's the last thing they're thinking about. They're like, if you asked 70% of artists what they spent in 2023 on their music, then you probably couldn't get an answer.

They're just not thinking about that. But I do think it's changing. I think that your statement is probably going to be way more accurate a year from now. I do think financial literacy is starting to be common discussion now. And they're starting to think about, like, because you see, I mean, the music business is in upheaval right now. And I think a lot of artists are going, wait a second. Maybe there's a better way to do this. Maybe hope alone isn't a great strategy.

So, yeah, there are parts of, like, the, obviously, passion, fighting for what you believe in, hustling, making connections, throwing your heart and soul into something, being unreasonable, being wildly irrational, taking risk. Like, all of those components are a really good match for entrepreneurship. But I don't think artists think of themselves all the time, like, I am an entrepreneur. That means I have to build something and I have to be really smart and I have to put good business practice and I have to be organized and disciplined and focused.

I don't, I'm not sure that's how they're thinking about it. I think it's more easy for us, guys like us, to look at artists and see those connections. But I don't know if they always see it. I have a question. And I know it's not one size fits all. But, like, do you believe not having the business focus is a good thing for the art in general? And that having too much of a business strategy would compromise the art?

I mean, I think that conflict that happens when we talk about that comes from us knowing a different music business. Like, the bands or the artists I loved growing up, I know weren't thinking about that. I mean, they didn't have social media. Everything they did was in private until it was, like, a performance or a video. I mean, they'd make their records in private for a year or two years.

They wouldn't be seen at all. So it was, like, an entirely different ecosystem. And I think when we look at those artists, we go, well, I'm sure they weren't using QuickBooks and, like, tracking their finances all the time. They were, it was a rock band or whatever. Of course they weren't doing that. So I think when we think about it in a historical context, we go, it probably would have been, I don't know if Alice in Chains could have done the dirt record if they were all, like, hyper-organized and disciplined and business-savvy.

They were on heroin doing it. I mean, there's no, so, but when you talk about artists in 2024 and moving forward, you really got to let go of everything from the past. And nowadays I think it's different. I think it becomes, it becomes a requirement either for the artist to do it or someone in the artist's camp to do it. I've been talking a lot about this in terms of when that, what's the threshold of when an artist should start doing that? And I've been talking to some of my colleagues about that.

And the rough consensus is approximately this. When an artist is developed to the point where, let's say it's an artist or a band, where they are starting to get feedback from listeners that, that they're becoming well-liked, like they're getting really positive feedback in a way that's not just their friends. And then they're on the cusp of earning some relatively significant income, whether it's residual income is about to come in or they're going to get a sink or they're going to get paid for a big show or there's some sort of revenue that's about to come in or that they can perceive is about to come in on the horizon.

That's probably the time, that's probably this crux where you go, okay, let's professionalize this and start getting this locked down so that we don't have a mess on our hands and we don't talk about where the money goes when it drops in our lap. We have this conversation in advance. But I think if you do it from the very beginning, you do lose a little bit of the spirit of the project and you get too serious too soon, you know, it doesn't really help to get an LLC and get all serious if you're a garage band and you've written three songs and they all are terrible.

Like, you're getting all dressed up with nowhere to go. So I do think there's like a developmental threshold where the art needs to be balanced with business. Now, there doesn't have to be the writer who feels like they're in conflict when they go into that headspace. You can have a business manager or there are certainly tools available, more and more tools available coming online that help you manage that stuff and don't make it so much work, right?

And I think this talk also gets really, really interesting when you come into the talk of the superfan economy or monetization through platforms and services and engagement with fans. And, you know, some of the discussions I've had is like, well, artists aren't, you know, prepared and positioned to do anything but music and what they're known to do. And one of the things that I'm curious to know is like, if there's a new generation that is more prepared to think about alternative revenue sources and have that as an integral part of their art and their artistry.

What do you think about that with relationship to the superfan economy or the engagement monetization? I think, I mean, I think in a lot of ways, a lot of artists are still coming online to the standard ways that they earn. As opposed to alternative income, like the standard ones are still confusing to a lot of artists. Yeah. I don't know. I think you, I think you, I think the alternative income side is something that, again, it's like, I'm very weary of giving advice to artists all the time or like across all artists as a general advice, especially when it tips to anything in the, in the financial realm or marketing realm, because it's so specific to the artist.

It's hard to give blanket advice. I do give blanket advice, but it tends to be more in the headspace and mindset and, um, overall developmental way of looking at your career. Cause that, that you can cross artists with that, but this is a conversation that I think you need to get to some sort of demel developmental milestone before the conversation has relevance. I don't even know exactly where that is, but there's, cause it's a moving target a little bit, but I, I think you have to, you have to have an infrastructure in place.

You have to understand the foundational places that you earn, and then you can explore the sort of alternative, alternative income conversation a bit, but I, you know, it's, this is an overwhelming business for artists, even, even without all the new developments. So, and I, and I, and I, and I understand that, uh, one of the, the reason why I'm, why I'm asking is there's a lot of entrepreneurs pursuing this aspect of the business.

And one of the things that I'm worried about is, well, you're building a product for artists, are artists receptive to your business? Um, what's your. Yeah. It's a really good point. Can you. I have a comment on that. I have a comment on that too, if I may. Go, go for it. Go for it. Artists have enough already. There's like enough. There is too many things that they have to keep track of. You know, even a decade ago, there was like, it was overwhelming the amount that they have to do.

Um, I, I worry about the same thing. I worry that there's not enough products being developed that towards the consumer that are for the benefit of the artist. A lot of products being made for the artist, uh, is something else that they have to subscribe to. Cause there is a lot of them and they keep regenerating. You know, there are this, so many artists come online every year. They're just like, they're a good market to market to because there's so many and there's, they're always replicating.

Um, and they're always willing to put some, some sort of finance or some sort of capital into their, into themselves. Um, but I'm, I worry more about like the consumers because. Try, trying to build something that shifts the way consumers look at musicians and art, I think is the more valuable thing to build so that the artists are taken care of. Right. And that they, I'm, I'm waiting for more and more platforms to get built. And I think that they are, you know, I've met a lot of great people building things for artists or that, that have the right intention and they're actually doing it for the health of the artist.

And that's, that's nice to see that being made. I think there's a lot of startups with that in mind, which is probably the first time in history that's a priority, which is really good, which is really good to see. But yeah, I worry about, I worry about the public and, and how they value music, you know, more so. Could, could you be, without going into specific companies and solutions, could, could you be a bit practical and maybe give some examples of what that might be where you're not putting an extra stain of the artist, but do you're presenting the consumers with a better, whatever, uh, engagement opportunities?

I mean, what could that be? I don't know. I don't know. You know, I think there's, there's two that I've noticed in the last like six months really at that, um, one on the, one that's for the artist, which, which is Mogul. Um, I don't know if you know Jeff at Mogul, but I love that concept where it's like, yeah, it's like, here's all your financial data across time and here's suggestions and here's where you're not getting paid anymore and you probably should be. And it's, I, I was talking to them about that product and I'm like, this is the thing that, and that artists don't know they, that, that they need.

Yeah. And once they know they need it, they're not sure they want it because it's, it's really giving it in your face, like clarity around money. Too depressive. Yeah. Well, it can be, but I think that in the short term, yes, but in the, at the macro level, that's good. It's like, it's like having a huge tax debt. You need to know the number and deal with it. That's the only way you're going to get, you know, the only way you're going to get clean on it. You can't hide from it forever.

So I think for artists, this, this idea of, I don't even want to look, I don't even want to know because my self-worth is in those numbers. And I think if they can start looking at it going, wait a second. Okay. Let me stink like an entrepreneur. Is this working? Where are the holes? Oh, you know what? I didn't even know I was supposed to be earning money there. I didn't even know I had money over here sitting in my sound exchange account, like being present to it and being aware and being responsible for it is healthy.

It just sucks at first, but it's going to, but when you do, you're going to start making different decisions. And I think that's healthy for all, for all artists. So I love that product. I think that's a, that's great. And then there's this platform called even, which I'm got my eye on. I liked what they're doing there. It's sort of not, not in place of streaming platforms, but it's before streaming platforms. So like really bringing your audience into there and exclusive listening in advance of it being available nationally and having your, your fan base pay 25 bucks, 30 bucks for access to that and monetizing that and actually making money on it.

As opposed to relying on the, the pennies. So I think that's a really good consumer and artist solution, but getting, getting consumers to adopt new habits and platforms that is really tough. That's a really big mountain to climb, but, um, I don't know. I don't know what the ultimate solution is yet. I don't know what it is yet. No, but it's an interesting talk because, you know, and by the way, uh, Jeff has been on the podcast. So if anyone wants to listen to that, um, but it's a really interesting conversation about, you know, for example, in the case of even with pre-listing an album, like this is products they've already made, right?

Yeah. You know, this is, this is not necessarily an extra, extra layer of products they need to do. Um, and, and what I hear you saying is, um, artists, um, might be, uh, more and more so in the future, uh, ready to think about alternative income sources. But currently there's just so much to still cover, uh, in the primary income sources that, um, there might be a gap between entrepreneurs assumptions of what artists needs and wants from new alternative revenue sources, um, and what, what they actually can, can take it.

Totally. I talk about this a lot. It's like, I think that it's starting to happen, but something that our entrepreneurs miss when they make things for artists is that like. Artists are, are the victim of like their own mimetic desires, right? So they, artists in general, as a community want certain things. They want to be positively judged against their peers.

You know, they want to have more numbers than their friends who also do that, right? They want, they want their music and TV and film as a moving target. Sometimes it was Facebook followers. Then it was, you know, whatever playlist inclusion that it was, you know, Instagram followers, then it's engagement, then it's TikTok, then it's whatever it may be. It's a moving target, but, um, take the playlisting for example. Like there was a fever pitch of that in the, whatever, between probably 2016 and 2021, maybe, uh, that's what I want.

I want to be on playlists and that's how I'm judged against my peers. And then Spotify wrapped comes out, which just is, I think, well-meaning, but dreadful for most artists to like, wait a second. I, now I'm supposed to post how I did compared to, uh, this feels terrible. You know, I've got 13,000 listens that I worked really hard for. That's a good number, but my friend used bot playlists and has a million and I know they're not real, but I still, you know, there's, there's this like, yeah.

These mimetic desires that drive a lot of the behavior of artists, but I do think it's starting to move with these conversations we're having where artists are going to start to go, wait a second. My desire is to actually do this in a really smart way and build a community of fans that I control that isn't for rent on a platform and make a really good living and perform when I want.

Based upon the data in a way that's smart, like go to where my listeners are and do this really, really creative, smart way. And I don't have to be famous and I can tour and do really well financially and have a family and have anonymity. And that's, Ooh, I want that. I think, I think more and more artists are thinking that way. They might have a little bit of hangover of the mimetic desire of like, I want to be signed to a label just because they're conditioned to it. It's habitual to think about things.

It's habitual to be, to want to be chosen. Right. And it's a, it's a mimetic desire to want to be chosen and scooped up. Like that's built into the fabric of the music industry. A person was discovered and like pulled out of obscurity. And now they're, you know, like, so artists have this hanging around, like that could be me. I want that to be me. I'm just going to wait around until it is me. But I think, I do, I do think that's changing. Do you think, um, this is my own maybe incorrect assumptions and I'm going to take myself as an example.

I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm very creative and I am a business guy now. But that is, uh, more because I lacked enough challenges, stimulation from being entirely creative. Uh, like, and not to sort of make that less of anything, but being creative is, um, it's very much, uh, how I perceive it. At least like really self-discovery and at one point for me, it was like, okay, I need to get out of my comfort zone.

And that's sort of when I started doing business that, that was not my point. But my point is that doing the transition from being creative and in contact with your emotions and the storytelling, and then to this business acumen, this, this often time a really big gap and a discomfort moving in between those. And, and a lot of the artists that I know, both big and small, um, have not developed those skills because of that discomfort of that gap. Got it.

Is that an actual problem that you see recurring or is this is my observations? I don't know if it's a, I don't know. I don't know if it's a problem. Again, I think these conversations are new. You know, I'm the conversations about, about money and about building, building an artist's career as a business for, for someone who's talked to artists every day for 20 years are new conversations. These aren't like really new and in a lot of ways, like January new.

You know, it's like, I just wasn't on the mind. So I don't know. I just, I think these are just, um, obviously I've, I've met artists who have had good business and so I've been hustlers and who have thought about this, but it's been, it's been such a small percentage as to not even be worth discussing. But, um, I, I do think it's a, it's a necessary skill and I think all the information is there now for people to be able to do it and close that gap a lot quicker. I mean, there's not much that you can't find out how to do on 10 hours of YouTube deep diving.

You know, there's not, not a whole lot that you can't figure out relatively quickly. So I think as artists make this transition from their desire being to be, to be chosen, which will always be there to a degree. And they switch over the desire to like having a life that, that is, that is awesome as an artist, but on their terms, I think, I think they'll, they'll shorten that gap and like get into it and make it happen. I think the conversations with artists are going to be a lot smarter in the next year or two in terms of financial literacy and responsibility in that regard and entrepreneurship.

I think it's going to, the gap's going to like that. Yeah. One of my assumptions, and again, I'm, so you can reveal experts, so I'm just going to throw my assumption out there and try to bounce off you, is that the same way you would say that a younger artists that have grown up with social media, you know, not too far away from TikTok would be, feel natural, more natural for them to be on TikTok than people who didn't grow up. Sure. To bring the same assumption to sort of the financial aspects, if, if being an artist is more spoken about having sustainable careers and understanding how to make money and how to engage with, with fans, there's going to be a generation of people who are more naturally going to be using that.

No doubt. Do you believe that? Of course. That to be true? Yeah, yeah. Because they won't know any different. Right. I mean, just like, like personal finance and personal investing. I mean, when did that really come online in terms of the public consciousness and podcasts related to that? It's really been a lot in the last like seven, eight years, something like that of really being like culturally something. I mean, for any way here in the United States, it's, it's normal to talk about that stuff now. And it wasn't. So yeah, for new artists, they won't know any different.

They're going to come in with, you know, all these different tools and looking at it from an entirely different lens. For sure. And taking that argument back to entrepreneurs building companies, what I can draw from assumptions is also there might be great founders building great platforms for an assist group that maybe doesn't exist yet. Because they're part of the education aspect, if that makes sense. So, so the services they provide that might have a great product market fit might just not be now, but in three years when.

No doubt. To start responding to the concepts that they're building. Totally. It's tough. It's tough for artists. If you look at an artist, like an entrepreneur building their own business, it's tricky because what's implied in that is that like, they just need to apply these different principles and it will work and they'll have a business. Their product is music. You know, the product is music and all the different ways it's delivered, but there's no scarcity of that product. So, you as an entrepreneur probably wouldn't go, oh, let me go where there's zero scarcity and like zero demand for what I'm doing as someone who's new.

Let me go build a business there. You know, you probably wouldn't do that. It is tricky. It is tricky for artists. In that sense, you do have to build demand for it and that's like not a given at all. Now, there's luckily not 11 million entrepreneurs in the music industry. That would be difficult. Yeah. We wouldn't be on this call probably. Okay. That's interesting. But tell me a bit about the structures that probably should be in place or typically is in place for an artist to thrive from the business side.

You talked about management at one point. But when you have, referring to what you said around 15, 20 minutes ago, when you have this artist that's sort of at the brink of having this very positive feedback and there might be some money opportunities coming in, how would they structure themselves or the team around them in order to be able to take that next step? Well, if they're sort of going to stay in the solopreneur realm, they're usually forming a DBA or an LLC or something like that.

That's most common. For an artist that's taking off at a little bit of a higher level, I think hiring a business manager is what the next step is. They sort of, instead of trying to absorb all of that information and trying to figure it out all on your own, I think it's an early team member that gets added. So it's like a business manager who sort of handles all of that and handles all the finances and all the tracking and budgeting and all of that.

And I think that's a good early team member, especially if you're going to have like a big nonlinear growth or situation like that coming in. Like if you were an artist who blew up on TikTok and all of a sudden you're getting emails from every label, right? And you're having conversations and you're like, oh shit, I don't even have a manager. My friend's going to act as my manager. And you're trying to figure it out, trying to get the best deal. A business manager is usually a component that can be added to that can help through that and deal with the finances.

So it's like, I don't, I don't think most artists just absorb the impact of, of that themselves and try to figure it out. I don't think most do that. They just get, they just add personnel. The team starts to build. This might be a terminology question, but I think it's a very interesting observation nonetheless. When I've been talking about this position you're talking about, I've been using the word or people around me have been using the word artist manager. But how I also sort of associate that word is that it's a person that helps break a career with what you're referring to as a business manager, as a person who's trying to navigate the business aspects of what the artist is already bringing in or the opportunities presenting itself.

Could you dissect those two and see if there is a difference in how those positions might differ? Typical music business, right? Everything is blurred. You know, some artists, some artists managers are, are also the publicists. Some artists managers are also the business manager, right? Sometimes an artist manager, yeah, their sole job is to oversee the overall development of that artist and upstream them, right? Is to put them with the right team members and build team members and get them the best deal because that's probably how the artist, the manager is going to earn, right?

And so they have a, an artist manager has a different agenda in mind, right? Their financial benefit of being the artist manager is going to be based upon what doors they open and kick open and what deals they put into place, right? So they're very motivated in a very specific way, whereas a business manager is probably going to be, depending on the size of the artist, they could be salaried, but they're going to be a contractor. And they're going to be someone who is not motivated by upside. So I think that there's, that's the, that's the distinction, but sometimes they will overlap.

You know, this business is full of contradictions. So you're going to say it's this way, and then you're going to easily find examples where it's not. But in a general sense, I think that's, that's the way it's falling most of the time. Very rare that I ever talk to a business manager because they're, they're less out front with the artists. They're not the ones who are the voice of the project. That's usually the artist manager, business managers, handling deals and handling contracts and handling, and that can be an attorney acting as a business manager.

There's, you know, these gray areas and blending of job descriptions that's, that's sort of rampant all over the music business. It's not always clear cut. Yeah. So, so if, if you were to, um, predict the future, I'm asking a lot. Predict the future. Predict the future. Wow. Of, of how, of how artists are going to, uh, adopt to this, uh, assumed super fan economy.

How would that be? How are they going to sort of, uh, the most realistic way engage with artists, uh, with fans, uh, so the music industry can make more money and they can make more money. I mean, I don't know. I, I tried to zoom out and look back at my career and all the different changes and how everybody freaked out over all, all the previous changes. And there were, there have been some through lines that have existed through every version of the music business I've lived through that haven't changed.

Um, so I think in some ways it's, it's same as it ever was. It's just, there's like this illusion on the surface that everything's different. Whereas underneath everything's exactly the same. It's like, you have to be really good at your craft and we might talk about this a little bit later in terms of first principles, but you have to be really good at your craft and you have to put in insane amount of time on task into it.

And then other people need to, need to echo that sentiment and then there needs to be demand for what you do. And then you need to engage and hold those who are demanding what you do and monetize them and keep evolving and growing and pivoting like a business would. That's always been the case, no matter what's been on the surface, TikTok or MySpace or, you know, whatever, um, the trends come and go and that, that piece is underneath there.

So I think that will continue how it's dressed up on the surface will continue to move around. Um, but I, I do, I do think there's, there is going to be a, for a little while anyway, this sort of split, um, this division in the music industry where there's all these new things happening and there's, there's a super fan economy. And there's going to be artists who are really into that and really utilizing the AI and all the different mechanisms that are in place for the, these new and exciting platforms that are launching.

And then there's going to be like another section of artists that are maybe doing things traditionally because they're, they're either slow to adapt to that or they just don't want to play in that sandbox. So you're going to get people who are super adaptive to that, probably the younger ones who are diving into it and don't care. They, they're not tied to some old model. So they're just diving in. I think there'll be a split, split business for a little while. It's just what usually happens. Like new things come in and there's early adopters.

And then the people who just like, I don't understand what that is. I don't want to do it. Like everyone, every artist who told me, I don't know what's this TikTok thing. I'm not doing that or I'm doing it now. So I don't know. You know, I think, um, it'll be same as it ever was with a, a different, different wrapping paper on the outside. Um, I think that's, that's what I expect. I try to look at it through that. So I don't get, I don't get caught up in it or, or disempowered in it myself, you know, cause I like, you know, you, if you've been in the, if you've been in the music business for 24 years, you've developed expertise, right?

Yeah. And you don't want to lose that expertise because of new developments. And I think as an artist, you're coming up and you're like, well, I'm just starting to get good. You know, I put 12 years into this. Now I'm just really starting to get good with writing songs and making music and making recordings and my fan base is building. And I spent six years developing my Instagram and I've spent three years developing my TikTok and like, I feel like in a pretty good place, whatever's next. I don't want to do that. I, I just getting good at this.

I don't want to go explore the next thing. So I think the, the immediate future will look like more is the same and same as it ever was. Right. Where like, like AI, you know, it's the same thing that's happening right now. It's like, I don't want to touch that. I don't want to put a prompt in and hear a song created. I don't even want to look. Um, and then, you know, 12 months from now, they'll be using it for songwriting help. Yeah. But one of the interesting takeaways I have from this talk, um, thus far is sort of the, that there might be a, um, delayed reaction to the work that's being done with innovative solutions and entrepreneurs need to keep, keep that in mind.

Um, but, but we've already been going on for a while. So, so I do want to go into what you touch upon with artists first, uh, and can you break that down for me, that concept? Uh, like first principles. Yeah. First principle. Yeah. Sorry. Right. So it's like, you know, it's the act of boiling something down to its most fundamental truth and then building from there. That's well known in business. So I think entrepreneurs know this, right? And instead of telling yourself a story, you go back to what are, what are the first principles thinking?

Let me, what is the thing that we know to be true? Um, and I do this work with artists too, because I, this is one way that you can eliminate some of that memetic desire and, um, not just be, just be on the hamster wheel of the music industry. Like you got to go back to first principles. So in every artist, I encourage them to make their own. I think that there are some that cross across like all artists. It's like a first principle would be, um, for example, uh, like a, a commitment to your craft and time on task at that is self-evidently good.

Yeah. You could call that a first principle. Like there were, there are no downsides sides to a commitment to your craft, whether it's business or music. And then with the commitment comes an excessive amount of time on task. That is self-evidently good as a starting point. And I think a lot of artists can miss that, right? They can, and in business, people can miss that too, where founders can miss that, where it's like, you know, it actually takes a lot of time and commitment.

Like, to be really good at what you do, maybe, you know, maybe in an hour writing, writing songs for an hour a day will mean in five years, you'll be a pretty good songwriter. Whereas five hours a day for the next five years means you are amazing and undeniably great. So I think that would be a first principle that could cross all artists, no matter the level of development.

So that's what I, that's what I mean by that. Right. And it's like, I also look back at my career and I go, oh, wow. You know, the, another one would be like the opportunities that present themselves to you as an artist are, are direct reflection of the quality and the depth of your relationships and network. I would call that a first principle. A quality network that has depth to it, meaning those relationships are authentic and meaningful.

I guess you could say the quantity too, right? You have a wide enough network that tends to be one of the key factors in me looking back that, that generates opportunity for you. But if your network is thin and shallow, that's going to be, that's going to reflect a certain types of opportunities or lack thereof as well. So I would call that a first principle too. So quality, quality relationships and depth of network is a, is a fundamental first, first principle that is, that provides great opportunity.

And, you know, I think that's undeniable. So those are two that if you just focused on those, I think you do really well as an artist. Right. Another, another might be no opportunity. None is worth the loss of your self-respect or dignity. Nope. No perceived opportunity. Cause a lot of times the opportunities in the music business where you'd have to sacrifice your dignity are not real.

And they're just like inauthentic gatekeeping. So I try to look at principles like these. And if an artist can focus on, let's just say they were those three, you just focus on those three. Right. You're going to have a, you're going to have a really like meaningful career and a really good shot at making a living doing this. Yeah. So time on task and a commitment. Amazing. Time on task and a commitment is self-evidently good. No perceived opportunity is worth the loss of self-respect or your, or your dignity.

Right. Just like another one could be like learning the rules of the game, learning the rules of the music business. And then, um, intentionally setting off to break them is an optimal strategy. I would call that a first principle too. Not like trying to break the rules when you don't really know them. Then you're sort of being delusional and you're burning bridges, but you've got to know them.

Learn your, learn the territory, map of the territory, learn it, learn how things work, see it, really see it. Don't just Google it, like see it in real life and go, ah, that's how it works. Okay. Yeah. I'm either going to do that or the best strategy would be to try to break those rules a bit. Cause the current rules were once broken or they were broken to get to these rules. Right.

So, um, I think that's an optimal strategy is to break those rules. Once you know them really, really well, that's where you can be innovative and I don't mean break them into like a subversive way, but you know, cut against the grain and do something singular or amazing like that. So those are, those are the types of things I call first principles in music. And we, we know this more in business. I think it's more likely for an entrepreneur to be thinking what are the first principles way of thinking about my business and my product and my market fit and all of that.

But pulling this over into the artist world, I think is really effective in terms of coaching them or getting them to look at their career slightly different. It's like, oh wow, if I just focus on those things, everything else will start to come with it rather than chasing an achievement marker or something like that or status. Patrick, this, this has been amazing. Uh, I've had one consistent thought throughout this talk, which I think is quite interesting and we'll round out now. It is. Um, I believe that me as the music industry tend to have this ton of vision about, uh, what we focus on, what we speak about.

You know, one of the early examples I brought at the, I think before this podcast is we're going into, uh, sort of Nigeria now and India and Korea and trying to understand those markets. It's because we have this, you know, maybe Western mindsets once in a while, but what really realized me, like, I think this is episode number 60 I'm recording. Cool. And it's the first talk we've had in depth about artists, which is very ironic because I started the podcast with saying it's the bedrock of the industry. Okay. Yeah. And, and I like, I like to call myself out because I believe that's a strength and I would, and I try to exercise it.

And what struck me is, wow, sometimes we forget, even though we don't forget like really, but we do forget deeply that artists is the source of all this. Yeah. Uh, and, and entrepreneurs, including myself, forget that in the business of what we do. And I think that's my biggest takeaway from all of this. Um, it's a good one. And I'll good one to call yourself out on. Yeah. I mean, I like, I, uh, I was going to see if you're going to ask me to call myself out on something.

I was like, Oh, I got to think of something. Um, but yeah, like I, I mean, my work is so intimate with artists. They're sharing everything that they're going through. And man, I mean, you're a music lover. I mean, artists have literally saved my life. Right. So I, I never take, I never take them for granted because I mean, they make, they make the soundtrack to our lives, you know, and like a song can reshape your whole life or take your whole life in a new direction.

And literally save you. So these are the people who are making it and they're sacrificing nothing short of everything to give it to us. So yeah, they, they're often overlooked in terms of how much weight that they carry, um, emotionally as they try to, to bring their heaviest thoughts and their, I mean, they're, they're entering their dark side to make something for us, you know? So it's a, it's a heavy, heavy burden with a heavy price. Sometimes it's not all fun and what you see on social media.

It's a, I mean, they, they're some of the hardest working people that I know. Yeah. And it takes an enormous amount of energy and effort to be consistent for six months as an artist. It's like, it's an unbelievable amount of work. So they, they definitely deserve a lot of respect and, um, you know, validation for the work that they do. But I think like, and maybe someplace I can call myself out as I, in, in the spirit of your exercise here is maybe, maybe artists are thinking about this business thing and this entrepreneurial thing more than I know.

They're just not articulating it yet. Maybe they're thinking about it a lot more than I think they're just not bringing it up because they're still learning it or they're just not sure what to make of it or how to handle it. So it's a comfortable conversation, but maybe, maybe that's happening way more than I'm giving, giving them credit for. So anything else you want to confess to? Well, this is, well, this is a great way to end the episode. I thank you for, for joining me in that exercise.

Confession time. Yeah, we didn't know it was going to go there. Well, this, that should be a new section. Yeah, the confession at the end, man. You're going to have some tears on this podcast by the end of it. Oh, yeah. Well, Patrick, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. You too, Jacob. I'm looking forward to see what happens with your career moving forward, but I hope it's going to be something that really makes you happy. There's no doubt about that. That's, that's a first principle for me for sure.

So, thanks, Jacob. Great to be here. Thank you, Patrick. All right. Take care. Bye. Bye.