The Vision of WISE with Founder Philipp Grefer

You know I want to see how far I can I can bring the AI. So it's not only like now photos, now you can even do it with video, right, and also with voice, you know. While I was thinking about doing WISE, basically again, the future has not only caught up with me but kind of like, you know, went past me in a way, you know. Why is this a think tank conference within music and tech and creativity? This year's theme is Me Myself and AI, and I'm going to moderate a panel about investment in music tech and in AI. The founder Phillip here is talking about WISE, how it happened and why you should go. It's a partnership episode. Hey guys, and welcome back to Sound Connections podcast. Today is

a special episode we are doing a wise partnership episode Phillip from Wise welcome thank you for having me great so um we got connected through Linkedin uh lot of my lot of my uh connections come through there and you had a really curious thing about your uh your profile is that you run a conference that you need to describe because it's quite unique can you just give me a quick inser to what wise is yeah well we call it wise the um future festival and thing tank um the idea about that is basically you know we we think about the future uh mostly in music art and Technology

um and like the festival part is basically also coming from the from the fact that you know there will be there's actually music at the like a at the festival so during the day it's basically you know discussions and lot of thinking and um you know uh panels and Conference kind of style um things happening and in the evening we have uh you know much more much more relaxed atmosphere with bands or DJs playing and people mingling and drinking beer and uh whatever is needed to make a festival happen great I'm I'll been looking forward to it and I'm I'm very lucky that I get to moderate the panel so anyone who wants to go there of these audience please consider it it's in

Berlin uh it's going to happen at uh if I remember correctly 12th and 13th or 13th or 14th of May 14 14 exactly May 14th 15th yeah there we go um I'm looking very much forward to it but we need to understand uh not only what wise is and thank you for a short description but like how we came there uh so so what we start with this episode I just need to understand the story Philip you are from Germany but something happened a bit further away than Germany can you just walk us through the story Yeah so basically in 2007 um I just finished my studies uh I decided to go to China for the first time um in May 2007 um that had several reasons one of it was like actually

attending a music festival and I just keep it to music here so it's not too confusing um and when I went to China to Beijing to be exact there was a festival called midi Festival it was one of the first music festivals that happened in China actually or like on a regular basis and uh you know I went there and it was completely fascinating everybody so you have to you have to understand a little bit the background at that time everybody was talking about China because it was like 2008 was the Olympics right so like China um was just like gaining much more intern National momentum and recognition so everybody was talking about China but nobody knew

anything about it you know and then from 2007 to 2009 I went back and forth I was a little bit involved in a in a thing called uh Germany and China moving ahead together which was basically um I always describe it as a little bit as of as a circus you know as a Wandering circus we went in from one city to another always second tier cities so it was not Beijing Shanghai uh the two main cities but like it started in Ling then went to um I believe it was uh guango Shenyang uh chuning um you know cities most people never have heard of before um at that time uh and uh it

was basically project by the German government and German um business uh together um to bring like well let let me describe it like that um they took like over the city or the biggest Square in the city um put a huge stage on on on that square um put bands on there so I came you know I was in touch with a little bit with bringing bands and so on putting bands like Chinese and German bands on there and that had that went on for three years and um uh stopped at the uh Shanghai EXP in 2010 so every half year there was a different cities where um where this kind of you know uh government

um event was going to and then sort of like from those years where you establish yourself and sort of you see this kind of music thing might be a new thing in the public to founding VI like a bit fast forward in between there what was it that sort of motivated you to in 2018 to desle what happened in between yeah I mean so basically in 2009 I founded a music uh company um bringing uh professional you know more professionalizing what we did already before bringing first German uh music acts to China and then also Asia to more International acts I mean from your beautiful

country, Roop, for example, you know, like a Norwegian electronic band, you know, people from The Smiths or from, yeah, yes, a lot of techno DJs, all kinds of stuff. So basically me and my Chinese partner, who was also playing in a band, you know, kind of a famous Chinese band called Novah Heart, we were bringing people over to Asia and that was like very much the beginning of the music industry over there, you know, like, again we have to see it in perspective, everything was pirated, you know, like there was no streaming, no legal streaming and so on, so everything what you were doing was basically like a pioneering work, also like very

few people were bringing in international acts, you know. And you know around 2015, 2016 I would say the narrative about China was slowly changing, from oh wait a second, you know, like they're not only copying us but in some things they are even, they might be even better than us, you know. And that started mostly with the internet, with apps like, you know, WeChat. I think WeChat was the first like super power app that everybody was talking about, from the tech side, which is, you know, to describe it is kind of like a like a me, you know, it's

like a WhatsApp on steroids, you know, it's like a WhatsApp where you have like integrated, let's say Facebook or Instagram, where you can pay with your, you know, anything, you know, like from products to, you know, to wire money to your friends and so on. So basically everybody was living on WAD. And around that time also it was when we brought a bunch of people from China, like entrepreneurs and investors from the tech and music industry and creative industry to Berlin to Tech Open Air, like a, you know, festival that still exists. And from, we at that time we called it

No China, to, with the idea of like showing the Chinese to look at, you know, how a cool festival could look like, you know, cool tech festival, and on the other hand we wanted to kind of export it, you know, doing our old conference in China that is also like cool and not so, you know, a little bit more creative than the usual festival was at that time in China. And, you know, out of that came basically WISE, and the idea of bringing like on the one hand the creators and the tech people to together in China, but on the other hand also explaining the West how China works and vice

versa you know especially where like the exchange was between China and Europe but also people from the US from Australia from other places in Asia and so on um also at WISE that started in 2018 um as a on day conference and then 2019 it was like a two-day conference we also brought like in uh B from Europe um we partn up with Raper bar festival at that time um and it was like nicely growing uh to become like a fixed thing in the in the calendar for people to come to China and then of course 2020 happened here okay and now you doing it again here in 2024 um has there been any

conferences in between there was one last year um so basically we continued actually doing it I mean I took a play from uh you know beginning 2020 um from Beijing to Berlin just to you know basically I just wanted to like have a holiday uh was Chinese New Year at that time and then when we landed uh you know Co started and then of course the question was like how to continue with the with the festival in China uh you know which was kind of crazy so and it was scheduled in April that year or may I think and it was like obviously uh you know after a while we were like saying okay it's not possible but then we postpone it to um to Autumn in 2020 so we actually did an event in

uh Autumn 2020 um which was like completely crazy I mean we had like actually um physical events in China still while I was not there so I had to like uh um you know work with uh with people on the ground my partners over there uh and at the same time we connected those people and those events with events in in uh Berlin and in Hamburg so I I collaborated with the rber bar Festival on the one hand and also like did some of my own events um and then we tried to connect those events uh through the time zones and uh you know sometime sometimes online or whatever it was uh it was quite crazy but um it somehow worked and uh we did it in 2020 and 2021 and even in 2022 a little bit

but then by 20 oh no by 20 sorry 2022 we already did like uh then it was after Co we did our first um real life event uh in Berlin a standalone event and then 2023 was the second edition and then this year is the Third Edition the third like your Berlin Edition um in real life in berin it continued basically all the time through the pandemic um plus last year we also returned to China to do an event uh over there again and uh yeah so somehow we kept it going yeah what is it about wise that is special what did what is it you bring and the perspectives you bring

to the table that is worth attending for? Well, I mean, I again, I started WISE in China, right, so I always had this kind of idea in mind, you know, looking from the outside of especially Europe or Germany where I live now, again in Berlin for four years, and I think I still have like this, this look from the outside that you cannot have when you're just like living in your own country the whole time. And so I'm trying to program it that way. I'm trying to be really kind of, you know, cutting edge with what we are, what we are doing, with the topics of course

but also like to always you know push the boundary of what is happening a little bit if you go I always say like Europe um I'm not sure how Norway is but I feel like you know Germany is quite conservative um you know it's an old uh it's an yeah it's an old country with actually old also old people living in it um if you look at the pyramid um of you know of the H pyramid basically so that makes it sometimes a little bit slow and a little bit um you know uh slow to adapt if you look to China or to uh the US you know these are much more Dynamic places although

China was extremely Dynamic the last 10 years and now maybe it's a little less dynamic as well uh with Co and the um the current um uh political situation so on but it is still um you know a country which you shouldn't underestimate um and I think that's the that's always the perspective that I'm trying to bring um to wise you know just always to push the boundaries a little bit um from you know the good old Europe um and it's Nic here and like um you know everything will be as it always has been uh probably not you know so I'm always trying to make people aware that

things are changing and can change quite fast, you know. And this year's topic is quite timely, as remember correctly, it's Me Myself and AI, which is sort of the title, and that's something, can you tell me a bit about that theme? Yes, I mean, we every year we have a theme, and this year, yeah, of course AI is the big, you know, the big theme of this year. I mean, it's funny, so on the one, so like Me Myself and AI was like a little bit coming from the idea of like, you know, I want to see how far I can I can bring the AI, you know, like how, I mean, can I take myself

out of the process that would obviously the best right I mean just make myself super fluous you know and somebody else like or thei or my avatar whatever like organizes wise I mean spoiler alert no I unfortunately have to organize it still by myself and with my team and there's like real people involved um but um you know for example we every year we uh have you know we take portrays of um of people basically friends of friends or whatever some are famous some are not um and we use these portrays a little bit as a as a marketing tool um to promote Wise um it's also the idea of it is also like to have the human in the center right because of all

the technology we always talking about technology and so on, but we should not forget that the human is still in the center of our conversation, you know, as long as, as the AI is not talking to the AI. So this year I just didn't use a photographer anymore, I just used a photo of myself, which we took like two years ago, and then I just like put instead of my head like different heads on there, AI heads basically. And you know, so to also have this kind of discussion, you know, like where is AI taking the jobs, you know, will, you know, can I, you know, be completely

virtual person you know and um and just for this I mean you know I used that technique which was not you know I couldn't use it like uh one year or two years ago even you know like I can I can use it now um and now this whole topic and the whole idea that I had to like basically you know take me out of the picture um becomes more and more crazy because uh I think you already experimented with it uh with ha Jen and so on um so it's not only like now photos which was you know hard to do what I did it like even half a year ago or like a year ago now you can even do it with video right and also with voice um so you know while I was thinking about doing wise basically Again The

Future Has Not only caught up with me but kind of like uh you know went past me in a way you know so that's that's something that I that I'm trying to you know yeah to to to um you know make make a topic out of it you know M and it's really interesting about sort of taking yourself as a a Persona and pushing the limits uh I'm not going to spill any beans this this podcast yet but the team and us are working on some things right now we we're just very much in doubt of whether or not we will release it just because it's rather provocative but like from from the generated AI videos you can see now on the platform we're working on some you know took it took it further

um but there's also the conflict and that obvious that's something we're going to talk about in the music like what is it taken it too far like what does it mean like when are you when are you experimenting with stuff that you know it's not that you shouldn't but like when when do you start becoming careful and what does it mean to the music industry what does it mean to the creative industry like you know not to talk too much about it like but I've been I've been working Ono AI the last you know couple of days in order to sort of see how far can a prompt and this is not things I'm going to release but you know when you see what's out on Theo website of what I've hear heard of examples like with songs that sounds like semi good me and my team through the last 3 days have found a special method actually to not only make ful length songs but actually really

good songs through structured processes. So we have like now we have 10 songs in the bank which is full, well written, well produced, well audio processed songs, there much more than you can just get from your, from your general prompts. The reason why I'm saying this is it's going so fast, so these conversations needs to be had, and just today I had the team with my head of strategy, like are we pushing it too far, like is this pushing it too far, should we, should we pull the break before we go too far, and we don't know. So we need a place in Berlin in around the month where we can talk about this. I think it's quite important because even though I talk with a lot of people, it's just a

difficult conversation to have. That's obviously one of many conversations that's going to be had, but, yeah, and of course I mean the other question is like can we even pull the brakes, you know, even if we wanted to, so because of, you know, game theory and so on, you know, I mean it will be difficult to pull the brakes, you know. So absolutely, that's also one of the arguments, but like again one of the controversial things with some of the me and my team experimented with, like, you know, well we probably, you know, we force, this will happen, but should we be the first ones to do it, like is that going to go over well? It's an interesting topic and thank you Philip for being on the podcast. This is just sort of a teaser to what's going to happen at WISE. Before

we add the episode can you just walk through specifically what the um the guests at conferences will experience what are they coming to well I mean we have uh you know two days of well of full Berlin for you basically uh at four venues um two conference venues and tonight venues so um you know you can also decide to if you if you want to skip the conf then only you know mingle at night um with bands from all around the world basically um you know on the on the music side we have like Sam quy for example who also brought to China recently um who like a you know crazy dancer um

SL performer um you know she uh she has worked with a lot of fashioned people a lot of like people from the um you know from the uh um from the Ving world and so on we have NF Sian who is like related to a certain Troyer um you know uh who is more like on the pop side of things uh who has an amazing voice um we will actually clone his voice and we'll give it uh people to experiment with um that's one of the things that we're doing uh to get on the AI theme again then of course we have um you know uh people like Harriet Davey uh who all experiment with AI but also like going

into virtual worlds with their like fluid avatars and so on. We will talk about how AI actually, you know, metaverse was like the big topic of last year, right, and now everybody, oh the metaverse is not going to be there anymore, maybe the word metaverse is not there anymore, but virtual worlds, virtually immersive worlds will continue to, you know, to flourish basically. And AI makes the whole process even faster, right, because now you can easier build 3D worlds. So we're going to talk about that as well. We talk about regulation, AI regulation all over the world, how this is affecting us. We will have a look at, you know, actually

the German government's policy at Innovation and AI um you know if you look at the EU EU AI act I mean you know Germany is still the biggest country in the EU and there's like a lot of say uh when it comes um to uh you know EU uh policymaking of course um so also gets a little bit political um we will have a lot of AI startups um that will present uh advice uh the news products H and of course you know for example we have your panel where it's more like about investment in Ai and the music tech ecosystem um because that's also like very important to like how can we Foster

this music tech ecosystem, you know, on the one hand of course we have all these startups on the other hand, and we will discuss it at WISE and I, you know, I think we will discuss it already a little bit before, how or what role can investors play and how can, you know, this whole ecosystem be, you know, you know, gets, you know, get a little bit better, you know, basically. Yeah, lot of topics. That's so many interesting topics and I think anyone who's interested in AI or music tech, of music, of creative art should definitely be there. I've looked through the speaker list multiple times, it's great people, so I know it's going to be a high quality. Well Philip, it's

been a pleasure uh touching Basse with you we're going to have a couple of more episodes with wi's guests here the next few weeks which is basically just diving into those people that will be there their thoughts on this topic or other topics and then I'm look so much forward to see you in about a month's time and for everyone out there listening come to eyes we'll have a beer together and have some good talks yeah looking very much forward to it a few of your uh former speakers will also come right I'm Matias from music tech Germany and New Visions and uh and Hazel Savage from SoundCloud so I'm looking forward to having them all there thank you philli thank you very much.