The Metadata Problem Costing Creators Millions

Jakob

Quickly start uploading I will just make sure all is good. Great. And the second thing is the more of a dialogue the better. So I'm not super good at interrupting, but if you just have to keep in the bike back of your head that you also leave some room for some breaks once in a while and I'll try to interrupt because that just that dialogue dynamic works quite well. That's more natural when you sit together in a physical room, but constraints of digital is yeah. Okay, cool. We will start in five seconds.

Niclas

Mm. Perfect.

Niclas

I know.

Jakob

Hey guys and welcome back to Sound Connections Podcast. Today it's an honor to have Nicholas in the studio. Welcome.

Niclas

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

Jakob

Nicholas, this will be fun for me. I used to be a songwriter and that's sort of where I have my passion at the first beginning of my career. And what we're gonna talk about today is very much about rights and is about your journey as a founder as well. And you have you've had a absolutely credible career. So we'll get into that, Nicholas. But for the people who don't know you, who are you and what do you do?

Niclas

So yeah, I'm a Swedish guy, born and raised in a small place called Urbru in Sweden. I've been interested in music for all my life. I we don't really know in my family where it comes from, probably from my granddad, because he was the one, the only one we can trace back was that was playing any kind of instrument. So but a huge interest of music made me into a songwriter and music producer. So I've been doing that for plus 20 years, been writing and producing for artists all around the world. But for the last ten years ish, plus mm, almost fifteen actually to be honest, I've been very involved in rights management and different kinds of initiatives that helps the industry, especially the music creators, to get credited and paid for what they do. So that's me.

Jakob

Hmm. And one of the businesses we'll talk about today, besides your advocacy and music rights awareness foundation, is Session, which is a company you created together with some amazing partners that also has been sold and sort of integrated into our a larger ecosystem. Just to set the scene, maybe you can also describe Session a bit for us.

Niclas

Yeah, Session is a platform that help creators to capture the important information about contributions, who did what, where, and when on a song. Because that information, which is also called metadata, is the only way for creators to get created and paid. And the industry struggles with that information. A lot of money is not paid out to create because the industry don't know who they are.

Jakob

Mm-hmm.

Niclas

So I mean I of many different reasons I realize that's the big problem. That the cre creators don't really care. We care because I'm a songwriter as well as you. So we can say you w when you we talk about creators sometimes I'm pretty hard on creators because when it comes to the admin side and you protecting your rights, I mean when you're in the studio don't you don't really care about that. You care about what comes out of the speakers in studio. That's what you're interested in. And then the information, the metadata about who did what, where, and when that gets you paid, we deal with that later. But later many times doesn't happen. So then a couple of years later, when the song is out and we realize, I don't get my money. What's going on? And screaming and shouting about that. Then we realize that oops, there was missing information. So session is a platform that helps creators to capture that information on time when it happens here in the studio.

Jakob

Hmm. I'm very curious to hear about how that happened because you yourself had incredible credentials, work with amazing artist and your partners, Max Martin and Bjorn from ABBA are arguably some of the biggest icons in the world in music nonstop for the last century. So there must have been some sort of interesting conversation going on to also jump into building something together. Like that doesn't happen too often.

Niclas

No, it started first of all I could say that I'm curious. That is one of the reasons. I want to learn, I want to understand stuff. And I mean since I've been around for many years, I'm my first release was on a vinyl man. I'm fifty plus so and especially what's going on now in the industry with the two scary letters AI, which everyone's talking about, you know, the a lot of people maybe not. Panicking, but it's a big issue. And of course it should be. But I've seen so many different tech developments in the industry since I started. I've been part of a lot of this different distribution formats and so on. So when but there was one part where that really made me worried. That was when we lost the physical format. That was CD, is the last one I remember, and Things got a bit more out of control when the format that was something we can ho keep in our hands suddenly became something that was floating around on computers, on phones, and then after some time it got into streaming. So you didn't even need needed an MP3 file on your computer or on your phone. You could just get the music. And something happened when we lost the physical format into a non-physical format, and that was that. More data got missing because they were so easy to spread songs between people and to for companies to sell it on a CD. There was a printed names and information about the songs, but now boom, that completely disappeared. And that was when I really started get interested in what's going on. What is the problem? Because the problem for me was that I expected more money.

Jakob

Mm.

Niclas

Every time I received royalty statements from labels, publishers, and my CMO. So that made me curious. What's going on? What's wrong? And I really wanted to learn. So I started to you know read and ask as much as I could. And what any problem I faced in all the different parts of the industry, it was always because of the same problem. The creators were not identified, they were not known. So that was like, and no one's really trying to solve that problem. Because the only ones that can give us that information about who did what, where, and when in are the guys in the studio. We creators, no managers, label, publisher, or CMO can guess what happened. We need to be part of that journey. So that was the whole idea. And As I'm a creator myself and I've been dealing with a lot of creators. I mean, as soon as we hear that word metadata, we just like, no, please don't expose me for that terrible term. Let me be in the studio and do what I'm doing here. I realize that we cannot just do a boring metadata tool. It needs to be a creative tool that also helps you solve a lot of day-to-day issues that we have here. So I listed up the problems and the issues I have during the creation process. And together with that and the data layer to capture that important information, we created session. It was actually called Oddly from the start. It was a different name. And I had so much experience after all the years in the industry, so I realized that no one will listen to me about this. I need power and power in informal people.

Jakob

Mm.

Niclas

That are very highly influential and high profile the creators because I think we were representing creators so they were it was important that they were creators. And since I'm a Swedish guy, I thought that actually I said to my I remember that I and so the reason why I really faced that I r I needed powerful people to solve the problem. But then there was a Swedish governmental f controlled investment fund that invested fifty percent and the rest of the fifty percent had to be private capital and someone then told me get smart money don't just like any investor get smart money and I was like what's that? Yeah but money from people that also can help you solve the problem. So then I remember that I got that idea. What a cool thing to get ABBA and Max Martin to

Jakob

Yeah.

Jakob

Mm.

Jakob

Mm.

Niclas

Two Swedish giants, and it turned out to be Max first? No, yeah, I think it was that yeah. I tried to get hold of Abba, it was impossible, and it was completely impossible. All different ways into Abba, Björn and Benny lead to the same person, and she said no to me all the time, and it actually became a bit fun because when I came from another angle and ended up with the same person again, and she liked Nicholas. Give up. Give up. So but I f I've sold that in a nice way. So I bumped into Bjorn by coincidence actually and I got his number and then boom that was w you know, he said, that sounds interesting. Do you want to have lunch? And I like, Yes, let's have lunch, man. So and after that it also led to that Max joined and he that was also a bit of work to get him on board, because I mean as

Jakob

Okay.

Niclas

As a successful guy like him, you know, everyone's chasing him. So yeah, I managed to get the two together. It didn't end up with abba both Bjorn and Benny, but Bjorn and Max Martin decided to join. And this is f fifteen years ago maybe even more. And so and then I was completely sure that I literally stepped out of the studio and became founder and CEO of a music tech startup.

Jakob

Yeah.

Jakob

Yeah. Yeah, I think I think from the listeners, I think the context is important. For example, Bjorn has been very, very active advocating for rights, you know, on global level for many, many years. So this is something that's not just, you know, him with a personal interest, he's had a pr professional career besides music, really pursuing this. And Max again, I would assume most people know also Max, but it in my world, Max is number one, like ever. So it's that level of people.

Niclas

Mm. Yeah.

Jakob

That you are building this with. But I don't assume that it just it became easy because of that. That must have been a long journey ahead of you as well.

Niclas

Yeah. But I'm glad that I was naive enough to think that it would have been easy. Because to be honest, and I and probably many people that've been doing a long journey say this but you know, it's been a roller coaster and both good and bad. But you know, it if I've been feeling anxious and feeling bad for 85%, maybe 15% have been really high and good and positive. But man, those 15% is worth everything. So it's completely worth having the lows and the challenges and to get but I expected it to be much easier with Bjorn and Benny, Bjorn and Max. But it was it was challenging, even though with that

Jakob

Yeah. I can imagine so may maybe I think it's it could be interesting to set the setting of why it could be challenging. And my own assumptions listening to you speak is you mentioned it yourself, creators maybe inherently are a bit resistant to these sort of structures in their creative environments and these sort of necessities in order to future proof what they're doing, which is sort of very unnatural to a usual workflow. But then also I can also imagine that the that the paying willingness in those

Niclas

Mm.

Niclas

Yeah.

Jakob

Those customer bases it needs a lot of education as well. Like so it's you basically need to educate people who are not super receptive to education and also pay for products that are difficult because there's not a lot of precedent for it. Maybe you could break down for me why this might have been more difficult than you expected with your customer base.

Niclas

Yeah, I mean I mean I said before, I mean we're here in the studio and here is where everyone wanna be and create. You know, that's what they do. And w what I also think that creators should do. The problem though I faced, I thought that the will in the creative communities worldwide to get their credits and get money was much bigger than it actually was. And that still confuses me a bit. I assume that every creator on the planet have sometime in life had another job. Worked, let's say that someone worked in a restaurant, for example. Would any person, even if you're a music creator, go to that restaurant and work for free? Absolutely not. And to be there and do the work is of course the most important thing. But to get your salary, there's three things you need to do. You need to leave your social security number, your bank account number, and you need to leave a time card when you go home so the employer knows how many hours you've been working so they can pay you. That part. Of music creation doesn't exist. It is like creators think that either they don't care about getting paid or they think it happens automatically, which I now, many, many years later, with much, much more knowledge, knows that's not the case. There's many, many millions of dollars or euros or whatever currency you want to use out there. Ready to be paid out to creators if the industry only knows who they are. Imagine that restaurant again. Do you think that you know it's like a big pile of money, like and go to the staff and say, guys, you have not left your time cards and your bank accounts, so I don't know where to pay out the money, and people don't care about it. But here in the industry, we don't even care, even though we get the information that there's money waiting for us. And I've been doing this now, as I said, for many years, and I'm still

Niclas

Confused why it's so hard to reach out to the creators with this message. And education, yeah. Education might be the solution or is part of the solution. And we probably gonna get to that later. How Björn Max and I also are involved in education initiatives, not only providing a platform for capturing the data. We thought that was. The missing piece, but realized that even if we provided that session is free to use, completely free. You don't even have to pay for it, but still no one uses it. And that was like so that led into solving education. And even though we're part of an education initiative that is huge and worldwide, it's still hard to get attention. And so, long answer, but the conclusion is that. The actual music creation is what everyone's in it for. But everything concerning metadata, the boring stuff side of it, it's a bit hard to understand, it's a bit boring. We just don't care about that. But because of that, we many times also miss out on payments and credits.

Jakob

Try to explain to me the reasoning for making such an ambitious pursuit free.

Niclas

Because we first I must v very much credit Max and Bjron from the start because they it was mainly their idea that it should be free, at least at an entry level. So we could not put barriers if two creators get in the same room. It needs someone maybe don't want to pay for something and someone don't maybe don't even have the money for paying it. But so we wanted creation to not put barriers for people to c to collaborate. So therefore the session business model is what's called a freemium. You can always use it for free. And we don't even ask for credit cards and stuff when you create your account. But if you want to use session as your main source of storing audio and as a you know, your main data hub, then we have storage as any other service. So and we can unfortunately not just give out storage for free. So we have a paying tier for people that really need more storage. But i we just wanted to give the industry and the creative community in the world a free tool to so they can stand up for their rights.

Jakob

And you know, a usual founder journey would have very much focus on building value and profit and all that kind of stuff would because that's the capitalistic nature of building most companies. Was that completely not present or was it just a smaller part of the journey? Like how would you ex describe that?

Niclas

D just by you asking makes me like that was one of the hardest parts, you know. I f for me personally, in general, not only in this case, you know, I'm very driven by passion. So I'm passionate about solving problems and I've not really done stuff for money. Of course I no know I need money and if I get a lot of money, that's of course

Jakob

Ha

Niclas

Makes the life a bit easier, but I always want to do things to solve problems or you know, by and do it by passion. And I think Max and Björn, they are exactly the same. They are of course on a completely another level financially than I am, and they are much more successful in all ways, but they share that. And I think that they saw it as a give back Because they have been struggling exactly the same when they started. And if now we had the opportunity to try to help the creators of the future. So, but with that said, there were investors on board. We had board meetings, investor meetings. And since I was the founder and the CEO, my God, have I more or less been executed in these meetings? And leave people like, Nicholas. You said it's gonna take two months. It's now nine months, and we're still not there. We're burning so much more money than you said, like you know, and again I stepped out of this environment that you know in the studio as a songwriter and producer and suddenly became a CEO and founder. I had no idea what balance sheet was, you know, and stuff like that. So I also had to learn. But that was frustrating because of course there was also a an a will. An intention to also be profitable and build up the company. And there are good examples of companies that actually can do both. Give away something for free at especially in an entry level and then s and but still earn money. So yes, we there was also an intention to be a successful, profitable company.

Jakob

You know, not to not to go there already, but I think it's important that this discussion. You ended up being acquired into an ecosystem. Could you walk me through that situation and the reasoning behind that?

Niclas

Yeah, mainly because mainly it started out because there was w it was a challenge to run a tech startup company in Stockholm in Sweden. Stockholm's been extremely successful with a lot of different tech companies in different businesses, not only music we have in f financial tech, in med tech and there we were, a small music tech startup with limited budget. And the big companies out there, they took all the competence. You know, if you wanted a developer, ooh, that was expensive and a challenge for us to find the right people. And also the lack of knowledge from me and from a few others in the company that's what's more music industry people, we didn't have any knowledge about tech. That led to that I bumped into or actually was recommended to meet a tech company in London. And I went to that meeting without knowing exactly what people it was. You know, someone just said, you need to go see this guy. So I knocked on the door. And that was the start of a long, mostly friendship and business collaboration with especially two guys, Doug and Phil. They have been in music tech forever and are tech experts. They know the music industry inside out. So it started out us using them as our tech delivery partner. They took over everything. And now the companies that they run now, it was a different name back when we met, but it's now called Salt. And Salt delivers a number of Tech solutions and IT infrastructure for the music industry, all from pretty or really advanced tech systems for CMOs like the Boomastemra, which is the in the Netherlands that collects all money for songwriters and publishers. They have built the whole infrastructure for that. And they have a lot of other music tech platforms as well. The only thing that they didn't have.

Niclas

Was the tech solutions for getting the data here in the studio. So therefore, after some time, we came to the conclusion that the best solution here is if Session gets acquired by Salt and becomes a part of the Salt family because they're building the tech anyhow, and we're good friends. And so we merged the companies and so me and Björn, especially Bjorn Max, was not so involved when w in the acquisition there. So but then

Jakob

Mm.

Niclas

We turned into a part of Salt instead, which I'm still am today. So I'm very much involved in SALT and the session side.

Jakob

And was that was that deemed successful for the board and investors that were sort of on you breathing down your neck? Was that good enough or what was the reaction there?

Niclas

No, it we I mean I must credit Björn, especially Björn. Max as well, but especially Björn when it's we know when f when it comes to the funding of Audley and Session from the start. I mean he's been incredible, you know. When there was like when we were on the edge, you know, I've been in so weird situations where I more or less was like panicking because like if I don't solve the money situation until tomorrow that's we're talking about that like tomorrow I need to start let people go because we will not afford to survive and panic call everyone I you know and then you can say how could you be so stupid and let it go so far so you need money tomorrow but hey but always sold it. So Björn always stepped in. So You know. but we got to the point where we said, No, it's not we it's not sustainable anymore. We need to find another poor solution. And it a company cannot be depending financially on just one guy. And so and so therefore it was a natural step to let someone buy us. and but we didn't wanna let go, so therefore Björn followed

Jakob

Yeah.

Niclas

into the board of the bigger organization of SALT and I became part of the SALT group as well. So we kind of came with the product so to say. So it was not a an exit, it was like an acquisition with us coming with it.

Jakob

Yeah, yeah. What where did that leave you emotionally? Did you see that as a success or a defeat or somewhere in between? Like where were you left there?

Niclas

My God. I it's been an a roll emotional roller coaster that as well. You know, it's I mean, I think I dreamt of being an artist back in the days when I was a teenager. And I have a to be real honest now, I expose myself, but you know, I have a something in me that really I think I would have been a great artist because I love to be in the spotlight and you know, I love that type of appreciation. But so of course it was tough to let session go. because it was like my baby. It was something, an idea that came from my head and now suddenly we sell it to someone. But I since I was part of the acquisition, you know, I came with it, it was not that bad. But it yes, it felt it was weird to let the baby go, and let someone else take it over and buy it. and Yeah, I don't know w what I expected because it was not that successful, you know, i as so it needed a transformation into something else. But of course since I am the see me hear me guy, you know, I it was like it was a bit hard emotionally to let something go that I created. But now I'm super happy that it that we did that because the session is completely in the right hand now.

Jakob

Yeah, because you know, it plays into your advocacy in this field with Music Rights Awareness Foundation and credits due and even though maybe the entrepreneurial journey in its capitalistic sense was maybe not as successful as hopefully sh could have been, in like a dream scenario.

Niclas

Mm.

Jakob

I can imagine that the advocacy that really is the reason why you're doing this, really won from that process. Can you can you expand that a bit for me if I'm right in my assumptions here?

Niclas

Yeah. the advocacy about it is because you know, still today, as so many years later, you know, I t told you about my frustration that creators don't understand and not are willing to learn that important information, how you get credited and paid. And but my wife sometimes says, like you a normal person would have given up if you realize that something is so hard and tough. But in me, it's the opposite. So when I realize that, this was hard, that gives me even more energy to try to solve it. And the challenge here is that we don't only have the creators that don't really understand how it works. We also have a big industry. Representing a lot of different parts of the different the different parts of what we call the song. And it's to me, it's still that it's so hard to reach out to the companies and organizations in the industry as well, with this what I think is basic information. It is like it's an I don't think that anyone's doing it on purpose, you know, purposely, that we should absolutely not get credit creators credited and paid. Of course not. But everyone's it seems like it's so complicated and creators are so hard to get on board in this kind of mission. So we no, yeah, we spend some time on it. But the main focus for everyone is to get the hits, earn money. you know, I was frustrated. during the especially during this early session days, early session days, because I saw so many other music industry tech startups, and some of them just like poof, you know, it took a f sometimes just a year, a few months. And now afterwards, when I just like look back, it was everything that's been rights related and

Niclas

Unsexy and boring. Sorry for saying that, but it's some that's how many people see it. As soon as it's related and linked to that, it's like no one wants it. Everyone's I mean, everyone of course says that yeah, we need to get creators credited and paid, everyone wants their money. And hopefully everyone knows in the back of their heads that the only way of being able to pay people. is to know who they are. And this challenge is what drives me. How can I get the industry to understand how important this is? And I don't see any other business anywhere in the world that just put a product out on the market, not care about how we're gonna get paid when the customers are paying for it. But in music, yeah, unfortunately many times it is like that.

Jakob

I but maybe correct me if I'm wrong here. Like one thing of course is a product of culture. when people start making music there might be a inherent culture of ignoring this and there's not necessarily as much awareness, but there might also be an element and here you can correct me if I'm wrong, where there's a reluctance from the industry to adapt it because a lot of their relevance is based on being those people who's supposed to do that work but doesn't really do it correctly and well. Is that correct or?

Niclas

No, I mean yeah, first yeah, I mean it is a tradition that it kind of been like that. I it's just a fun story that I experienced myself. But back in the physical days, vinyl and CD, the person that collected all the important information about who did what, where and when the metadata was not the ANR or the label admin teams. It was the graphic designer of the cover art because that information needed to go on the covers. So they chased me about it, and then the label publisher and Sima automatically got it because it was on the printed artwork. Today we don't have artwork, so that thing has d you know completely disappeared. So yeah, we suffer from a long time tradition where not suffer but you know it the tradition it has always been that what comes out of the speakers what we create is the most important thing because that's what people gonna hear and that's what's called a song but the resistance of doing stuff today to improve the in quality of the metadata before the first commercial release of a song I hope I don't think that is on purpose I mean it's not a secret that the unidentified money, the so-called black box, w after some time, different from different countries and different situations, the money is given out to the industry. Because the money cannot be there forever. It need someone needs to get it. And then the industry have worked out a solution that is based on market shares. So the money is given out to the companies that represent the biggest shares of the industry. but those companies that receive that money they are so big so of course and earn so much money in general. So of course they are not doing stuff on purpose to cheat on the creators because I mean those companies don't exist without creators. But it is a challenge. And I am still a bit frustrated that I there's so much more we can do to spread this information out, and

Jakob

Yeah.

Niclas

Sometimes I get both frustrated and sad that it's that it's so hard, especially when you give out things for free. You know, here. Use this tool, it's free. so yeah, it those kind of questions have been keeping me awake at night, I can tell you.

Jakob

Hm.

Jakob

It's I think there's a really interesting parallel. Like my besides building companies with my venture studio, where we do a lot of music tech, my professional curiosity goes to music technology financing and startups in this space. And I meet the same it's very analogous to what's happening in music tech, where music tech inherently is not music, it is it is entrepreneurship, but the surrounding industry that it also has this attitude, as you're saying, which means the capitalistic value of music is maybe made much, much less, which also means that there's this very big support for people that are not taking a capitalistic approach or r think really, really hard about money and how to succeed here, which also ultimately means that it's so much harder to succeed because the culture around them is not the fault, let's make a good business, but let's make some great music. And I value that. But the consequences also, as you say, there's a lot of missed opportunities, a lot of missed wealth, there's a lot of things that go wrong that didn't necessarily need to go wrong. and I think that doesn't serve anyone that

Niclas

Mm. No. I mean and wow, this is so emotionally strong for me. So I've been talking to with so many people about this so many times. So every music company in the music industry, and also the CMO, the organization that represents songwriters and performers, they're all saying that because of the lack of metadata and the bad quality of metadata. We spend so much time and to figure out stuff afterwards and it would have been so much better to get the better quality data and I'm like yeah I know I know and that's what we do blah and creators like yeah I want my money I want my credits and all that yeah but you know if you just so we have the solution and you know how many other times I've And then when I say this, especially to music companies and the CMOs, I say, okay, we have it and it's free because I mean as when it gets a business behind it, I understand it gets challenging. And but if something is free to use, just with a good intention to increase the quality of the data, then I say, Why don't we make it mandatory? You cannot do a certain thing until you have done this. And we have one thing in the industry that we're where we already use that. And that is the unique identifier for the sound recording. We have the industry we're using five identifiers, and one of them is called ISRC, which I would say more or less everyone in the industry have heard the term ISRC, International Standard Recording Code. It identifies the sound recording, and we can get into

Niclas

The other parts of a song later. But and why do everyone know about it? Yeah, because it's mandatory. You cannot release a sound recording out in the world without an ISRC. So we say that you need to do this. And every time I brought up that why don't we make the same structure for other things? And if you work for a specific music company, you need to use this app that can be branded as your company. And make sure that all data comes in here. So you one, get the creators credit creators credited and paid, you reduce your cost for admin afterwards, everything gets more correct. But then I always get the same answer. No, we cannot put that pressure on the creators. And I'm like, what why? No, no. They should be in the studio. They get so upset if we ask them to do stuff that is above or beyond what they're doing in the studio. and I say, but they're gonna complain in one to two years, anyhow. no, but we cannot do that because creators are creators. And then I always say that creators are humans. I mean, come on. And we as humans, we are exposed to so many things in life where technology is mandatory. I mean, if you're flying with an airline, you cannot just show up with any airline app. You need to use the app that the airline tells you to use. Same goes with your bank. And so as humans, we are used to it. But in this specific area of metadata management in music, it seems that we're it's different. Creators are a different species here. We cannot force them to do anything. And that to me, I still wanna crack that thing today. And I don't know what to do. It's just challenging.

Jakob

Well, th that's really interesting and again you would assume in naivety that if you have the partners you have with the force that they have and the authority that they have that should make everyone listen. But it doesn't seem like that happens. And I find it incredibly confusing as well. and I also I really, really fail to believe that structure is inherently the opposite of creativity. I think I think there's definitely truths to it that especially if you have full creative access, that being able to navigate freely i is a is a great thing. But everyone have cycles, right? Like when you create music, yes, you can be completely present, but you're not completely present at all times in your life. There is also natural times of structure. And I think it's in a healthy culture. Like I studied conservatory for five years as well. And I was I've been a creator and songwriter and I subscribed to that creative nature and was a bit chaotic and missed my deadlines and blah. And through doing business like yourself over the last ten years, I've learned structure. It's not the enemy of my creative expression. it's difficult to change the mindset, but it's not the enemy. And I failed to believe that it is the enemy. but it's a cultural adaptation that takes time.

Niclas

Yeah, and I'm a bit against that we say or that the industry say that they generalize and say that all creators are creators. They don't have control over the stuff, you know, they need to be creative and don't ask them about admin. But I must say that the majority of all creators I meet, especially studio producers, I mean their hard drives. All the files are mapped correctly, they know where to find it, they color code each different instrument group. It's hardcore admin, my friend. Hardcore admin. But when you get to the admin about getting credited and paid, then we can be unstructured, you know, and so that is so confusing. And I've said it a couple of times now. It's like everything that is related to the creation. Or th tools or methods of getting the songs out to the people so we can commercialize the songs and get money back. All those kind of ideas and startups and solutions, boom, much more attention. But all the other I mean, we are a couple of individuals and companies that f for the last 10-15 years been side by side trying to solve exactly that problem. And I don't think any one of those companies have been really successful up until today. So it is still an area we need to work on.

Jakob

What would be your assumptions for where we would see that change? What is the angle of improvement that is g gonna be most likely to have the highest impact over time?

Niclas

what we see what a huge change right now is that more and more artists and studio producers involved many times are doing what's called DIY, do it yourself. You release your song to the market without any involvement of publishers and labels. So you do everything your own. But that also comes with a price. You are now one hundred percent Responsible for the metadata yourself because no one's doing it for you anymore or solve the problems afterwards. I think that this over time will be very positive because creators will understand that we get zero now because no one is taking care of this. So I think the DIY market will change the landscape. We still need help from a few music companies and especially the ones called aggregators, the distro kid, the tune course, the amuses, because those are the only way for the self-releasing artists to get the songs out on the market. So in collaboration with them, I think it will change. And I also think that it's another group of tech companies in the industry that I really would like to get more involved in. And believe me, I tried with almost zero success. And that is the DAW developers, the digital audio workstations, the Logic Ableton Pro Tools. I'm gonna honestly say that the only DAW on the market that was super supportive and actually done stuff with us is Pro Tools. Pro Tools has been extremely open, and but since they work alone and you need to have a wider collaboration, it cannot be one tool with one DAW, it needs to be a wider collaboration.

Jakob

Mm.

Niclas

if because of that I think also Pro Tools also got a bit cold because they felt alone. but you know, that's the tool everyone uses every day in the studio. So that's where the data should be captured.

Jakob

I think that's interesting and I think if I would play devil's advocate on that, you know, I've used Pro Tools myself for many years and it is also in a start contract to for example Logic, which you have in the background, because of the user group they usually try to acquire. Pro Tools are inherently engineered, structured people. It's not an entry level product per se, where, you know, Logic, GarageBand, Ableton, whatever more so is. And one thing that surprises me, which might be, you know, part of the irony that you're basically describing now is on paper at least, you have all the best circumstances for making these partnerships, right? Like, you know, you have yourself a rich career, you have partners that are arguably the best you can have in the world, but in this field, you're from Sweden, of all places, which is, you know, if not number one music tech exporter in the world, like per capita. Well, it probably is number one. So like you have on paper the circumstances for it. So even in spite of that, the hardships and the reluctance of attacking this problem in exchange for maybe a tiny bit less accessible user experience, you can even argue that's not really a barrier. That you that you receive this response. Like, what do you think is the reason?

Niclas

Yeah. I don't think I mean I have been I would say that the initiatives where I've been involved in has been mo more successful than others thanks b thanks to Bjorn and Max involvement. Because you always get the ears of people and doors open. So that has been a great benefit. but I th still think the challenge for all different Tech solutions and other initiatives here in this area that is related to music rights. That's I think that's the biggest problem here. It completely goes over people's heads. It's like either it's completely they don't understand it or it's don't many times they don't think it's part of their own business. so I think it's the actual part of the this the music industry as it itself that is the challenge. No one really wants to be connected with it. But in the end of the day, every single person and company in the industry that want to make a living out of selling songs are completely depending on this. But still no one cares. And if you have a solution on this, please partner up and try to solve it, we know, because we are many people that are frustrated here, you know, because we don't understand why it's so hard.

Jakob

Mm.

Jakob

Hmm. I think again, my expertise in this field is limited, so take with a grain of salt what I'm saying. But from my conversations with people who know better than me, including you, what seems to be a viable path to this is the word mandatory, as you said. Like, sorry, my one second. I'll cut that out. My camera's not charging. One second. So that's

Jakob

the mandatory word is quite important in this aspect. one it relates to for example the big question with AI and rights attribution and all that kind of stuff. I think that can have a policy push from the European Union or to do that. but one interesting thought I have, and I'll just share it, if how detrimental the this issue is and the repercussions it has through the industry. Again, I'll speak about music tech, which is definitely more my expertise. Me and my business partner, my business partner does not come through music, and we run a venture studio that does a lot in the music industry and tech industry. When you talk about money, let's say with conferences, you really quickly receive hostility. When you talk about being paid for work and not about doing things out of friendship, you get you get branded as like this dick. Like These guys come here to make business, which is kind of weird because the premise of most of these conferences is making business. And it's so ingrained from everything from songwriters to investors in this space, I mean you would say, to conferences to industries, that money is evil not to talk about, but to value yourself and say, what I do is worth things. So if you want me, that has a monetary value. And That is the repercussions of what you're talking about throughout the whole value chain as I see, because I sit on the opposite end of the spectrum, which is primarily infrastructure. But even in that space, it is a bad thing to say, I have value and you must pay for it.

Niclas

Now yeah, now you really sound like a Scandinavian because do you think this can be do you think this could be more like different from where we come from, maybe I but also if I agree, but most of the time as individuals, but if a company comes out and say, Yeah, we are we're doing this to earn money, I don't think people think that would that it's weird or it sends bad signals that a company comes out and say we want to earn money.

Jakob

Yeah.

Jakob

Mm-hmm.

Niclas

It can mi you know, I'm in a situation right now where I'm helping out a few a few friends maybe getting their catalogue sold and I'm helping with contacts and you know I then I get r really careful because now I'm doing this to help them, but I also gonna get not of their share but of the buyer's share, I'm gonna get a cut. since I'm helping out, that makes me feel bad. Now it feels like even though I helping them and it's not gonna affect their side, it feels like I'm robbing them now because I'm helping them and because I'm gonna get paid for it. And I think this is so important to I mean first, if you're fair and do everything transparent and you know, of course if there is any shadiness involved, then it's not good. But if you do stuff open, transparent and for a good reason.

Jakob

Mm-hmm.

Niclas

And still feel a bit bad for you getting a few dollars in your pocket. I mean I think that's weird, but as I feel like that, you know, but the reason why I said it you sounded like a Scandinavian, I'm I doubt that an American would feel like that, you know, because they are much more they have a different background, you know. It's much more okay to talk about money there than it is here on our side. So yeah.

Jakob

But I would say even the Scandinavian mindset we refer to is quite ingrained in the European mindset as well when it comes to music industry. Like it's quite consistent. And that's a big issue. So I think that was an interesting commentary to the consequences of this well devaluation of the actual value and how that has repercussions and waves throughout the whole industry.

Niclas

Hmm. Yeah.

Jakob

Miklas, it's been a pleasure talking with you and obviously this is not something that's gonna be solved overnight. But do you have an expectation of a timeline of where you see this going where you believe this will be significantly better by X time?

Niclas

I so yeah, I wish I could say, yeah, next month everything will be solved. No, so let me just what I really would like to do, if there are any creators or you know, anyone that are involved in the creation of a song that are listening to us. When we talk about the complexity of metadata, I just want for a second to simplify what it's all about. I just need to say that if you're a creator, you're never ever gonna get credited and paid for your contribution on a song. Because a song is a term that is it's built up of two different components. And you need to understand which side of the song you belong to be able to get paid for the contribution. A song consists of a musical work, which is what the songwriters and their publishers are responsible for. So a songwriter, in legal terms, are never ever writing a song, they're writing a musical work. You must remember that. And you, as a songwriter, you have help of your publisher and your CMO. A CMO is I maybe said it before, but a collective management organization, an organization that helps you to collect your money when your musical work is used, both in public and in printed form or in this in the stream situation. That's one side. On the other side, we have the sound recording. That's what we can hear. A musical work, we cannot hear that. But the sound recording makes the musical works come to life. And to make that happen, there need multiple roles: producers, guitar players, bass players, drummers, singers, and all that. But all those contributions are simplified under one.

Jakob

Mm.

Jakob

Sorry.

Jakob

Wait, can see?

Niclas

Yeah. So on the sound recording, all the different roles, the drummer, the pr studio producer, bass player, guitar players, singers, all those roles go under one name, and that's performers. So the so all of humans involved in the in the sound recording are performers. And performers are also represented by a CMO, but for the performer side. So the only thing I want the creators to understand is that The song term that we use all the time, there are two different layers under it that you need to understand what it is and where your contributions are going. Most of the time today, to both. But since the money for songwriters and the money for performers are coming from completely different places, you need to make sure that the information about your contribution to both parts. Are you getting to the right places? Otherwise, you will not get paid. And because of that, the lack of knowledge about those simple basic facts, Björn, Max and I also started a foundation in Sweden called Music Rights Awareness Foundation. And together with the UN agency WIPO, the World Intellectual Property Organization, we partnered to build an awareness platform or an education platform. To spread the reality about how the music industry works and what rights you have, but also what obligations you have, how you resolve disputes and conflicts. This platform is called Clip. It was launched in November 2023. It's completely free, funded by WIPO, available in I think nine languages right now, and a lot of videos to watch. You don't have to read too much. And on Clip, we explain exactly how the industry works. And the difference from Clip and other education resources is that Clip is 100% correct because the content on the platform is approved by the music industry through the trade bodies in this industry. So it's there, it's correct. It's there for everyone in the industry that wanna understand how it works. So

Niclas

GoClip.org is the website, or you search for Clip Wipo or GoClip on app stores anywhere, you have it. It's yours, it's free. And if everyone do that now, it will be solved next month, or maybe let's say in a year's time. It was a long answer to it, but there are tools there, there are solutions. And so if everyone just Are more interested and take their responsibility in the value chain, you know, we will find solutions. And I'm very positive because just look at the forecast of income in the music industry for the next ten years. Wow, it's a great business to be in. Especially now since big countries in the world are now becoming licensed. So there's more money coming in than ever. But okay, more people involved than ever as well. But that is Therefore, it's so much more important now than ever to make sure that you have control over your rights. Otherwise you will not get paid.

Jakob

Mm.

Jakob

That's really interesting. And I guess what stands in the way of that is people don't know what they don't know. So having the distribution of knowledge that there can be attained knowledge is a big part of the problem to solve. You know, maybe that's DOS, maybe that's other places, but that's also what you've mentioned. Nicholas, th this was beautiful and I support that journey. And from my side of the industry, which is somewhat the opposite end of the value chain, I've recognized a problem

Niclas

Yeah.

Jakob

as very evident all the way through. So I believe if we can nail what you're talking about and we can actually subconsciously and consciously assign more value, I guess, more assumed associated value, then I think we can be a better industry because in all honesty, this is not the greatest industry when it comes to commercial opportunities and realities. And I think it could be improved by assigning value.

Niclas

Yes. Yeah.

Jakob

Mentally and practically.

Niclas

Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. And a proof of that is if we take Clip, for example, which is the s one part of it, to spread awareness of how the music industry really works. Spread it to others. I mean, it's completely it's a democratic education platform funded by the UN agency. I mean, come on, it's ours. So if you share the links now in the description of this pod. And people just share it with others. That is how we you know we help each other. So yeah, but I'm completely agree with you. It w we it will be good, and we just need to start and start doing it and join up as a especially creators. I mean come on guys, you know it's let's help each other and there are solutions out there.

Jakob

Thank you, Nicholas. It's been beautiful. Thank you so much for joining the podcast.

Niclas

Thanks so much for asking me. This was great. We could have keep on for another hour if so. But thank you. We need to wrap up. Thank you so much, my friend.

Jakob

That's for sure.

Jakob

Thank you.