Muserk is Solving the Royalty Problem

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yeah, I'm sorry. Perfect, okay, well, amazing. So the way that we start the interviews usually, and now when I start recording it's just gonna work a tiny bit, is that I ask the same question for every guest, and that is who are you and what do you do? And the reason why I do that and not do long introductions, I do a short introduction to the episode and the intro, is because I like these informal conversation styles, and I think that sets the scene. So normally if you spend like 30 seconds tops of a minute to do that. Then that would be great. Then we'll talk. So who am I? What am I doing now? Yeah. And then we'll talk a bit about Muserk. Is that how you pronounce it? How would you pronounce it the best way? Muserk. And then we talk about your company, maybe like two to three minutes, really to understand sort of what you do. And what we'll do in this episode is we'll find, follow the usual founder chronology that I usually do.

Hans Peter Roth

So who am I and what am I doing now? Yeah.

Hans Peter Roth

You suck.

Hans Peter Roth

Mm-hmm.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Pretty much for the company's inception and then sort of to where you are now. And that's gonna be the timeline we're gonna operate. And then I'm gonna go in and out of that timeline and ask specific questions. We're gonna cover different aspects of what you do. And I've done 110 episodes, I'm pretty sure that I'll guide you through the process and there won't be any confusion. But the agenda we sent over is sort of like guiding to sort of what we might cover. Yeah, Bright's Journey, Meta Theta and so forth and so on. But it's not an ex...

Hans Peter Roth

Yeah, Bright's Journey, metadata and so forth and so on.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Extensive lists, it's more like, okay, these are the things we'll sort of touch upon. Yeah. Great. Does that provide the clarity for you? I think we can go, yeah, based on that. Last comment is, if you do not disturb on your devices, that's to be preferred. Yeah, of course.

Hans Peter Roth

I think we can go yeah, based on that.

Hans Peter Roth

Yeah, of course.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I just need to figure out how to my phone into not disturb. I know how to do it on my Apple iWatch, but I don't know how to do it. There we go. There we go.

Hans Peter Roth

Just need to figure out how I put my phone in do not disturb. I know how to do it on my Apple iWatch, but I don't know how to do it. Here we go. There we go.

Hans Peter Roth

What'd I do then, you said?

Jakob Wredstrøm

What do with that? You say? If you take the top right of the screen and pull it down. Yeah. Should have the option of changing between different like settings like it says sleep or do not disturb or work or. Oh yeah here we go. I have focus on. Yeah exactly. Do not. Yes. Do not. Okay that's good.

Hans Peter Roth

Yeah, here we go. Have focus. Yeah, exactly. Do not... Yes, do not... Okay, that's good. Cool, so now I'm in do not disturb mode.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Cool, so now I'm in do not disturb mode. Great, is that the same for your computer? I just want to make sure I do that somewhere. Don't know. Next to the time and date, there's like these two bars on top of each other. Yeah. Then... This is on do not disturb. Great. There we go. Great. Cool. Then I am ready.

Hans Peter Roth

I just want to make sure I do that somewhere. Don't know.

Hans Peter Roth

Yeah, yes, it's on do not disturb. There we go.

Hans Peter Roth

Cool. Let's go.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Let's go. Music. Music and twerk. So it's English. Yeah. Music. It's music and twerk. That's actually the story. Music and twerk is Paul's version. Mine is music and berserk because we're tearing up the industry. Okay.

Hans Peter Roth

You suck. Yeah, it's music and berserk. A twerk. That's actually the story. Music and twerk is Paul's version, mine is music and berserk because we're tearing up the industry.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Well, perfect. Then I will start in five seconds.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Hey guys, and welcome back to the Sound Connections podcast. Today we have Hens Pied in the studio. Welcome. Hi there. Thanks for having me, Jakob. This is an episode that I've been looking forward to. I've postponed it two times because of unluck. And today we actually had a communication with the studio. So we both have digital backgrounds, but again, it's fine. Thank you Hens for making it. Hens, for the people who don't know you, who are you and what do?

Hans Peter Roth

Hi there, thanks for having me, Jakob.

Hans Peter Roth

Well, I'm Hans Peter Roth. I live in Denmark and from Denmark I have ventured into the global music business, predominantly working in the publishing side of the industry. So not the sound recording, but the publishing side. And right now I run the commercial side, the business development and the partnership deals for a company called Music, which by now is in volume the biggest

Jakob Wredstrøm

I'm Hans Peter Roth. Live in Denmark and from Denmark I had ventured into the global music business predominantly working in the publishing side of the industry. So not the sound recording but the publishing side and right now I run the commercial side, the business development and the partnership deals for a company called Music, which by now is in volume the biggest

Hans Peter Roth

Rights administrator in the US market. We have more than 20 million songs or compositions working in our Blue Matter patented backend. Sorry, I got all the hooray words in that one. So that's basically what we do. We manage works data, link it to sound recordings and collect monies and pass it on to the rights owners at, and I have to say this, an incredible speed and accuracy, because if I didn't mean that, I wouldn't be in this industry.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Rights administrator in the US market. Have more than 20 million songs or compositions working in our Blue Matter. Got all the hooray words in that one. So that's basically what we do. We manage works data, link it to sound recordings and collect monies and pass it on to the rights owners at, and I have to say this, incredible speed and accuracy because if I didn't mean that, I wouldn't be in this industry. And obviously, rights made a payment is one of the big issues of the music industry and that covers everything from black bucks to efficiency to... Know, rightful allocation. So it's a very big topic and it's one of the things that the music industry has not been able to solve at scale. There's a lot of players like yourself that are already doing good work. And I think we'll cover all of that today. Your sort of your journey from the very inception of the company, being a co-owner of the company, but also the particular issues in music when it comes to this specific field. But to sort of understand your role a bit more, like what does it mean you do commercial work in this company? Like what specifically do you do? So we started back in 17 by getting our first content ID deal for the US market, meaning that we were able to collect the publishing from the YouTube.

Hans Peter Roth

So we started back in 17 by getting our first content ID deal for the US market, meaning that we were able to collect the publishing from the YouTube backend in the US. For some reason, and you have to ask Google why that is, the entire way of administering rights in the US is different from almost everywhere else in the world. So it's a very isolated way of doing it and we can maybe dive into those details.

Jakob Wredstrøm

And rights in the US is different from almost everywhere else in the world. So it's a very isolated way of doing it and we can maybe dive into those details. But so it was hard for anybody outside the US to get their money from the US, particularly in what we call the mechanical, the reproduction side of the music. In the US, performance is BMI ASCAP, you've got GMR, you've got SESEC, but the mechanical side does not have a society like you have.

Hans Peter Roth

It was hard for anybody outside the US to get their money from the US, particularly in what we call the mechanical, the reproduction side of the music. In the US, performance is BMI, ASCAP, you've got GMR, you've got SESAC, but the mechanical side does not have a society like you have in France where SESEM, SGRM is one. You have Gamer that does both performance and mechanicals and so forth. That's the generality around the world is you have both types of rights.

Jakob Wredstrøm

In France, where SSEM, STRM is one, you have Gamer that does both performance and mechanicals and so forth. That's the generality around the world is you have both types of rights managed in one entity. There is no one in the US, there is a society for mechanicals. So we took that business internationally because with my background from online in Europe, I knew that nobody was getting their money from the US. So that's basically the connection. Paul had a company.

Hans Peter Roth

Managed in one entity. Is no one in the US, there is a society for mechanicals. So we took that business internationally because with my background from online in Europe, I knew that nobody was getting their money from the US. So that's basically the connection. Paul had a company, tech company that had a rights access to the exploitation in the US and I had the knowledge of who.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Tech company that had a rights access to the exploitation in the US and I had the knowledge of who is in need of that service. So that started with CMOs, collective management organizations, and now we've brought it into publishers, expanding our service and just based on that, creating more relationships with the people who use the music and creating more relationships with the people who...

Hans Peter Roth

Is in need of that service. So that started with CMOs, Collective Management Organizations, and now we've brought it into publishers, expanding our service and just based on that, creating more relationships with the people who use the music and creating more relationships with the people who own or control or represent the music. So that's where I said I'd try to put those two ends together commercially. And then music and Blue Matter facilitates

Jakob Wredstrøm

Own or control or represent the music. So that's where I said I'd try to put those two ends together commercially and then music and blue matter facilitates that process with as little manpower as possible. It's very interesting because you say in 2017 this was the case that no one's getting paid and it's only eight years ago and you know one of the things I keep on being surprised with in the music industry is how I'm just going to say dysfunctional it wasn't

Hans Peter Roth

That process with as little manpower as possible.

Hans Peter Roth

Scary.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Big D.B. still is. And that's of course one of the big issues with the music industry and why it might not be that attractive for many different players. But what has happened the last eight years? Like have you seen that there's been an effectivization of these payments? Is this like a typical thing that happens now or are you still very dependent on partnerships to make that happen?

Hans Peter Roth

Mean, we can only exist if we get data that we can put in. It's kind of like I can have the best Ferrari, but if it's all a dirt road, it doesn't really matter. Or if everybody else is driving horse and buggy, it doesn't matter either. This connectivity has to be at par. So the partnership is extremely important with the users of the music and also understanding how they

Jakob Wredstrøm

I mean, we can only exist if we get data that we can put in. It's kind of like I can have the best Ferrari, but if it's all a dirt road, it doesn't really matter. Or if everybody else is driving horse and buggy, it doesn't matter either. This connectivity has to be at par. So the partnership is extremely important with the users of the music and also understanding how they

Hans Peter Roth

Aggregate their data. And then on the user side, of course, it's about being able to manage, as our head of technology says, we have to be able to care with the heroes as well as the zeros. And particularly on online, there are tons, with all due respect for all the creators out there, there are tons of zeros. But we actually do believe that the zero knowledge is equally good, because as you said,

Jakob Wredstrøm

Aggregate their data. And then on the user side, of course, it's about being able to manage, as our head of technology says, we have to be able to care with the heroes as well as the zeros. And particularly on online, there are tons, with all due respect for all the creators out there, are tons of zeros. But we actually do believe that the zero knowledge is equally good because as you said,

Hans Peter Roth

The history of less than optimal processes in the music industry has led people to believe that, if I haven't heard anything, I haven't been managed. But saying, hey, I have your song here. I know you've written, I love you. And I've looked for it and I found it zero times or I found it four times used in Salt Lake City, Utah. But that does not give you a big paycheck to go and buy your house on Cote d'Azur.

Jakob Wredstrøm

The history of less than optimal processes in the music industry has led people to believe that, if I haven't heard anything, I haven't been managed. But saying, hey, I have your song here. I know you've written, I love you. And I've looked for it and I found it zero times or I found it four times used in Salt Lake City, Utah. But that does not give you a big paycheck to go and buy your house on Côte d'Azur.

Hans Peter Roth

So the serial product has a value and I think we've been able to convey that message to a lot of our customers as well as knowing everything even that which has no commercial value can have commercial value.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So the serial product actually has a value and I think we've been able to convey that message to a lot of our customers as well as knowing everything, even that which has no commercial value can have commercial value. So what is the value then? Like if there's no commercial value, what is the benefit? The benefit is that the people who've written the music, who's written the song should be comfortable

Hans Peter Roth

The benefit is that the people who've written the music, who's written the song, should be comfortable that they are being adequately managed, that they're being adequately looked after and not just, and not disregarded. So I think that's the value, particularly for CMOs. Publishers will always have, for obvious reasons, a very commercial approach. I mean, they don't go and sign talent.

Jakob Wredstrøm

That they are being adequately managed, that they're being adequately looked after and not just this and not disregarded. So I think that's the value, particularly for CMOs. Publishers will always have, for obvious reasons, a very commercial approach. Mean, they don't go and sign talent that does not have a perspective of becoming popular. Why would they do that? But CMOs, on the other hand, are supposed to carry everybody.

Hans Peter Roth

That does not have a perspective of becoming popular. Why would they do that? But CMOs, on the other hand, are supposed to carry everybody. Even the guy sitting and doing two tones in his basement and claiming that it's the next Mozart, even though he's not, that guy, that girl has a place to go with their music. And the CMOs have to carry that and show that person, we are also looking after you, not only looking after Lady Gaga or Bruno Mars.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Even the guy sitting and doing two tones in his basement and claiming that it's the next Mozart, even though he's not, that guy, that girl has a place to go with their music. And the CMOs have to carry that and show that person, are also looking after you, not only looking after Lady Gaga or Bruno Mars. One concept I'm quite interested in lately, I've been the last couple of years, is the concept of the perceived value of music. And there's many different layers to that. There's of course from a consumer layer, which is very difficult to sort of unfold, and we won't do that now, but there's also from the creator side, the value of music. Because one of the things that I've experienced a lot, which is very natural, I've done it to myself so much, is devaluing your own contribution, or devaluing your own worth. Because there's a direct association, again, I did five years of conservatory, and...

Hans Peter Roth

Hmm.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Even there, and I did the rhythmic music consortium in Denmark, which is quite recognized as being one of the best music schools in Europe, even there, the association with the commercial aspect of music is quite, you know, whatever happens, right? And the ripple effects of that through how people try to pursue careers in music, how people also want to pay for music if the assets don't have their own value associated to what they do is quite, it's problematic.

Hans Peter Roth

Mm.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So like one of the things that I believe you also saying here is putting value to your rights ownership, whether or you make money or not is a key factor. And I think that's one of my biggest concerns is how do we increase the perceived value on many different levels. And I think for the creators, I guess that also has an effect.

Hans Peter Roth

You're talking right into a fundamental problem of this industry is it is a creative industry. The fuel of the industry is creativity. That apart from few people like you maybe because you've done that part in our business, that does not translate into commercial interest, metadata, registration, all those kind of things. That disconnect is one of the biggest and most fundamental problems of the industry.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You're talking right into a fundamental problem of this industry is it is a creative industry. The fuel of the industry is creativity. That apart from few people like you maybe because you've done that part in our business that does not translate into commercial interest, metadata, registration, all those kind of things. That disconnect is one of the biggest and most fundamental problems of the industry.

Hans Peter Roth

As a musician or as a songwriter in the industry to create, not to monetize. So that is exactly the biggest problem. One of the biggest problems here is how do we make sure that there is enough interest in the creative side that enables the commercial side to monetize and remunerate in a timely and correct manner?

Jakob Wredstrøm

As a musician or as a songwriter in the industry to create, not to monetize. That is exactly the biggest problem. One of the biggest problems is how do we make sure that there is enough interest in the creative side that enables the commercial side to monetize and immunorate in a timely and correct manner. But you're absolutely right that schism between being artistic true in the light of commercial exploitation and what that perceived could do to you and your integrity is another aspect or another aspect of that coin, which is the disconnect between the business and the creation. Yeah. And the confusing part is

Hans Peter Roth

But you're absolutely right that schism between being artistic true in the light of commercial exploitation and what that perceived could do to you and your integrity is another aspect or another aspect of that coin, which is a disconnect between the business and the creation.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Like in most industries, even industries that doesn't make a lot of money, there's still a very set expectation of being paid. Whether or not you provide a lot of value, little value, there's a set expectation. In music that, in many at least growth careers, does not have that expectation whatsoever. But again, most music is consumed. Maybe not a lot, but it's still consumed, which means it should be.

Hans Peter Roth

Mm.

Jakob Wredstrøm

It should be compensated, but it just isn't at scale. And very much back to much more complex problems than just, know, rightful allocation. It's also registration from users. But again, it's all a part of the whole thing. So what do you believe that in actual monetary value that people, know, the industry has missed out on like eight years ago before you went into the US? What was the figures? What was the actual consequences of not getting that payment?

Hans Peter Roth

Well, I can put it like this. So we started out getting 30,000 works from a couple of small non Anglo societies. So marginal languages, at least from a US market, we got those works in June 2017, started working on them, ingesting, claiming, matching. And in August 17, YouTube dumped half a million dollars in our AdSense account.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Well, I can put it like this. So we started out getting 30,000 works from a couple of small non-Anglo societies. So marginal languages, at least from a US market. We got those works in June 2017, started working on them, ingesting, claiming, matching. And in August 17, YouTube dumped half a million dollars in our absence. Wow, okay. So 30,000 works of non-English origin. So there is a real actual monetizable gap as well. And we've only seen that grow as our business has grown as well. It's not insignificant for sure. And you would claim that, you know, if these songs, these works were not claimed before, so they were seeing none of that revenue? Nothing. Not from the US at least.

Hans Peter Roth

For 30,000 works of non-English origin. So there is a real actual monetizable gap as well. And we've only seen that grow as our business has grown as well. It's not insignificant for sure.

Hans Peter Roth

Nothing, not from the US at least.

Jakob Wredstrøm

What happened with those unclaimed renominations? What happened to it before you claimed it? Was that just in their system? Did they save it or it's just profits? So most DSPs that aren't trying to pull a fast one will accrue those royalties according to the prevailing rates or tariffs in their market and say, okay, I have the sound recording.

Hans Peter Roth

So most DSPs that aren't trying to pull a fast one will accrue those royalties according to the prevailing rates or tariffs in their market and say, okay, I have the sound recording. I know that the publishing should probably be around here. I reserve that amount and wait for someone to come and collect it. And if nobody comes after

Jakob Wredstrøm

I know that the publishing should probably be around here. I reserve that amount and wait for someone to come and collect it. And if nobody comes after within whatever the statutory limit is within that given jurisdiction, then the money is of course activated on the balance sheet for that company. Yes. That's interesting. And I think I'm not quite sure if that's what you're speaking about. Others will then do what they call a residual.

Hans Peter Roth

Within whatever the statutory limit is within that given jurisdiction, then the money is of course activated on the balance sheet for that company.

Hans Peter Roth

Others will then do what they call a residual payout or an accrual payout. And we see that in the US, for instance, is that after a certain time, then whatever has not been allocated will be pro rata paid out to those who have claimed. So it will go back to the creative community somehow, not correctly, but broadly.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Pay out or an accrual pay out. And we see that in the US, for instance, is that after a certain time, then whatever has not been allocated will be pro rata paid out to those who have claimed. So it will go back to the creative community somehow, not correctly or broadly. And obviously that's super important. But is there a pie growth in that aspect as well? Basically what you're saying, the way that I'm it, is generally speaking, obviously there's admin fees and all this kind of stuff, but generally speaking, what happened before that, it was just not rightfully allocated. Someone was most likely seeing that money, even though it wasn't the right people. But is there some plus from this as well? Are the industry seeing more worth as well now when it's rightfully allocated? Or what's the math on that?

Hans Peter Roth

I it's a very interesting conversation because I've heard this a lot is that people talk about there's a pie to be split. So there's a pie and then there's some of the pie goes to the sound recording and some of the pie goes to the publishers and the songwriters and whatnot. I don't agree that there is a pie because that limits or pre-defines

Jakob Wredstrøm

It's a very interesting conversation because I've heard this a lot is that people talk about there's a pie to be split. So there's a pie and then there's some of the pie goes to the sound recording and some of the pie goes to the publishers and the songwriters and whatnot. I don't agree that there is a pie because that limits or pre-defines the scope of your commercial activity.

Hans Peter Roth

The scope of your commercial activity, there's a value and the value is whatever it is in that given context. A pie.

Jakob Wredstrøm

There's a value and the value is whatever it is in that given context.

Hans Peter Roth

I don't agree that there is something to be split between labels and publishers. That's absolutely wrong. Because now we are at a tug of war between the people who represent the creators. And it's a magic trick going, look over here, there's nothing over here. This shouldn't be about a tug of war between labels and publishers. This is about publishers, CMOs getting the value that is correct for their rights set.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I don't agree that there is something to be split between labels and publishers. That's absolutely wrong. Because now we are at a tug of war between the people who represent the creators. And it's a magic trick going, look over here, there's nothing over here. This shouldn't be about a tug of war between labels and publishers. This is about publishers, GMOs getting the value that is correct for their rights set.

Hans Peter Roth

And the labels getting the value that's correct for their right set. It's kind of like, if you're making sausages and you have two kinds of meat, the meat providers don't negotiate an overall pie and then split it between ham and beef.

Jakob Wredstrøm

And the labels getting the value that is correct for their right set. It's kind of like, if you're making sausages and you have two kinds of meat, the meat providers don't negotiate an overall pie and then split it between ham and beef. The ham guy will do a price for his ham and the beef guy will do a price for his beef. And they have nothing to do with each other. And I think that's the same thing for the industry.

Hans Peter Roth

The ham guy will do a price for his ham and the beef guy will do a price for his beef and they have nothing to do with each other. And I think that's the same thing for the industry. So isolated speaking, no. Being more accurate doesn't do anything for the rights owners themselves, but being accurate and knowing what your repertoire and your strength is can help you grow the commercial value of your overall proposition.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So, isolated speaking, no. Being more accurate doesn't do anything for the rights owners themselves, but being accurate and knowing what your repertoire and your strength is can help you grow the commercial value of your overall proposition. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. But one of the things that I'm really interested in right now is, let's look at emerging markets. We have a lot of employees in Africa, and even though we only have a few and we only have three in Nigeria, obviously Nigeria is a very booming place when it comes to music rights. And I just saw today, or maybe it was yesterday, they just announced MusicTech Nigeria, which obviously is very, very exciting. But one of the most interesting...

Hans Peter Roth

Enormous.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Perspectives I've had on music value was interviewing Dr. Chinito, who's a very established copyright figure in Nigeria. And he talked about music as being the new crude oil of Nigeria. And actually, if you run the math, it's really, really interesting. I believe the GDP per capita in Nigeria is around 2,200 US dollars per year, which is very, low. But in theory, the worth of music being consumed, exported from Nigeria, is the same as wherever it comes from all around the world. And if you look at, let's say, US, that's closer to 80,000 US dollars per capita per year in GDP per capita, there's a difference in sort of, in what's called comparative value of 40x. So someone doing well in Nigeria exporting the same amount of music, value of music from US to Nigeria is 40x, which means the value is so much higher from Nigerian export than it is from... you as expert when it comes to the individual lives being touched. And this is where right for that right to location really becomes important in my aspect because the value of music, which I believe is one of the most interesting and complex philosophical questions in music can really be exemplified in the impact from these growing economies. Like if someone in Nigeria is rightfully allocated for the success, the impact of that can be enormous for those right holders, right soldiers. And this is where for me this question, this what you're doing really makes a lot of sense in my practical understanding of what's going on. Could you maybe comment that? Do you have anything to elaborate on those thoughts? I can only say that I recognize that we work with Mdundo. I don't know if you're aware of that company, the streaming and download platform, which is probably one of the biggest local DSPs in Africa. And one of their biggest problems is

Hans Peter Roth

I can only say that I recognize that we work with Mdundo, I don't know if you are aware of that company, the streaming and download platform, which is probably one of the biggest local DSPs in Africa. And one of their biggest problems is who owns what. Again, who owns what where. A lot of successful artists, performing artists write their own songs, but that is left behind.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Who owns what again who owns what where a lot of successful artists performing artists write their own songs but that is left behind so

Hans Peter Roth

So. Well, going one step back, you will always get paid when your asset is played. I give you a file of me singing hallelujah. Now it doesn't matter how poorly described that asset is, you know as the DSP that it's been used, so you allocate the money to that asset, regardless of what it's called or whether it's correct or not.

Jakob Wredstrøm

One step back, you will always get paid when your asset is played. I give you a file of me singing hallelujah. Now it doesn't matter how poorly described that asset is, you know as the DSP that it's been used. So you allocate the money to that asset, regardless of what it's called or whether it's correct or not. The publishing on the other hand is left behind. So that is the biggest challenge in Africa I think is.

Hans Peter Roth

The publishing on the other hand is left behind, right? So that is the biggest challenge in Africa, I think is how do the songwriters become associated with that exploitation in a market that is, to my understanding, very much based on live performances and live acts. There's not a huge label publishing industry because of, as you said, the value. It's hard to justify back in the day a release of a vinyl.

Jakob Wredstrøm

How do the songwriters become associated with that exploitation in a market that is, to my understanding, very much based on live performances and live acts? There's not a huge label publishing industry because of, as you said, the value. It's hard to justify back in the day a release of a vinyl if the purchase power...

Hans Peter Roth

If the purchase power was not there among the consumer element. So those things, think Africa is playing a bit catch up. mean, it's huge a generalization because Africa is not a country. It is a continent to those out there who should have forgotten and Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa are very different from some of the other countries and so forth and so on. So this is grossly.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Was not there among the consumer element. So those things, think Africa is playing a big catch up. I mean, it's huge a generalization because Africa is not a country. It is a continent to those out there who should have forgotten and Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa are very different from some of the other countries and so forth and so on. So this is grossly oversimplifying the things, but I think that's part of it is the inheritance.

Hans Peter Roth

Oversimplifying the things, but I think that's part of it is the inheritance of the infrastructure of the industry.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Of the infrastructure of the industry. So going a bit back to the story, so in August of 2017, if I remember correctly, there was half a million dollars from sort of YouTube allocation that handed. So what did that make you think? Okay, there's a bigger business than you thought, or was it exactly what you thought? No, mean, originally, Usec was a micro sync licensing platform. This was just a site bar kind of thing.

Hans Peter Roth

No, mean, originally, Music was a microsync licensing platform. This was just a sidebar kind of thing. Hey, we have this opportunity. Let's offer it to rights owners so we can see if we can help them. But we have this microsync licensing platform over here for YouTube and whatnot. But that just made us realize, wait a minute. I mean, maybe there's a bigger problem here than we thought.

Jakob Wredstrøm

We have this opportunity, let's offer it to rights owners so we can see if we can help them. But we have this micro sync licensing platform over here for YouTube and whatnot. But that just made us realize, wait a minute. mean, maybe there's a bigger problem here than we thought. Maybe there's an opportunity for a company like us to leverage that technology quicker and faster. B2C, extremely tough market, as you will know as well. I mean, it's just...

Hans Peter Roth

Maybe there's an opportunity for a company like us to leverage that technology quicker and faster. B2C, extremely tough market, as you will know as well. mean, it just takes a lot of money.

Jakob Wredstrøm

It takes a lot, a lot, a lot of money, a lot of gas to get there. A B2B, if you know how to move in the industry, can be much faster. So we kind of just pivoted there and went, okay, maybe we should go after this segment because there are many more out there. And it turns out that's what we did. mean, just, people kept knocking on our doors. The music industry moves slow, I would say, but if you have word of mouth.

Hans Peter Roth

Gas to get there. A B2B, if you know how to move in the industry, can be much faster. So we kind of just pivoted there and went, okay, maybe we should go after this segment because there are many more out there. And it turns out that's what we did. mean, we just people kept knocking on our doors. The music industry moves slow, I would say. But if you have word of mouth, you can move pretty fast because it's a small pond.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You can move pretty fast because it's a small pond. It's a relatively small pond. if people say those guys, because there's a lot of rubla, a lot of people will come in and say, I can fix the entire world for you. But if people trust you, you can move fast. And I think that's what we did. So briefly speaking, 30,000 in August 17.

Hans Peter Roth

It's a relatively small pond. if people say those guys, because there's a lot of hoopla, a lot of people will come in and say, I can fix the entire world for you. But if people trust you, you can move fast. And I think that's what we did. So shortly. Briefly speaking, 30,000 in August 17. Then we just kept on onboarding more customers for YouTube. Then we started doing the other DSPs, Spotify, Apple. Then came the MLC, which I think you would know about is. So it's not a society. I have to tell people that again. There's still no society in the US. There is an agency government mandated under the Music Millennium Act that says the MLC can.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Then we just kept on onboarding and more customers for YouTube. Then we started doing the other DSPs, Spotify, Apple. Then came the MLC, which I think you would know about as... So it's not a society. I have to tell people that again. There's still no society in the US. There is an agency government mandated under the Music Millennium Act that says the MLC can collect money from subscription, audio streaming and downloads only.

Hans Peter Roth

Collect money from subscription, audio streaming and downloads only. That's it. And they can pay it out to the people who register. But the MLC cannot give any rights away the other way out, like reciprocal agreements or sub-publishing deals or anything like that. So the MLC came and people said, now you're going to be dead.

Jakob Wredstrøm

That's it. And they can pay it out to the people who register. But the MLC cannot give any rights away the other way out, like reciprocal agreements or some publishing deals or anything like that. So the MLC came and people said, oh, now you're going to be there. And we thought maybe, and we were kind of thinking whether we should bid, because we knew a lot about the US market, should we maybe bid to be one of the vendors for that entity? And we just went, we just think we're going to stay on the outside and see where it goes. Because if it

Hans Peter Roth

And we thought maybe, and we were kind of thinking whether we should bid because we knew a lot about the US market. Should we maybe bid to be one of the vendors for that entity? And we just went, we just think we're going to stay on the outside and see where it goes. Because if it, we weren't sure it was going to be perfect. So when the MLC started first, January 21, we were up to 4 million works. And now as of this,

Jakob Wredstrøm

We weren't sure it was going to be perfect. So when the MLC started first January 21, we were up to 4 million works. And now as of this January, we have more than 20 million works. So one could say that we were right in our assumption in that there is still going to be, that was a huge market for us and we've seen this going global as well. So I kind of forget your question, but I think that the answer is

Hans Peter Roth

January, we have more than 20 million works. So one could say that we were right in our assumption in that there is still going to be, that was a huge market for us and we've seen this going global as well. So I kind of forget your question, but I think that the answer is yes. And I think I would love to call it strategic vision and

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yes. And I think I would love to call it strategic vision and acute awareness. I think as many interesting things happen in life, it is kind of an accident, kind of an intuitive, wise decision. But we have stayed extremely focused on saying there is one problem in one area. Let's fix that first and then build on that. I think

Hans Peter Roth

I think as many interesting things happen in life, it is kind of an accident, kind of an intuitive, wise decision. But we have stayed extremely focused on saying there is one problem in one area. Let's fix that first and then build on that. think a lot of the solutions in this industry come in and go, hey, $9 billion left on the floor. want to find them all.

Jakob Wredstrøm

A lot of the solutions in this industry come in and go, hey, nine billion dollars left on the floor. I want to find them all. can't. And I think you're twisting up on something really, really interesting, and I'll maybe bring my own perspective to it. What are you basically saying is you didn't know there was an opportunity and you sort of fell over it and then of course, leaned into it. But I hear this over and over again. And an analogy that's very close to me right now is I obviously run a company with 70 people and that's busy in itself, but I'm always a bit stupid. So I just, I just finished my second post-graduate masters and handed that in, guess yesterday. And I did my thesis. I did my thesis on music tech financing. And the analogy I want to bring to the table is quite interesting. So obviously I've had the podcast, I've raised a lot of capital for within music tech and we consult and help a lot of companies to do so. But diving into this space, I found out there is.

Hans Peter Roth

Congrats.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Zero academia on music tech financing. Zero. There's one PhD dissertation from California about financialization of the media. There's a few from England talking about imagined metrics within music tech financing, but there's no research whatsoever. And it's taken me two years to do it and there's a hundred page report that I'm gonna publish soon. But that's the core of it. We have a whole industry talking about music technology. Like we have around 30, 30 industry organizations, well, country organizations for music tech. We have a lot of works in music financing conferences, but in academia, which is the bedrock of any consensual understanding of things, Ciro exists. And I see this not just in music tech financing, which is sort of my specialty in the music industry, but also you and metadata or rifle renomination. Like there is close to no bedrock. Obviously now there's more than before, but that is what I see in the music industry. Like it's not just the commercialization that's lacking behind. It's data. It's proof. is a consolidation of information. And that's what, for me, what returns as a podcast shows over and over and over again. The people who stumbled into a business model are the predominant way of making business in music. because there is not that opportunity foundation that is for all to see and grab. maybe that's, so I'm understanding maybe also interpreting a bit too much, but I think that's really interesting from a takeaway that obviously when you started in 2017, there wasn't an understanding there was an issue, but even you did not understand how much it was and was surprised. Do you think there's other opportunities now in music tech and maybe within your space where there might be similar things in the future, where there's like things that's unknown? what the potential is, but you may be curious about. Well, first of all, say that the accidental opportunity, I think, is universal in any industry. if I don't remember it wrong, but I don't think that Zuckerberg set out to build Facebook. It was kind of a thing that they did in a certain area. And then, hey, wait a minute, it can go here. I think so that is probably true for many businesses, many industries is I did this. Wait a minute.

Hans Peter Roth

Well, first of all, say that the accidental opportunity, I think is universal in any industry. I if I don't remember it wrong, but I don't think that Zuckerberg set out to build Facebook. It was kind of a thing that they did in a certain area. And then, hey, wait a minute, it can go here. I think so that is probably true for many businesses, many industries is I did this, wait a minute. I could do that. And then you start doing it and you shift.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I could do that. And then you start doing it and you shift. And that's why they invented the word pivot, right? Because that's what you do a lot of the time when you're when you're an entrepreneur and you start a company. But there are opportunities there. And you have to be very careful on how you approach it.

Hans Peter Roth

That's why they invented the word pivot, right? Because that's what you do a lot of the time when you're an entrepreneur and you start a company. But there are opportunities there and you have to be very careful on how you approach it. My take on it is a bit that there's a feeling in the music industry that people ought to plunder it. I think it comes from the narrative that you have a how much ever it is at the latest. Let's say it's a 29 billion dollar industry a year. And there seems to be an understanding or a perception outside of the industry that

Jakob Wredstrøm

My take on it is a bit that there's a feeling in the music industry that people ought to plunder it. I think it comes from the narrative that you have a how much ever it is at the latest. Let's say it's a $29 billion industry a year. And there seems to be an understanding or a perception outside of the industry that $29 billion is all this font because you have this, we have this tendency to say

Hans Peter Roth

That $29 billion is all disfunked because we have this tendency to say, we work in the music industry, it's disfunked, there are problems. Then people think, wait a minute, that's a $29 billion industry, I can fix all of it. That's fundamentally not true. There's tons of stuff that works really, really well, or works well enough that it's not worth your while to take on a huge project to fix it.

Jakob Wredstrøm

We work in the music industry, it's this fucked. There are problems. Then people think, wait a minute, that's a billion industry. I can fix all of it. That's fundamentally not true. There's tons of stuff that works really, really well. All works well enough that it's not worth your while to take on a huge project to fix it. So yes, there are opportunities in the industry if you can figure out how.

Hans Peter Roth

So yes, there are opportunities in the industry if you can figure out how to solve very concrete manageable problems. But if everybody wants to take 10 % of the top, then it does need more than 10 services and there's no money left for the right. I think that's a bit of the, it's not a $29 billion TAM for companies coming from the outside.

Jakob Wredstrøm

To solve very concrete, manageable problems. But if everybody wants to take 10 % off the top, then it does need more than 10 services. has no money left for the right. I think that's a bit of the... It's not a $29 billion tab for companies coming from the outside or in. It's very, very much smaller than that. And unless you set your ambitions in relation to a very much smaller potential market,

Hans Peter Roth

Very, very much smaller than that. And unless you set your ambitions in relation to a very much smaller potential market, you will probably not succeed.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You will probably not succeed. No, I agree. And that's also one of the primary things I comment on founders that's raising capital, for example, is just like whatever rule book you have of how much capital you want to raise and what your potential is, just throw it out the window. Please, like you're playing a different industry with different rules and I'm not saying you cannot hit it big. You can, but most likely not the way that you told that things should go as a startup. It's a different game. It's very valuable in its own right, but you're not going to raise 100 million US dollars and your sum is not going to be 200 million dollars in revenue per year. It just simply isn't. That is, nothing is easy, that is realistic in some industries. Very, very rare in music. On the other hand, an extremely solid industry. It is. My experience is...

Hans Peter Roth

It's, but on the other hand, it's an extremely solid industry. My experience is people don't shop around all the time for something new. If you have the, that's the fun part. I keep on saying that to people. Yes, I'm in tech. Yes, I'm in IP, but what I'm basically in is a people's business. That is the underlying.

Jakob Wredstrøm

People don't shop around all the time for something new. That's the funny part. I keep on saying that to people. Yes, I'm in tech. Yes, I'm in IP. But what I'm basically in is a people's business. That is the underlying narrative of the music industry. And it's not just the composer or the author or the artist. It's the label people and it's the publishing people and it's the society people.

Hans Peter Roth

Narrative of the music industry and it's not just the composer or the author or the artist, it's the label people and it's the publishing people and it's the society people. There is an extreme amount of personal engagement in this industry and I could be wrong but as I see it, it is a

Jakob Wredstrøm

There is an extreme amount of personal engagement in this industry. And I could be wrong, as I see it, it is a much stronger factor than it is in many other industries. I tell myself, I could be wrong, that the iron industry doesn't have this same degree of personal investment.

Hans Peter Roth

Much stronger factor than it is in many other industries. I tell myself I could be wrong that the iron industry doesn't have this same degree of personal investment on an emotional level as this industry has. I could be wrong and sorry for the people who work in the iron steel industry. I could be totally downing you on this one, but that's my intuitive take on it. It's a people's business. So all my tech...

Jakob Wredstrøm

On an emotional level as this industry has. I could be wrong and sorry for the people who work in the iron steel industry. I could be totally downing you on this one, but that's my intuitive take on it. It's a people's business. So all my tech cannot compensate for the personal relationships. And you have to have that in mind as well. But I think you're right. And, know, I'll give my own personal comments to this and I might provoke a few people, but like I think the music industry oftentimes claim itself to be a meritocracy. Like it's based on merit.

Hans Peter Roth

Cannot compensate for the personal relationships and you have to have that mind as well.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I would believe that to be journey speaking not true. You know, I'll take myself as an example, right? You know, I've been running this podcast for two years. Many people don't know what I do, but my, way that I get into conferences and mentor and all these kinds of things has nothing to do with what I actually do. Like the people who invite me just know who I talk with and I see that over and over again. And of course that's my advantage and I do believe I'm qualified, they wouldn't know. Like honestly speaking, a lot of the people that invited me to stuff, some of it I'm not public about, like you have no evidence that what you're inviting me to, I'm qualified to do. But I'm associated to this person because of the podcast and you know, that has ripple effects. And my career in music industry, which frankly speaking, isn't that big compared to where we make money other places, but still is just based on my association to other people. And I'm reaping the benefits, but that's not meritocracy. Like it just isn't. Because if people really knew what I do, if I was public about my work, much more than do so, it would be a different story, but it's not. Like I'm pretty much stealth. So, and I see this over and over again. So it is a people's business for good and for worse. But you know, as you also said, it was the word of mouth for you guys that made it grow fast and be impactful. And obviously that is speaking back into the relationship. Like you need a person you trust to tell you that this is good in order to act on you. It's not something you just blow open the doors with. It needs to happen that way. Agreed. And I actually want to go back to the academia part, we can, that you spoke about. So the music industry now sees a huge influx of money for assets or for rights. So Wall Street or whatever.

Hans Peter Roth

Great. And it's, I actually want to go back to the academia part if we can, that you spoke about is that is, so the music industry now sees a huge influx of money for assets or for rights, right? So there is, so. Wall Street or wherever, it's like, yeah, this is the new real estate or whatever. It's a recurring revenue stream and it speaks to all the ping words that I want to have when I do my business plan. We cannot recognize that as a tech company in the music industry, even though I've found it is a belief that if it's not for us, you would not reap the benefits when you buy the assets. So that's one of the, that's very interesting. They said that.

Jakob Wredstrøm

It's like, yeah, this is the new real estate or whatever. It's of a current revenue stream and it speaks to all the ping words that I want to have when I do my business plan. We cannot recognize that as a tech company in the music industry, even though I fundamentally believe that if it's not for us, you would not reap the benefits when you buy the assets. That's one of the, that's very interesting. Said that people glaze over when you start telling them

Hans Peter Roth

People glaze over when you start telling them why things are the way they are in the music industry and what you're trying to do to fix them. They just glaze over and go bong. I mean, because it's so odd what goes on.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Why things are the way they are in the music industry and what you're trying to do to fix them. They just glaze over and go bop. I mean, because it's so odd what goes on.

Hans Peter Roth

Online music is kind of like you buying a product in the supermarket, but the content description is not there. If music was nourishment of food, it would not be allowed to be sold the way it is today. You can issue a song, you can release a song without anybody knowing who wrote it.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Online music is kind of like you buying a product in the supermarket, but the content description is not there. If music was nourishment of food, it would not be allowed to be sold the way it is today. You can issue a song, can release a song without anybody knowing who wrote it. So go down to the shop and buy a pate. If there was no content description, you didn't know the calories or the fat or the...

Hans Peter Roth

So go down to the shop and buy a pate. If there was no content description, you didn't know the calories or the fat or the carbs or anything would never be allowed on the market. So those understandings around what it's not because it's a stupid industry. It's just a weird industry because you can produce without paying. That's weird. It's like.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Cops or anything would never be allowed on the market. So those understandings around the world, it's not because it's stupid industry, it's just a weird industry because you can produce without paying. That's weird. It's like I produce a car and I might tell the people which motor is in there and then maybe those who produce the motor will get paid. Doesn't exist anywhere else. Unless you understand, unless you...

Hans Peter Roth

I produce a car and I might tell people which motor is in there and then maybe those who produce the motor will get paid. Doesn't exist anywhere else. And unless you embrace that weirdness, it's going to be hard for you to succeed as well and manage your expectations.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Embrace that weirdness. It's going to be hard for you to succeed as well and manage your expectations. So now you're in place in the company where you're sort managing 20 million tracks plus. And I'm assuming that, you know, since you were at 4 million when MLC started and I've also had them on the podcast, like that's a growth trajectory you're still on. So where are you guys going? Like what's the future of you guys?

Hans Peter Roth

So the next place is taking what we do in the US and take it to other markets that are less than optimal. Are, I see, I mean, that is not a secret, but 75 % of the earth's is account for about 15 % of the online music value. That's Africa and that's APAC.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So the next place is taking what we do in the US and take it to other markets that are less than optimal. Are, I see, I mean, that is not a secret, but 75 % of the earth's is account for about 15 % of the online music value. That's Africa and that's APAC. And the rest, 25%, 30 % account for...

Hans Peter Roth

And the rest 25%, 30 % account for 85 % that's Europe and US and to some extent, Latam. So we are working very closely with our partners in Africa because I believe that market in itself is extremely interesting, both from a cultural and a, but also from an opportunist point of view. But right now it's about taking what we do right now and broadening it to.

Jakob Wredstrøm

85 % that's Europe and US and to some extent, Latam. So we are working very closely with our partners in Africa because I believe that market in itself is extremely interesting, both from a cultural and a, but also from an opportunities point of view. But right now it's about taking what we do right now and broadening it to more.

Hans Peter Roth

Partners. For instance, we have global access now to YouTube on all three rights types. So we have a publishing global PLA, we've got a sound recording global PLA and we've got a video global PLA. Those things are not easy to come by. Our partner manager at YouTube says that the reason why we have it is because, and it's probably the best praise you can get when you work in Music Admin. He says, we fix more problems that we create.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Partners. For instance, we have global access now to YouTube on all three rights types. So we have a publishing global PLA, we've got a sound recording global PLA, and we've got a video global PLA. Those things are not easy to come by. Our partner manager at YouTube says that the reason why we have it is because, and it's probably the best praise you can get when you work in music admin. He says, we fix more problems than we create.

Hans Peter Roth

And I like it because it's true on so many levels. Well, thank you for saying that we are good at what we do. But thank you for also acknowledging the fact that the way the industry is set up is boo-boos happen. Mean, data is latent, data come in a wrong way. Every time somebody touches data, something can happen to it. It can get horrible somehow. So your ability to react to things that

Jakob Wredstrøm

And I like it because it's true on so many levels. Well, thank you for saying that we are good at what we do. But thank you for also acknowledging the fact that the way the industry is set up is boo-boos happen. Mean, data is latent, data come in a wrong way. Every time somebody touches data, something can happen to it. It can get horrible somehow. So your ability to react to things that

Hans Peter Roth

May or may not be correct. I mean, when you work 20 million works, you don't have time to set a micromanage every little aspect of it. So it's about when the patterns start volving themselves and go, hey, this is a problem. You must then be able to activate a reaction to it, either based on some automated business rules that you put into your admin system or the allocation of people resources. So I think that's basically where we are strong. And also,

Jakob Wredstrøm

May or may not be correct. Mean, when you work 20 million works, you don't have time to say that micromanage every little aspect of it. So it's about when the patterns start volutes themselves and go, Hey, this is a problem. You, you must then be able to activate a reaction to it, either based on some automated business rules that you put into your admin system or the allocation of people resources. So I think that's basically where, we are strong and also

Hans Peter Roth

Why we would be successful in a global market is we are not dependent upon other systems. A lot of businesses in this industry are like, well, I have this component that needs to speak with this component because I need to talk to my membership system that does the banking transfer and all those kind of and the same thing with publishers and the same thing with CMOs. There's a lot of interdependencies in the systems. I don't have that. I built my rocket for my purpose to go where I want to go.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Why we would be successful in a global market is we are not dependent upon other systems. A lot of businesses in this industry are like, well, I have this component that needs to speak with this component because I need to talk to my membership system that does the banking transfer and all those kind of and the same thing with publishers and the same thing with CMOs. There's a lot of interdependencies in the systems. I don't have that. I built my rocket for my purpose to go where I want to go.

Hans Peter Roth

I don't need to go 10 different places at the same time. So that means I can super optimize this work stream and just leverage the heck out of it. So yeah, so maybe just show a bit of it's anecdotal, but I love it because it also tells you a bit about why, because why did why have we done it? And again, so when we hired our head of technology, Colin White, we were interviewing him, we were saying, this is the music industry.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I don't need to go 10 different places at the same time. So that means I can super optimize this work stream and just leverage the heck out of it. So maybe just show a bit of... It's anecdotal, but I love it because it also tells you a bit about why. Because why had we done it? Again, so when we hired our head of technology, Colin White, we were interviewing him and we saying, this is the music industry.

Hans Peter Roth

And when you've been in this industry long enough, you come full of yourself, you become another dick. That's been around way, way too long. So music industry, millions of lines of data, hundreds of data entry points, da. You talk up your own game. And Colin kind of, it looked to us like he kind of glazed over and, know, Paul and I have been traveling so long together doing this, know, dog and pony show talking about our business that we kind of both thought, okay, he just can't fathom what we're talking about.

Jakob Wredstrøm

And when you've been in this industry long enough, you come full of yourself, you become another dick. That's been around way, way too long. So music industry, millions of lines of data, hundreds of data entry points, da. You talk about your own game. And Colin kind of, it looked to us like he kind of glazed over and Paul and I had been traveling so long together doing this dog and pony show talking about our business. And we kind of both thought, okay, he just can't fathom what we're talking about.

Hans Peter Roth

And then after a couple of seconds, just a couple of minutes went, I don't want to be a D on my own interview, but I hope you do realize that I come from a human genome project. I handle millions of data entry points and four terabytes in the browser. And that's when we just hit polymene like bam, like a hammer is like, yes, a guy like that comes in and go, okay, no problem. Instead of being, we have a problem. Here comes this guy that says,

Jakob Wredstrøm

And then after a couple of seconds, Joseph, I've called him in and went, I don't want to be a D on my own interview, but I hope you do realize that I come from a human genome project. I handle millions of data entry points and four terabytes in the browser. And that's when we just hit polymene like bam, like a hammer is like, yes, a guy like that comes in and go, okay, no problem. Instead of being, we have a problem. Yeah. Here comes this guy that says,

Hans Peter Roth

Will create a solution. So I think that's part of it as well. Not saying that he hasn't had a learning curve because the human genome acts as it's supposed to. This industry doesn't necessarily. Yeah.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Will create a solution. So I think that's part of it as well. Not saying that he hasn't had a learning curve because the human genome acts as it's supposed to. This industry doesn't necessarily. Yeah. There's so many things to unfold there and I don't know where to start. And we probably won't be able to cover all of it. But like I have a few different angles I want to comment this, but I'm going to come in with the last one. And that is the talent in the industry. And I'm just going to take a word for it with Conan White. One of the things that I observe a lot is a lot of the lack of solutions in the industry is not necessarily a reflection that there's a lack of understanding of the problem. And it's not necessarily because of lack of financing, which might, it does present an issue though. But oftentimes it's a lack of talent to solve that problem. Again, it comes back to, and this is my own interpretation of the data that I look at, is if the industry is not attractive comparable to other opportunities, the opportunity cost going into this industry is too high. A lot of the people who would potentially be able to provide good solutions are not incentivized to do it here. And that's one of the biggest issues I see. And I do believe a lot of us get overwhelmed with the music industry because... We just aren't the top of the class sometimes. You know, I know I'm generalizing and a bit harsh here, but like, you know, I, it's few and far between. And I am going to be honest and a bit provocative to hear this few or far between. Meet people in the industry that I would like to hire even remotely attracted to that. And I'm not saying they're not great professionals. I'm not saying the competent what they do. I'm just saying.

Hans Peter Roth

Yeah, totally fine.

Jakob Wredstrøm

If we're looking at the opportunities at scale, and who would I like to be associated with, and what would I like to build what I would hope to be at Billion Corner Company one day, would I choose anyone from here? Very few, very, very few. And it's just because it is a small industry, but the talent pool is also small, but I also believe there's a disproportionate amount of extremely talented people here. And what's my comment to that? And it is provocative, but it is the general comment about... value of music, value of the industry. And there's so many angles to look at it from. But talent, great CTO is one of them and how they get overwhelmed by problems and non-problems. Sorry, it's a bit prerogative, but I just want to say it. Does that make sense? Or am I too on the edge here? No, because of, yeah, because of, well, it depends on what motivates you, right? I mean, in the end, I'm...

Hans Peter Roth

No, I'm, yeah, because I, well, it depends on what motivates you, right? Mean, in the end, mean, everybody has read the management book or seen the TED talk or whatever it is that like, you should be wake up every day, every morning and be happy and throw your legs out of the bed and feeling energized. And we know, yes, in principle, but a lot, a lot of people are working this industry going, because I want to get ahead and I want to make the big con and I want to, you know.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Mean, everybody has read the management book or seen the Ted talk or whatever it is, that like you should be wake up every day, every morning and be happy and throw your legs out of the bed and feeling energized. And we know, yes, in principle, but a lot, a lot of people are working this in just going, cause I want to get ahead and I work, I want to make the big con and I want to, know, motivation is different things. Yes, ideally you should be motivated by balance in everything, but a lot of people are motivated by money.

Hans Peter Roth

Motivation is different things. Yes, ideally you should be motivated by balance in everything, but a lot of people are motivated by money. And CTO, can I make more money CTOing Amazon than I can CTOing PRS for music? Yes, most definitely.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You know, and CTO, can I make more money CTOing Amazon than I can CTOing PRS for music? Yes, most definitely. So there is a, there's a remuneration aspect here, which is, and you cannot even be crude and say, hey, as long as you pay your politicians what they pay them, you're not going to get the best people because they're going to go somewhere else. You know, I mean, it's, it's kind of a derivative of that notion that you're going to, you're going to have a lot of.

Hans Peter Roth

So there is a remuneration aspect here, which is, and you cannot even be crude and say, hey, as long as you pay your politicians what they pay them, you're not going to get the best people because they're going to go somewhere else. I mean, it's kind of a derivative of that notion that you're going to have a lot of really enthusiastic, engaged and...

Jakob Wredstrøm

Really enthusiastic, engaged and donkey-shot kind of people. I'm ready to go and fight everything. But you're not necessarily going to get the best equipped. And that's totally fine as well. And I think for the music industry, it's not the same. But we are working in a business where the industry is about being as...

Hans Peter Roth

Don Quixote kind of people. I'm ready to go and fight everything. But you're not necessarily going to get the best equipped. And that's totally fine as well. And I think for the music industry, it's not the same. But we are working in a business where the industry is about being as cheap as possible because in the end, we are relying on the raw material of people that gets paid in the end.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Cheap as possible because in the end we are relying on the raw material of people that gets paid in the end. I think we have to remember that. That's a big difference between

Hans Peter Roth

Think we have to remember that. That's a big difference between... There's no one that feels like I made that thread that's in that sock. Hence I should be paid, right? But we are in the music industry. I wrote that bridge. I wrote that verse. I created that. And those are the people we're beholden to. So we cannot just go out and go, Hey, I'm just going to scale like a mofo and Facebook the...

Jakob Wredstrøm

Using watches or socks or whatever it is. There's no one that feels like I made that thread that's in that sock. Hence I should be paid, right? But we are in the music industry. I wrote that bridge. I wrote that verse. I created that. And those are the people we're beholden to. So we cannot just go out and go, hey, I'm just going to scale like a mofo and Facebook the living daylights out of this and become a gazillionaire because that means you're stealing out of the pocket of the creators. So that narrative.

Hans Peter Roth

Out of this and become a gazillionaire because that means you're stealing out of the pocket of the creators. So that narrative will probably limit the amount of talent that wants to come in because that doesn't harmonize with what they see their career be.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Will probably limit the amount of talent that wants to come in because that doesn't harmonize with what they see their career be. I think that's a really interesting perspective. And I think that was a perfect contrast to my statement as of maybe why, if you were to assume that my statement was true. And I think that's really, important. And I haven't thought about it that way actually, that the conflict is not just about the actual economies, but also who gets paid and who's the most important person to pay. Obviously there's some chicken and the eggs in there, but that's also interesting to say. That's the interesting thing about the music industry and also why I like it. One of the things that I said before we did this interview, and I've said it publicly many times before, I'm not particularly interested in music. Even though I have seven years of university in music. But I'm very interested about the infrastructure of the industry for that particular reason. It goes very philosophical, very quickly. And it's these complex nuances between what's happening, what should be happening, what will be happening, what happened in the past. And there's no, it's very difficult to quantify like all these problems. And what is quite interesting to quantify is basically what you guys do, because it is quantifiable in an industry that's difficult to quantify. I believe that is the most interesting thing about this space right now. And what you do is, we need to have the quantifiable into the industry. We need to make sure that people get paid, they get paid correctly, and we do that scale. Where are we seeing the industry going now? Know, AI is an interesting topic in all of this, and we don't need to cover it in depth. But when it comes to rightful allocation, obviously that gets a whole lot more complex when there's training data involved and outputs that are neural networks. Do you have a comment on what's going to happen in the metadata space going forward? Well, being that the gray eminence that I am and lurking in the dark, there's tons of issues around AI and training and output, From my point of view, one of the biggest problems is the BS data that's going to come in from potentially AI-generated music that should not be copyrightable.

Hans Peter Roth

Well, being that the gray eminence that I am and lurking in the dark, there's tons of issues around AI and training and output, From my point of view, one of the biggest problems is the BS data that's gonna come in from potentially AI-generated music that should not be copyrightable or...

Jakob Wredstrøm

Or links to AI generated outputs that we need to rectify. From an admin point of view, from a process optimizer point of view, the biggest challenge is figuring out how do we avoid carrying the weight of BS content on the shoulders of the credible creators. Again, going back to what I said just before, this is a new overhead that is not value generating at all. AI

Hans Peter Roth

Links to AI generated outputs that we need to rectify. The from an admin point of view from a process optimizer point of view, the biggest challenge is figuring out how do we avoid carrying the weight of BS content on the shoulders of the credible creators. Again, going back to what I said just before, this is a new overhead that is not value generating at all. AI produced

Jakob Wredstrøm

Produced content that should not be remunerated. It gets remunerated. Then you have to do a credit note. Then you have to go and pull the money back. That's an extra overhead. That doesn't exist in any other industry. You don't incur overhead from other people's actions. Only happens in the music industry. Porsche does not incur overhead because Ferrari makes something stupid.

Hans Peter Roth

Content that should not be remunerated, it gets remunerated, then you have to do a credit note, then you have to go and claw the money back. That's an extra overhead. It doesn't exist in any other industry. You don't incur overhead from other people's actions. It only happens in the music industry. Porsche does not incur overhead because Ferrari makes something stupid. So anyway, so that's actually one of the biggest things is figuring out and that's which we kind of also talked about pre show is the technical online working group Europe and the steering committee, which I chair is these are some of the things we're looking at is how do we avoid how do we create common understanding of business rules or record best recommendations about these things so that we.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So anyway, so that's actually one of the biggest things is figuring out and that's which we kind of also talked about pre show is the technical online work group Europe and the steering committee, which I chair is these are some of the things we're looking at is how do we avoid how do we create common understanding of business rules or record best recommendations about these things so that we so that all licensed source can work.

Hans Peter Roth

So that all licensed source can work optimally in this space. Because one thing is data transmitted and how you transmit it. That's DDEX for instance, digital data exchange format, which is one of the best gifts to the industry. They just got an award at MusicBiz in Atlanta, very much deserved. But that's how you transmit data.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Optimally in this space. One thing is data transmitted and how you transmit it. That's DDEX, instance, the digital data exchange format, which is one of the best gifts to the industry. They just got an award at MusicBiz in Atlanta, very much deserved. But that's how you transmit data. Then what do with the data? How do you understand it? And I've been chairing the steering committee for many years now and there are still incidents even though I sit with some of the brightest people who know all ins and out of the industry. Then somebody goes, well, when you say METLI, didn't you mean this? Or when you say mashup, I thought you meant that. Know, so there's still some, as you said, there's no academic benchmark or

Hans Peter Roth

Then what do with the data? How do you understand it? And I've been chairing the student committee for many years now and there are still incidents, even though I sit with some of the brightest people who know all incidents out of the industry, then somebody goes, well, when you say METLI, didn't you mean this? Or when you say mashup, I thought you meant that. So there's still some, as you said, there's no academic benchmark. Cornerstone of this that everybody hangs their communal hat on. So there's a lot of things that just happens and then unless you mean the same thing when you say things, you can end up talking across purposes. So that's something that we're working on a lot as well.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Cornerstone of this that everybody hangs the communal hat on so there's a lot of things that just Happens and then unless you mean the same thing when you say things you can end up talking across purposes So that's something that we're working on a lot as well amazing We've covered a lot of topics today and this is gonna be an interesting thing to cover for many years to come and you know, I think you might assume just as an ordinary person that this would be one of the most boring aspects of the music industry, but the reality of it is actually one of the most actionable. There's happened so many things, so many nuances, there's so many changes. And it's also going to be the base of the economy. Like, you know, at the end of the day, the rights is what pays the bills. And as things are not solved yet, as things are not allocated rightfully so, if deals are not in place, if legislation does not follow...

Hans Peter Roth

Totally.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Let's say the ethical guidelines of humans and what should be associated to rights, it's going to present issues, it's going to represent complications, but also opportunities for actually making this a stronger industry that's worth more. And everyone will benefit from having more money in the system, that insisting that people get paid and that the money is paid correctly.

Hans Peter Roth

Mm.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So Hans-Peter, it's been a wonderful talk and I'm sure we're going to meet many times in the industry. And the last comment is we spoke in English, we're both Danish. It doesn't happen that loud, but it's a small industry, but it's good to hear a common Danish person really making waves in the international music industry. I appreciate the time Jakob and thanks for being such a great...

Hans Peter Roth

Yes

Hans Peter Roth

Appreciate the time Jakob and thanks for being such a great host and being able to rein me in when I started going off my rails because there's so many rails to go off in this industry. So that's been a really, really great experience and I appreciate the time and the interest. It's been great.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Host and being able to rein me in when I started going off one rails because there's so many rails to go off in this industry. So that's been a really, really great experience and I appreciate the time and the interest. It's been great. Thanks. Talk to you. Bye.

Hans Peter Roth

Bye.