SC-089 · Expert
The Story Behind MusicTech Lab
Guest: Maciej Dulski, Co-founder of MusicTech Lab
Summary
Maciej Dulski co-founded MusicTech Lab, a custom software agency based in Poland that builds technology for music startups and established music companies, from full products and platforms to smaller integrations, automations and data consulting. The company is ten years old and started under a different name, Brave Lab, working across industries like heavy industry and medicine before its founders took on their first music tech client and realized specializing in music gave them an edge that general development skill alone did not.
Two years ago MusicTech Lab rebranded and went all in on music, because Dulski says the industry's boring back-office problems, metadata, royalties and licensing, are widely known but rarely well understood even by people inside it. He says music tech founders are usually driven by passion rather than a typical startup-school background, and that MusicTech Lab tries to steer clients away from building an all-in-one platform on day one, instead helping them define a small proof of concept they can afford before raising more money.
Dulski says music tech startups are often underfunded and try to raise the same amounts as fintech or marketing startups, so he advises smaller pre-seed rounds aimed at proving a small, specific product rather than a big vision. He is most excited by boring, structural B2B problems like cleaning up metadata or fixing licensing gaps, and by founders whose music-specific insight could scale into other industries too, pointing to Poland's ElevenLabs, whose audio technology serves dubbing and other entertainment uses, including music and live shows.
As of the episode's release on 9 January 2025.
Key takeaways
- 01MusicTech Lab, ten years old and formerly a general digital agency called Brave Lab, rebranded two years ago to focus only on music technology after its first music client showed the founders how much industry-specific knowledge, like DDEX standards and how royalties work, mattered.
- 02Dulski says music tech startups often try to raise the same round sizes as fintech or marketing startups, and advises them to raise smaller pre-seed amounts and prove a small proof of concept before asking for more capital.
- 03MusicTech Lab deliberately helps founders scope down their first product to a small, buildable piece rather than an all-in-one platform, since clients with unlimited scope often cannot finish a project or keep working with the agency.
- 04Dulski sees the most durable opportunity in boring B2B problems like cleaning up music metadata and fixing licensing gaps, rather than flashy consumer superfan products, because B2B solutions have a higher chance of making money in a shorter time.
- 05Many music tech startups come to MusicTech Lab with founders passionate about music but building technology, like ElevenLabs' audio tools, that could scale into other industries such as sport or entertainment, which Dulski says makes them more fundable.
- 06In 2025 MusicTech Lab plans to publish educational content and open-source projects for the music tech industry, hoping to attract more developers to a space that Dulski admits does not pay as well as other tech sectors.
Guest
- Maciej Dulski, Co-founder at MusicTech Lab
Questions this episode answers
Why did MusicTech Lab decide to focus only on the music industry?
After building software across industries like medicine and heavy machinery, MusicTech Lab's founders took on their first music tech client and realized understanding basic industry vocabulary and rules, like the difference between a label and a publisher or how royalties work, gave them real specialization. Two years ago they rebranded and committed fully to music.
Why does Maciej Dulski advise music tech founders to raise smaller funding rounds?
Dulski says music tech founders often try to raise the same size rounds as fintech or marketing startups, which rarely matches the smaller opportunity in music. He advises raising less upfront, proving a small product actually works and finds paying clients, then using that proof to raise a larger round later, rather than overraising before anything is built.
What kind of music tech problems does MusicTech Lab think are most worth solving?
Dulski points to unglamorous B2B problems, like cleaning up music metadata and fixing gaps in licensing, as the biggest overlooked opportunities. He says this work is harder to pitch than a flashy consumer app, but has a better chance of making real revenue in the short term because it solves a problem the industry already knows it has.
How can a music tech startup become more attractive to investors, according to Maciej Dulski?
Dulski points to companies like Poland's ElevenLabs, whose audio technology serves dubbing and other entertainment uses, including music and live shows, as the model. He says a founder's music expertise can prove a product works, and if the same technology could scale into other industries too, that combination looks like a much bigger opportunity to investors who are skeptical of music alone.
it's much better to create something super small and launch it than to build even an MVP at the beginning
Episode notes
MusicTechLab is helping to address the challenges of integrating technology into the music industry while supporting creativity in startups. In this episode, Maciej Dulski shares his perspective on the changing landscape of music technology and how it is creating practical opportunities for artists and businesses. A thoughtful look at the hurdles and progress in this evolving field.
Highlights:
- MusicTechLab's journey in aiding music tech startups.
- Insights into financing challenges in the music tech industry.
- Exploring AI's potential and innovative solutions in music production.
Sponsored by Allfeat: Decentralized Blockchain Solutions for the Music Industry - https://www.allfeat.com/
Produced by Amplitude Ventures Consulting: Partners in Early-Stage Music Tech - https://amplitude.ventures
Topics
Transcript
Transcribed from the recording by the production team. Names and terms may be misspelled.
Read the full transcript
Jakob
Hey guys and welcome back to the Sound Conditions Podcast. Today I have a really interesting partner in the studio, Maciej from MusicTechLab. Welcome.
Maciej Dulski
Well, hi, Jakob. Nice to meet you. Nice to...
Jakob
You are a face I see at many conferences and we're going to talk about that a bit today because you are a technologist and you work at a that is a technology company and Amplitude Ventures and MusiTick Lab really support each other in our missions. So I thought it could be really great to have you on the podcast and talk about what you actually do. And just to give you a sell on the podcast, you guys are really helping startups and skill ups with the technological side of music technology. So it's a great place to go if you want to have those things addressed. Beyond the sale, I would really love to know about your guys' story and your story and how you came to focus on music technology. But Machi, in your own short words, can you describe what music tech lab is and what you do?
Maciej Dulski
Yes, absolutely. So, MusicTech Lab is a custom software agency that focuses on companies from the music industry. So, we work with music tech startups, but also with more established music companies. And we help them basically build exceptional technology. Are basically the technology they need a lot. And these could be like full products, like for example, platforms or mobile apps, but sometimes also smaller projects like integrations, automations they need. So everything from... Big projects too, also small projects like consulting and helping with building architecture or doing something with the data they have a lot and they don't know what to do with it or they know what to do but have no skills to actually make some analysis or anything.
Jakob
Mm.
Jakob
Which is really interesting because the music tech space is interesting and anyone who's listened to the podcast for a while would also know that I a mixed opinion about the health of the industry and how it is to be an entrepreneur here. And you guys have intentionally chosen to be focused on the music tech industry. So why is that?
Maciej Dulski
That's true. And the company is actually 10 years old and it used to have a different name. It was called Brave Lab. And for the first seven years of existence, it was like a standard digital agency who helps different kinds of projects from...
Jakob
Ha
Maciej Dulski
Heavy industry to medicine, medical industry, and built products. But as if in any industry, we saw that this kind of companies don't make much sense, be honest. And having just exceptional... and developers and great skills in building products is not a competitive advantage that much. So a few years ago, we got our first music client, was a music tech startup. And this got us very excited. My business partner is a... musician too, who was always geeking out and building some technology for himself in music. And it got him excited, but the decision hasn't been made yet. But we thought that this, we learned so much in this project. Like for example, even with basic vocabulary, like what's the difference between label, publisher, distributor, manager, what they do, what's the DDEK standards, how royalties works, that it was like a bulk moment for us. And we saw that this could be like a secret sauce for us to actually have some specialization and be able to understand the specific needs that this industry we believe has or at least specific dynamic that it's not well known in our space. I mean, in our space like developers. So we thought this could be it. So from personal reasons and professional reasons, we thought, hey, let's try to find clients here. And we have found some.
Jakob
Mm.
Maciej Dulski
And like two years ago we decided to go just all in, change the name, rebrand and focus only on this part of this industry because it seems like it's always also very interesting for us because there is a lot of... especially in this boring back-end, back-office space there is a lot of... problems which could be solved with technology if anyone could offer their services to those companies.
Jakob
Yeah, and I hear this over and over again, like we consult a good deal of companies in this space and I think the technology side is just really hard to crack. Obviously, to a big degree, technology is technology, but building technology with a business purpose is a big part of the journey. And if the development team does not understand the business metrics of which the product should be placed in, oftentimes you're going the wrong direction. You know, I remember with my first real startup, I did around six, seven years ago, like a fintech startup. We went and spent our first money on doing a visual mock-up for investors and that cost us I don't know 20,000 euros to do a visual mock-up like up today I was like are you freaking crazy like that's not how you spend your money But that particular company did not understand what a startups need was which means you know They'll do anything just to make money which is you know fine. That's just a how I'm doing business but if there was a Company that would understand the long-term value of us as a client and helping us understand. Okay, if you want to get there, the first step is doing this. And this is what you need to consider in the roadmap of what you're developing. And then we wouldn't have wasted friends, fools, and families money on doing a visual mock-up for investors that we couldn't convince anyways for other reasons. So that's just an analogy that I really like the way that you approach it because a lot of time, energy, and money is spent on technology that doesn't... understand where the product needs to be placed. And guess that's also where your value proposition comes in as Musiqtek Lab.
Maciej Dulski
Yes, absolutely. Plus, very often companies that come to us, these are idea people, so people with big visions who, of course, should have this one narrative to investors that they will be changing the world and the opportunities exceptional. But with us, they're very... they're making their first step or they're one of the first initial steps in their journey of building a platform or of a product. So what we want to help with them is to actually distill or select the things that they definitely need to do to create this initial extraordinary product that will solve the real problem rather than build all in one platform that does everything, which is a great vision for year five maybe, but for the year two or three, it should be something else. So we help them actually pick the things that they need to build with our help.
Jakob
Yes.
Maciej Dulski
With also our knowledge in this space that makes the most sense. And this is also important for us because these projects, if we were to just deliver everything... the client will definitely won't be able to finish the project and work with us long-term. So it's also in our interest to help this entrepreneur to become successful and build the initial product POC, then MVP, and go step by step by step to become successful in this space.
Jakob
One thing that we experience a lot, and I'm just gonna assume you experienced this as well, is music tech companies are not particularly well-financed. There's many reasons for it. There's a very difficult investor market for music tech. There is for tech in general right now in Europe, but I would say music tech is definitely not seeing the bright side of that movement.
Maciej Dulski
Yes.
Maciej Dulski
True.
Jakob
And which also means that the clients coming to you would oftentimes have limited budgets, which makes it both very admirable what you're doing, but also, you know, I'm not going to say the same about us, like risky and a tiny bit stupid. But again, there's also something about being taking a risk on a specific market that might be not as attractive of other markets. But how do you, how do you feel that? How do you experience the under financing of music tech startups as a company that's supposed to deliver to companies that has some sort of financing?
Maciej Dulski
Yeah, that's absolutely true. So we, every month we get inquiries from some teams that would like to use our services, but they're currently raising money and they're making like a research how much would it cost to work with us. And if they raised the next round and what I see like very often is that their rounds are very simple. Like they try to raise the same amounts that you would raise if you were doing, for example, a fintech company or in marketing, et cetera, which we try to...
Jakob
Yeah.
Maciej Dulski
advise them not to do and help very often again find the POC of their initial product that could show that the product could be made and finds its initial clients. So definitely music tech startups are a little bit struggling with finding finding investors, we could see that and this is why we do some activities that support them. But also we believe that very often they're making some mistakes with raising too much, trying to raise too much capital for their pre-seed seed rounds. It would be great if they raised because they could spend it with us. But we believe that a better strategy is to have smaller investments and then deliver projects and have a higher chance to have another raise.
Jakob
Mm.
Jakob
Yeah, no, I totally agree. And if people go and read some of the articles I've written on LinkedIn, I posted one two weeks ago and we'll post a few more. That's also what I really see is that if you are to raise capital in this environment, being even more step by step than traditional companies probably. needs to be there, which basically means raise less money, prove something, raise more money, prove something. It's not optimal. Being a startup is never optimal, but that's the realities of the current investor landscape. So what do you see? What do people want to build in music tech? What is happening out there? What's the current movement that people are going towards?
Maciej Dulski
Like we see... So this business... It's interesting, like the founders of music tech companies are interesting because I think it's not standard. They are not like a typical startup founders out there who are out of business schools who want to have these amazing companies and just to have the company. So this is a passion business. So Very often, founders that come to us, these are dreamers in their specific area of passion. So they're DJs who would like to create a special marketplace to sell something, for example, some of their work, because they see a potential there. But in terms of projects that come to us, I would say that right now most projects that come to us are about superfans, that they are trying to reach superfans in some form. These are things that are marketplaces for different content. So these could be competitors of an existing platform that have some gimmick that it's more niche, that would like to change the... that would like to serve the specific market. Or then definitely things that have AI in them. But this is so broad.
Maciej Dulski
That the use of AI is so broad that it's even difficult to categorize what the projects are. So I would need to with that. And there are many music professionals who have some insights from their existing companies.
Jakob
Yeah.
Maciej Dulski
That, for example, work in licensing for a very long time and see that there is some missing piece in the process. And they come to us to, for example, create a product that could serve their specific problem that they had in the past.
Jakob
It's really interesting to see what's happening out there and I also see a lot in the fan space economy What I think I see too much of and not to discourage anyone is The business models where there's too much passion I'm gonna explain myself what I mean by that If a problem is sexy is solving something to save the assets or whatever the founder is trying to do. Chances are that is not a great model. For many, many reasons. The most basic logical reason is if something is really, really sexy and it hasn't been solved yet, there's probably some underlying structure that's making that non-solvable. Or there's some fundamental business model or consumer mentality. Where I believe the most potential is, is much more nuanced. It is sort of structural issues in the industry, it is B2B solutions. And I'm not saying there's not potential in the other things, I'm just saying that if something hasn't been solved that's very sexy, there's most likely a reason why it hasn't been solved. And it doesn't mean that you as a founder can't solve it, it's just saying, you know. maybe a bit too high thoughts of yourself that you would be the right person to solve it. I'm not going to discourage people being entrepreneurs in this space. Please go for it. That only helps everyone that you're trying. But that's sort of my, what I see. And If you were to agree my statement, you don't need to because you don't need to exclude anyone. But if you were to play off the notion of problems in the industry structures, what do you see as a technologist as something really interesting to solve? Like are there some problems in infrastructure, in the B2B environment that you, here's some really interesting things technology can address.
Maciej Dulski
Yeah, so definitely. I think that the problem that hasn't been solved yet, that is really boring, but could be solved with the right technology is, for example, trying to clean at least some part of the mess that metadata. creates. So this is the part where everyone in the music industry know that it exists but very often they don't know how it works and very often the music industry is actually part of the problem because the music professionals, because they're making the mess. And for example the And we believe that with current technology and for example using AI, this could be a right moment to create a product that could clean metadata, help also artists but labels also to make more money, help smaller artists to make more money. The same thing connects with licensing. So this is a thing that is also a little bit boring. It's not Gen.AI new model that could with one prompt create a new hit for billboard. But you could, for example, create a solution that could help smaller artists to get real deals. on their music and democratize the industry. But you need to know the insights how this works, how this industry works, be there. And know also that some blockers that are in this industry. And this is a boring technology very often because it's difficult also to explain and it's not B2C.
Maciej Dulski
It's B2B, but with much higher chances to actually make money in shorter term, which is super important, I believe, in the music tech space, because there are very little opportunities here to create a huge consumer app. that will grow from nothing to billions of dollars. There are just the next few startups like that and there are hundreds of thousands of startups that are trying to reach this problem.
Jakob
Yeah, the B2B space is really interesting. I oftentimes use this example on the podcast and I'll just do it again. So, Emplisie Ventures, we have ownership in a few different companies. A lot of them are tech related. We have this one particular company called Mintix, which is a blockchain based API solution. And we've been doing it for two and a half years. And I'm not going to pitch it directly here on the podcast, but... I believe that addresses a lot of very serious pain points in the industry. And we've raised money for it. Like we've raised, you know, more than most, but not nearly enough what I believe it should have. And we've tried to raise money for that for like a year now and no one gets it. And I've been thinking like, am I wrong about this? And I've just been thinking and talking with people, like all the best people I know, like, is this an actual issue? Yes, it's an actual issue. Is this like an approach to solve it? Yes, it's actually an approach to solve it. Just like, fuck it. Okay, so we're just bootstrapping it now because, know, losing a bunch of money just because some of these things are just... It's hard to explain not because the problem is hard to identify, but it's just hard to vision what does the future bring for solving these issues. And that's also why I believe actually besides B2B being a more interesting thing to solving an actual problem and acquisition potential, but it's also, it's so much harder to comprehend as a founder, as an industry professional, as an investor. what the actual problem is, what the solution might bring of benefit to the future. So a lot of people fail in this space because of very deep industry roots and knowledge that enables the patience and longevity it takes in order to get to something that actually has worth. For example, today we just, a whole new part of our product was finished and she's like, that's fucking amazing. And now we need to go sell it, but like, we gotta bootstrap it.
Jakob
No investor is gonna give us money before we have numbers. And that's the difficult part about this is where you might experience low-hanging fruit of capital, like for angels around you, might be for these sexy solutions. Because you can tell a story that's compelling and people can buy into it and some low-level amount of money can probably be gotten from that. But for the actual issues that both you and I right now are talking about, which are the structural issues, really hard to raise capital for because it requires so much knowledge of the industry, but also so much foresight of what value that solutions bring. I'm going a bit of a tangent here, but I think that's really interesting about also how you build technology is you're building in a space that has a lot of issues that can be solved. the capital needed to get to be able to even try to solve that issue is just so incredibly hard to get. Where I think, I believe so much in the POC, like even before MVP, like just prove the concept you're talking about. Have a proof point. And I love that you mentioned that as the first step and not just an MEP. That you don't go directly to selling a big package, but like, let's do a POC. Let's do proof of what you're saying. I can imagine the same way that you saying that you advise founders to raise less capital or focus more on pre-seed is probably the same rule book that you find when you're saying POC. It's like, let's just make sure you have enough capital to prove something and then you can go out and raise more capital and you can come back to us and help us and we can help you build it. I guess that's the same thing you're saying.
Maciej Dulski
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And this is also, and then these kinds of amounts to build a POC is something that potentially you could finance yourself. So, and then try to sell it, which is like a... Probably if you would be able to build any product and then sell it even to one customer, it's a big great signal for an investor that there could be something because the market is full of products that has never been delivered and there are like, I think there are like... five times more products that haven't been delivered than these actually have and got any client. So it's much better to create something super small and launch it than to build even an MVP at the beginning. not even saying that something bigger and because there is always the same problems you fall into this dynamic that I just need one more thing to build before I could launch and find new clients and this is an excuse to not to sell Of course, we're helping you build technology. So it might be in our interest to help you build one more feature, one more feature, et cetera. But actually, as I mentioned before, it doesn't work that way. It's much better to launch and have success in next round and build something bigger and MVP and have a next step. So I totally agree with you. keeping it very small.
Maciej Dulski
Just increases your chance to be successful with something bigger.
Jakob
Yeah, yeah and also like the, not even the big pivots but also the small pivots are just changing all the time when you're discovering a startup. So you need to take it step by step. Again, going back to the Mintix example, we're on like product version number five and there have all been different business premises. we've only done it one major pivot, but again, I, not to make me bigger than I am, but I know a lot about this industry. Like I, I live and breathe this. And even with that knowledge, like I need to pivot my assumptions multiple times in an area I'm specialized in. So the assumption that your first idea, your first MVP, whatever is what's going to end up with is statistically reading,
Maciej Dulski
You
Jakob
probably not gonna be that. You're gonna change your mind and especially if you're addressing complex issues, those complex issues will evolve over time with your understanding and you need to change the tech stuff. So having the step-by-step mentality is really, really important. But Maciej, what do you believe is the future of music tech? Obviously you guys are taking a chance on this industry. you might be prevent or you might be idiots, but like in your own, in your own hope for what this industry might be, and I'm in the same boat as you, what do you believe that is? Like, why is this worth investing time and energy on?
Maciej Dulski
We believe that it's an interesting... This industry will grow, we believe, but most interesting products won't necessarily be solely within the music. So... One of the other bets that we have that we would try to find products like that to work with them is also to the companies that start with music, but just because they have like an initial insight what needs to be built. But actually the product that they're building could have different... uses in different, or the same use in different industry. So I even write this on my LinkedIn, this observation, but this could go even further, that many music tech startups that come to us could start with product for the music industry, but could very easily switch, for example, to sport industry. and have multiple use cases. And so the founder that comes to us is mostly passionate about music and he's excited what could be done here. But if you show them that the next step could be, okay, let's build here, let's make this initial market proof. proof point that this project actually makes sense and then build it so we could switch to something else. It's open and like a completely different opportunity for them who never thought about this, but definitely also for investors who could now see that, okay, I don't know much about music industry. So I could be skeptical.
Maciej Dulski
But okay, this person is an insider, so maybe he knows a few things more that this project could work here, but if it could also work here and here, then it makes much bigger chance of becoming 100x for me and actually becoming a big opportunity. So we also try to... We believe that these kind of companies... could become the next maybe unicorns of the industry. Like for example the company from Poland where I'm based which is 11 Labs who are creating audio technology that could be used for example in dubbing or other use cases, also working on the music or live shows. many different entertainment elements rather than just one sector, which is, I believe, great strategy to then raise substantial amounts and build substantial technology.
Jakob
Hmm.
Jakob
No, I believe there's definitely merit to solving some big issues that can be mirrored to other industries that are larger. And that's also, for me, like, sometimes the conflicting element with working in music tech is oftentimes I need to say to founders, at least what I believe is, great, you're working in the wrong industry. Because music has pain points to address and there can be crossovers if you've built great technology to be integrated into other things. I have some of my friends who've sold companies that intended for music and was bought by a company for something completely different because they've built great technology that has a use case. So that definitely happens and that's encouraged. But there's also an element of like, yeah, go ahead and build it for music, but you know, please don't make it for music later. Because the promise you're giving to investors, to yourself, your wife, your kids maybe, cannot be fulfilled by this particular industry. And that's just the honesty of the entrepreneurial journey. And I believe in music long-term, and I'm very happy we have a technology company like yours that believes in it as well and its potential. But I think there's a lot of things to be discovered like what is the actual worth. I have a good sense of it. You have a good sense of it. You guys have made long lists and I can encourage everyone to go to website and read list about investors who sort of invest in this space. I think it's very inspiring. You have a very good website by the way, so you guys can spend an hour or two in there. But I believe there is but there's a lot of proof points to be had so
Maciej Dulski
Thank you.
Jakob
People taking chances of supporting companies like yours and mine, I think are gonna be a central part of making this work. Maciej, it's a pleasure talking to you and I really look forward to having more conferences with you. You are a conference face, which I think is very important for people like you to really... get used to the ground of what's happening. So what are you looking forward to in 2025? Are there any conferences you're going to or are there any technology trends you believe it's going to be more and more that you guys are going to work on?
Maciej Dulski
Definitely go for some conferences as much as possible and as much as my personal life will allow me to go. But we will definitely, as MusicTechLab, we'll be trying to make much more educational content for the industry. We believe that something that are. There are so many publications in other industries that don't exist here. Just educating this market could help us find founders who then could become successful together with us. And so in 2025 we'll be publishing a lot of materials helping those founders educate them. So apart from me learning on conferences, we're trying to also educate music tech founders, how to build companies or how to build technology in the music space. And we will also be publishing a lot of launching open source projects. So this is also something that we believe could be useful for this industry to make it, push it forward. A little bit to give more free stuff to make building easier and also bring cool developers into the industry because it's also it's not the most
Maciej Dulski
Well-paid, it's not the most well-paid industry out there. So we believe that if we could show that it is exciting and some builders will come and some cool technology will start become a reality and from that also some companies could be burned. So this is what we are planning for the next year.
Jakob
That's great. Well, thank you for being on the podcast. It's been a pleasure and I'm looking forward to seeing you in real life at one point again.
Maciej Dulski
Thank you, thank you for inviting me.
Jakob
Great. Stopping the recording.
