Taking Charge: How Emerging Artists Are Shaping Their Own Success

It's really important we don't confuse being good at business for chasing what you think is going to sell or work. It doesn't mean a compromise on any aspect of your art. I've known and been friends with some incredibly talented musicians that didn't get the traction they deserve. I wouldn't say they were bad business people and they were so extremely intelligent and smart because

business wasn't a focus in their music career. This is something a lot of artists fall to is I will make the music the rest of it is really out of my hands. This episode's opens up for a new series on the podcast talking with managers and artists.

And today we're talking with Mike Holland, the manager of Logic. And it's an amazing story he has, a lot of reflection about the future of music and what really matters right now in music. Let's do it. It's a It's a cold open here.

Um But yeah, look, the music industry is in a super turbulent, shifting place right now. Um I think when some people say that or hear that, they get kind of a load of anxiety on their chest.

And something that they've known, you know, look, we've always had changes. We had to shift to streaming. I don't know why. I'm sure it feels like this to you, but right now feels a little bit different. It feels a little bit bigger. It feels like we're on the precipice of something kind of radically new in how music runs as a business.

And there are some people who hear that and uh I believe get that anxiety. Mhm. What is next? Uh how do I fit into it? And I think there are others and you probably work with a lot of them who get a thrill from it. And they get excited by it. Um and that change

will have its ups and downs. It'll have its negatives. It'll have its positives, but um, ideally on the other side of it, it comes out with something that's better for both the artists and their creative path and us as listeners and music enjoyers. So, um, you know, it I, you know, that started with you kind of mentioning what you do and I just think that it's important

that people stay educated and up-to-date on what's going on. It even though it can seem confusing, what's going on in the industry directly impacts um, our artist friends and clients and colleagues and everyone else who works in the industry as well. Amazing Mike. And for the audience who don't know sort of this is a atypical way of starting the podcast. We'll just sort of flow into Me and Mike were talking and we say some good stuff.

So, so we just started the podcast and welcome well welcome Mike and welcome audience, but Mike, today we're going to talk with you about your journey as a manager and we always just had to put in a lot of gold. Um, but I think what we use this opportunity tonight my time is we'd understand your journey. We'd understand how you see the future.

You have been um, I don't know if lucky is the right word. You have had a successful career so far. You represent some amazing artists. Um, we just talked about Logic which is sort of to what degree that I listen to rap is probably my favorite rapper.

And it's really interesting to sort of see from your perspective as a career like how you have managed artists and navigated your career. But Mike, let's just take it from what you said. What is your outlook on the music right now like practically? You sort of teased to it when you started the episode.

Yeah, no, that's a great question. First of all, thanks for having me. This is super fun. Been following what I would say is your words for a while now and um on social platforms and um, yeah, so this is this is an honor to be here.

Um Yeah, I'd say, you know, this is a as we touched on a bit, um for a lot of people, a scary time in music. You have um technology rapidly developing. Um it seems like for some, it's getting out of control.

Um but I think if we can kind of zoom out for a moment and really see what's going on. Um you know, who's to say, but it feels like music is becoming more democ- democratized.

Um I'd say this on this applies for larger artists, such as Logic, such as, you know, other artists on that scale, all the way to emerging artists, aspiring artists. Um, there are now more tools and ways to go about releasing and monetizing your work on your own or with

limited crew or with limited financial support um and ownership retention than there ever has been in the past. So, to me, that's the crux of what's going on. And that is I know there could be a lot of kind of scary buzzwords that I'm happy to get into some of the AI stuff cuz I think that's massively interesting to talk

about, but um but in terms of like a large trend, what is good for artists, I feel like we're trending that way. I'm really optimistic and excited about what's happening in music and technology right now. Oh, I would love to break that down and normally how we you if it's sort of especially these episodes where we should have dive into your journey, we really go that quite fast. But let's just linger here in this moment for

2 seconds. I have a question. Yeah. Because I um I spend a lot of my time uh experimenting with new technologies in music. Uh and there's a lot of questions I have that I don't ask a lot of people because people tend to go to me for the answers, if that makes sense.

Um but I don't There's a lot of answers I don't have. One of them is um I'll give you a practical example I've used a few times in the podcast. I have uh I have three kids. Uh the oldest I like to create stories with. And sometimes when you go to bed, we create a story, and then in the morning when he gets up, I've written a song for him.

Um I have a song background as a songwriter. And then created um through your AI music production, but it's not silly stuff. It's like actual real stuff. It's his story, what we talked about with good music, good naughty. And for me, I know the reality of him as a creator musician, if he wants to be that in the future, is very different from what it was for me.

So, how is that going to change things for the next generation of artists? Like how do you think that's going to look? And how is the opportunities and financials around them going to look differently from what we might know now?

Yeah. Um that's a really great question. Let's say let's start with this. Becoming an artist as a career, no matter if it's small, it's enough just to pay rent, or you become a superstar, either one, they're almost equally as impossible.

It's really, really difficult. Um that doesn't mean it can't happen. That doesn't mean with the right preparation and the right team, and the right education. And you know, I take issue with the word I just used as impossible. I think, you know, improbable. It's unlikely.

Um Very unlikely. I think you have to start from that lens and say it's kind of me against not everybody, but everything. Don't be resentful towards other people. Um but it's always going to be very difficult.

Um the beauty of technology is that for the next generation they're going to know at least where to start. Mhm. And that's so important. I You know, I think before it was you know, it wasn't that long ago that YouTube even started breaking artists.

And we saw that happen kind of left and right in you know, 2010 to 2013 and 14 as you had at least in hip-hop, and I can speak on hip-hop maybe a little bit more, but um you know, you had Logic, you had Wiz Khalifa, you had Mac Miller, you had Chance the Rapper. Um that was a brand new playbook at the time.

And I feel like every few years you have uh a new playbook. And back then you had to have a videographer, you had to have a cool crew, you had to be fun, you had to be charismatic. There had to be a lot of entertainment value. It wasn't easy just to break on YouTube, either. Um but what I'd say is next is it takes less.

The next generation is going to be able to do it in their bedroom. They're going to be able to tap into technologies for content for lyrics, for instruments. Um for social media posts. I mean, there's hundreds of uh tools at their disposal now.

Um and then the flip side of that is you're going to have a lot of competition. Mhm. Um so that's how I feel it kind of should be. Mhm. Before it was access to opportunity. And of course you had to have talent.

Um you know, just to put it more extremely, but before back in the day, decades ago, um you had to be quite lucky and not only be talented, but meet the right people, be the be in the right places. Um, that's not to say it was an industry of nepotism. There's certainly a ton of talent and deserved talent. Mhm.

But now you can be in Norway, you can be in Oklahoma, you can be in um Vancouver, you can be anywhere in the world uh and have access to all markets. Um, so what's going to differentiate artists from each other is I think skill, talent, business mind.

Um I think it's going to become more of a meritocracy than it has in the past. Mhm. It's still going to be really hard to make it, but at least it's a system more so based on uh skill rather than opportunity.

It's really interesting. I would love to hear you elaborate on the concept of business. And you used that sort of in connection with Autograf. You've also mentioned yourself, I think before we recorded um Logic's sort of business mind.

Try to sort of break that down why that's been important for him and why it's important for the future. Certainly. Yeah. Um, you know, I've known and been friends with some incredibly talented musicians uh that didn't get the traction they deserve.

Weren't able to put money in their pocket. I wouldn't say they were bad business people. Um and they were so extremely intelligent and smart not just creative and talented, but very smart people. Um because business wasn't a focus in their music career.

Um I think this is something a lot of artists fall to is I will make the music. I will contribute some elements when it comes to branding, content, music videos. Um but then the rest of it is really out of my hands.

I think that way of thinking um is really debilitating for artists and most who think that way are going to struggle to make it in the industry. As an artist you're going to have managers, you're going to have lawyers, you're going to have agents, you're going to have label reps, you're going to have A&Rs, you're going to have producers, you're have engineers. You should be really good at

putting a great team around you. But that's a CEO's job is to put a great team around them. Mhm. So as an artist I believe you are your own CEO. You are in charge of your own career. If everything falls apart it's going to be you at the end of the day. Mhm.

Um and if you're reliant on other people to make the best decisions, they may be you might have a really good team next to you. Um but if you're not lockstep with them and you're not driving the business itself you're going to struggle to break as an artist, but then also maintain a career as an artist. So I strongly encourage all aspiring emerging artists to really

study and understand the business. And of course that's shifting, but the principles still apply, right? How business development when it comes to artistry is grow your fan base. Um there are going to be new tips and tricks and technologies, but at the end of the day if you have 10 fans, make that 20 fans. It's a really simple

Concept and you have 20 fans, and so on and so forth. Um and that doesn't really change. Um so I yeah, like just to kind of summarize, I really do encourage artists, even if they have great managers or anyone in their team, to think of it like a business.

Um because the music, unfortunately, um is only half of it. And you have to make money doing it if you want to continue doing it. Yeah. I think it's so refreshing hearing it from you. Um one layer I could add to it, at least from my own perspective, is also as music creation is democratized, or whatever word you want to use for it, um

I also believe that good music uh you will hear good music more often. Like people with um the lower barrier of entry are going to find it easier to get to a point where they actually can say what they want to say at a very high quality. Which means there's going to be other elements to place in than what it used to do, at least in this sort of growing phase.

Um business might be one of them, and I haven't actually heard it explicitly said that uh clearly. But that I think that's really interesting. Like one of the questions I have, and we'll get into your story. I guess this is also sort of the output of your story. Yeah.

It's all part of it. Um is the concept of I don't want to combine terms that shouldn't be combined, but like an artistic integrity, or um let's call it the fully focused creator, or like, you know, whatever um term you would associate to not diluting your art.

Like how does that conflict with your statement? Is that just for a few people, and there's some who's who can do that without doing a compromise? Like, what's your thought about that specific part of music? Oh, certainly. I That's such a good question.

And I think that's such a important question. It's really important we don't confuse being good at business for chasing what you think is going to sell or work. It doesn't mean a compromise on any aspect of your art.

Unless you so choose to. If you want to make pure pop music that sounds like it could take off on the radio, that's your artistic adventure and that's for you to experiment with and figure out and um I'd say this is almost completely separate from the music making. When you're making music, take risks. Do stuff that people haven't heard before.

Um The thing is with listeners and fans and the public is they're smart. You can't You can't really fool people too often. Um Uh the word authentic is a such a buzzword. We hear that everywhere now, right? Mhm. Um but there's something so true about that where if something's not

yourself or at least like it's not obvious you're playing a character or there's some let's say intention put into your craft, people are going to be able to see through that. So, when I say be good in understanding of the business side of music, that doesn't mean compromise your artistic value. That means learn how to sell

what you're making. Um I think you know, we see artists do really great jobs of that still. Um someone who probably gets brought up a lot and I think is a great example is James Blake uh who is a visionary when it comes to what music can be, constantly um,

pushing uh, artistic visions and um, what is popular music and has continued to grow a fan base over time. But, you could tell he's thinking about the business. I mean, he's pretty open about it and right now he's on a big crusade of get emails, get email lists and um, and market yourself through that. I love that. I don't I don't think that's the only thing you can do or should

do, but I think he's completely right. Um, that's not a compromise of artistic vision. That's an understanding of how to get it to the people who want to hear it. Mhm. So interesting. I have been sort of um, on my own private time, nothing is a private time as an entrepreneur. I've been business anyways. Um, been going back to songwriting. Uh, and just for

the context of people listening to the podcast, I've uh, I've done a lot of things with music, none of them uh, fully and deeply, but I've touched upon most parts. And when I did songwriting very seriously for a couple of years, um, one of the things that I thought about myself is I struggled a bit with lyrics and I struggled a bit with what I wanted to say and I was really good with

melody. So, that's sort of the way I left songwriting to some degree. Then when sort of AI music came, I started sort of working on this project um, that I have for myself, but the core concept is I'm halfway there or like to something I lost. And what's really interesting is now I'm writing songs for myself for my own artist project. I don't know I don't intend to release it, but

I can now write, you know, lyrics to songs without music, just sitting down on the couch, having full intent in 15 minutes and write lyrics that I'm incredibly proud of and needs almost no editing. And I'm sort of like what has happened last 6 years that maybe from I don't know what to write about and I suck at lyrics to now I can sit down and write the most personal well-structured lyrics I've ever done and I've had a 6-year break and not worked on it in

between. And the thing that I've worked on since then is intent. Um and I think that is that's been so striking for me the last couple of weeks is just like I feel even though I'm not an artist in any musical sense, I feel more like an artist than ever just because as an entrepreneur I've just been forced into the deepest of holes I could be forced into and you know,

confronted with who I am and what I want to do so much that when I return to the artistic musical side of who I am it's more clear than ever. The point I'm trying to make which is of course so super, you know, um my own point is when you talk about business, we talk about fandom, we talk about this whole side which is sort of forcing you into

an environment of making very conscious decisions about how you act and how you are and what you try to let's say sell, but you know, that's not what I mean. I think that's the same journey to some degree going on. That was a long story to try to get to a point. I think that's sort of what you're touching upon.

Yeah, I you know, I'd say you kind of nailed it there in that artistic vision is an element of business. And it sounds so wrong almost um when it comes out, right? To um kind of equate something so pure and from the heart.

Um but we don't exist in a vacuum. Um we exist in the context of our world. We love music. So we want to keep creating music. So we create music so we can keep creating music. Mhm. Um and that just I think can sound worse than it is.

Um making great art You know, I think a lot of people debate on should you make art for yourself, should you make art uh for the listeners and uh you could say you're doing one or the other, but you're likely doing both at all times, right?

We are we are not, you know, we're not elevated beings. We uh we are doing our best. Um but when you say intent, I think that's important. I think that's uh that's a word um and a feeling that a lot of artists focus on.

Even if uh growth isn't the priority at the moment. If you're not making music with intent, if you're not creating any art with intent, uh it's likely not going to make people feel much. So, regardless, you know, that is step one to having a music career, but regardless of whether that's your priority, then either way, I'd love it if

um more artists kind of discover what you've been discovering about creation. Mhm. I think this is a perfect time to sort of pivot back to what should have been the first 3 minutes, but I really love that the conversation took this angle. Uh Mike, you're here because you've had a interesting story and you are in a place in your life where uh very few people get. Um

and I sort of wanted to understand sort of what have you been through, what's sort of the lessons you've learned, and most importantly, what are the um the problems you've had to face because what we try to do with this podcast is really trying to understand the reality and I'm going to assume if it's anywhere close to my life, you know, 80 to 90% of what we do is problems uh and a few of them are successes and

ups. So, Mike, could you almost from the beginning just tell me a bit about how you got into music uh and then your sort of venture towards where you're now. Yeah, definitely. Um yeah, great question.

I'd say this um I never intended to become a music manager. It's not something I thought about um growing up or in school. Um it evolved that way. Um and I'm glad it did.

I uh I got my start in content filming um in high school. I'd have a camera. I'd hang out. My crowd was generally skateboarders and I couldn't kickflip for the life of me.

But, I had a camera around and for that reason, you know, if they were friends, they would have told me to screw off, but um I was really embedded with what was going on. A lot of those skaters ended up becoming professional and um and I was a part of that and I could see, okay, I might not be the main act, um but I can contribute

uh with my own vision and my own skills. And so, as I developed uh those skills, um I started working with local acts and uh directing music videos and uh documentaries. Um and then just really falling in love with the local music scene. This is again back and we talked about this before we started, but back in the blog era,

websites like This Song Is Sick and Good Music All Day, you were in math class and you with the person next to you. Oh, did you hear this guy just dropped. He just dropped. Like, he just dropped a mixtape on DatPiff." Um and so I was just falling in love with music, but also just like the movement and the culture around music, especially um there on the East Coast. I grew up in Maryland outside of DC, and there was

like if there's a really crazy feeling about what was going on around there during the time and um and I wanted to follow that. I wanted to pursue that. Uh and of course I was going to do that with the camera cuz that's what I had. Um and so this is back in what, 2011?

Um a friend of mine hits me up and says, "Hey, I have tickets for the Logic show in Baltimore. Uh would you like to join me? Um I have meet and greet passes, too." And I was a fan of Logic. A lot of us were fans of Logic, but this is back when he was doing like 200, 300 person shows. I think this is the hometown show, so it was like 500 people. It was

really They really messed it up. By the way, I don't want to under play that. If you have 200 people going to your shows around the country or the world or wherever you are, even one town, that's incredible. That is goals. Like, that I don't want to underplay how amazing that is, but in the context of Logic's career, that was pretty early on.

Um and uh and I just had a feeling about it. I said, "You know what? I want to work with this guy. I want to follow this path. I love what's going on here and you just felt momentum. It was just like this palpable energy." And so I went to the show and my friends are drinking. They're like, "Take the shot." I'm like, "No, I'm not I'm not drinking tonight." They're like, "You're not drinking tonight, Mike? You're not drinking?" I'm

like, "No, no, I want to stay sober. I have I want to have a conversation with Logic." Um and it's just like the funniest, corniest, high school mentality, but um I did. And in my mind VIP tickets was, oh, we're all hanging out backstage.

Like, I'll get to know him really well, and we'll work together, and um what I soon realized was you get in a line, and you shake a hand, and you take a photo, and he's he was super nice. Um you know, I think most artists a lot of artists, at least, uh will kind of just take your photo, sign something, you're gone. Thank you for the money. Um he really put in a lot of time and shook

people's hands and asked them their names and asked them about themselves, so um even though it was different from what I expected, uh he still went above and beyond to make people feel special. Um but then I, you know, I shook his hand and I said, "Hey, you know, this is Young Mike. I'd love to work with you. I shoot videos.

Um how do we do this?" And he said, "Talk to this guy." And he pointed me towards um this guy Orlando, aka Gravity, um at the time. And he was Logic's videographer, who did all his music videos. And I said, "Sweet." I was just super happy to be introduced, and uh we exchanged information, and I think I gave him like an old business card, and um I didn't

Hear back from for a little while. And then uh I went off to college for about 6 months. Um and Gravity followed me and hit me up and said, "Come to New York City this weekend. We're shooting a music video. Uh I'd like your help." So, I said, "Yes." I got on a bus or a pl- I forget how I even got there, but I got

There. Um we shot Logic's Walk on By music video, um which is such a great song, and um it was a great time, and I got to really get to know everyone. Um from there, I was in. And I started touring. Um Gravity moved on to some bigger and better things and um

And I really got to just travel the country and the world with Logic. I was still in school, so I'd leave for weeks at the time. I'd go to Europe and I'd have to work out deals with my professors and uh take online classes, whatever I could do to make it work. Um but you know, in the end I was like, I want to be a part of this still and so I ended up finishing school somehow.

And uh and moved out to LA and um and we really started working with each other on kind of a deeper level at that point. And that's when it more moved into um not quite management. Um this is still almost like it was about eight years ago. Um but we started a production company together.

Uh he's a wildly creative person um and he sat me down and he said, "Hey, you probably know this, but I'm obsessed with TV and film and writing and acting and novels. Um this is the next phase of my career uh and I want you to help me do it." So we started Bobby Boy Productions um and sold scripts to JJ Abrams and Nickelodeon and Paramount. Uh he

Released a New York Times number one best-selling uh novel um and Yeah. I was honored he dedicated it to me and um we're just building. Um and then I guess to just do long story short here, um he ended up parting ways with uh amicably with uh his old management and

Uh I understood his business and I understood his fan base and I understood his needs um more so than anybody else around. Um but we had a partner, Justin Fleischer, who also has a similar background from me and we came together and uh and managed Logic after that and um, built the management company. We

Also manage, uh, 6 Logic's producer, super talented, uh, low-key guy, and I'm excited to get more into what's next for him because there's some really exciting stuff going on with 6 right now, and um, and yeah, so, you know, found my way into music management in a bit of an alternative route.

Um, just to kind of summarize what that route means to me, I've always been on the side of music that connects the artist with their fans. It's content, it's entertainment, um, it's releases, it's interaction.

To me, those are the most important elements of artist management is that connection between artist and fan. Everything else can be either textbook learning or experiential learning, um, tips, tricks, strategies, but that connection is what makes an artist an artist, what makes a

Manager a manager. If you understand what is working there and how to grow that, everything else comes second uh, to that process. So, although I didn't start, uh, in a traditional music business sense in management, I felt like that background really helped prepare me to dive into that next chapter.

I mean, amazing. I have I have a question. And it Yeah. And thank you for walking through. It might be a weird one. What I like to do this podcast is ask very oddly personal questions because it tends to, at least as I understand from the audience, uh, resonates.

Attaching yourself to a vision, you being at that concert, choosing not to drink anything, where you say I want to work with this guy. The way that I interpret your story is not so much I might be wrong. I want to work with this guy in order to project who I can be, rather than this is something I want to be a part of, if that makes sense. And I think they're

They're very distinctive. The almost um I would love to be that. I've never figured out how to be that. I would honestly love to be that, and there's probably a big backstory why I'm not. I have never been able to attach myself to something or somewhere where I want to be a part of it for the movement itself.

So, I don't know how that feels like. It How does it feel like? What was the experience you had then standing that I want to be a part of this where the way that I read you now is still that? Like, what does that look like internally relationship-wise, self-understanding, your own vision? I know it's a lot to unpack, but I would love to for you to break that down for me.

Yeah, it's such a good question. I And you know, in that framing, I'm not sure I've ever quite thought of it that way. Um but I love that way of looking at it. I think it kind of circles back to that palpable energy of what it felt like to be around what was going on at the time.

And it is hard to say there's certainly a lot of that out there now. Um but the way music was, and it wasn't that long ago, but it was just a little bit more centralized, right? There was a little bit more of an understanding of okay, if you're into new hip-hop, these are the artists that you're

Listening to. And there's more or less a handful of them. Um we discovered music through blogs. Blogs had all the power. Um and now everything is very scattered.

So, there's certainly moments where artists take off and they have that, you know, kind of palpable energy. Um I think we see it all the time. But I do feel like there is some type of shift that we've experienced since then, where everyone's kind of having their own little pockets of that. And that's really cool. It's not quite, "Okay,

Here's the movement. Here's what where things are going. Everyone's on board this one or a few trains." And if you like hip-hop, you're on this train. And if you like country, you're on this train. It's just a lot of little cars going their separate ways. Mhm. And that's awesome because that just gives more opportunity to more people. Um

I think the other side of it is just kind of being like young and stupid and having fun. Like, not to minimize it, but I was 18 at the time and um and like that was just so fun.

And now I'm 30 and I still love tour, but when I'm on tour, I often want to be home. I want to be in my bed. Boo-boo. I love going on tour, but um and I and I always will. I'll always be a part of, you know, that world.

Um but there is something kind of special about it when you're young. Um and you're taking risks and you don't know what's next and that doesn't mean, you know, you said you were 31, I believe. Mhm. What do you Yeah. So, we're around the same age.

And we're both working in pretty cool areas that are experiencing rapid shift and growth, and there is there is an energy right now. It just maybe feels a little different than when you're 18. It's a little bit more controlled energy. Um but the when you're young and you don't know anything, there like you can't help but get like sentimental

Thinking back on times like that, and um you know, we're likely in 20 years from now going to think back on today and feel the same thing and be like, why did I take it for granted? So, um it's possible you are feeling that energy right now and maybe won't realize it until later.

You also touching a very interesting point. Um I recently had a podcast with um the team behind Rob a dope that has Snarky Puppy and sort of have been through that whole successful journey, and I was listening I've recently sort of took up running again because I've worked way too much, and I need to sort of make sure I don't do that. So, I was listening to the podcast while I

Was running, and very late in the conversation we talked about um music community. And I had a quite honest statement where I said something to the effect of when you say music community, I don't know what you mean. Like I haven't felt it before. What I have felt before, which might be similar, is a religious setting. I grew up in a religious environment, so I know what

That means from a community perspective. What I'm hearing you say, at least how I interpret it, is you basically touch on the same thing. Like when it comes to the movement, it is sort of this um palpable togetherness, like almost like alignment of like this is something.

Um and that's sort of what you tapped into, and where I would assume you still are now. And the small cars analogy came with is more like the to some degree absence of that it still has its own value, but that's also maybe back to the question now that I also had in that episode a few times ago is the way to attach yourself to something

Probably stems from call it community, call it movement, call it palpable energy. That's probably what you're saying at least how I interpret it. Do you think that's correct? Yeah. Um to clarify you're saying that the community element is No, I was just using I was just using community as like um

Almost a synonym. Uh not necessarily as the actual word. Um more that the energy and togetherness or uh movement, momentum, whatever you want to call it sort of falls within the same emotional category I guess to some degree. Right. Yeah, you know I was talking to uh a close friend about this just uh 2 days ago

About how lonely it can be to be an artist. Mhm. Um you know, I hate that element of it. I do. Uh you know, I see a lot of artists around me um big, small kind of suffer in the same ways from I'm kind of on this journey by myself

And whether or not I have people or not um this feels like the most important thing in my world. And at the end of the day I'm the only one who cares about it. Uh you know, I think that's kind of what means to be an artist. Mhm. Um and I wonder how that changes if at all.

You know, it's not too different, it feels like, from being a startup founder. Where you know, you have people who either work for you or you have investors or you have consultants like yourself, but at the end of the day it's you wake up or it's late at night and you're the only one up thinking about what's going on in your in your world.

Um there's a lot of weight to that. There's a lot of loneliness. Um I don't know if this is necessarily answering your question, but I do think um that's kind of the opposite of that feeling we were discussing earlier about momentum and energy and movement and culture. Um I do feel like an unfortunate side effect of the

Democratization of music is that more people are kind of going at it alone. Um and in their own lanes, so I am curious if technology or any other uh progressive elements in our industry can help address that, but that feels like uh that feels like a problem that's we're going to only see grow more and more.

I might be going into deep water where I can't swim, but I do have a question to that point. So, when you talk about the loneliness and you know, I definitely feel it as a as a founder and sort of working with other founders and narcissists, that loneliness is very striking and evident and always there. Um my question lies in where you believe it

Comes from. And I know there's no one-size-fits-all, but like is it is it the pursuit of excellence or is it the Well, that's actually a question. you nailed it. I'll stop you right there. I'll stop you right there. You want to be great, you want to start a multi-million, billion-dollar company or be able to travel the world and uh

Sell merchandise and meet fans and play your songs that you love. There is uh there's balance in everything, right? Um there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting a day job, uh working your way up either a corporate ladder, either working at startups, whatever it is. There's a lot of gray area. There's a lot of positions we can put ourselves in.

Everything has pressure, right? We all have to perform at the end of the day. You can get fired from your job. There's no such thing as pure stability. I don't want to minimize that type of life is just being comfort and blank. It can have as much stress as um as founders or musicians. Um but generally on a day-to-day level there's a bit more comfort and stability in knowing what's

Next. Um and so if you want to be an adventurer and you want to head off into the wilderness with a backpack and go make go make a fire and survive off the land, which is just my metaphor for being an artist or an entrepreneur, um then you have to be okay with being lonely and you have to be okay with taking risks and knowing that you could fail.

Um that's not to say that feeling is good or it can't improve and we can't find tools and ways to make that better uh because the question remains, do we want musicians in the world and do we want happy musicians in the world? And if the answer is yes to those things, we should be working together to um uh help each other navigate that. Again,

I don't know what that is or what that looks like, but um Mhm. You know, you should know before you start this career path that it is mentally taxing. Um and that's a balance, you know, you get to do one of the best things ever for a living potentially.

Um it doesn't come without cost. Yeah, uh it that's so true. You're tapping into so many great things and I have too many analogies, but I think it's just it taps into a lot of where my mind is going these days. I was talking to I can't remember who I was talking to, but um I think on the podcast where we talked about music and sort of the value of music or the sort of

undervalued side of music. And again, I can do analogies from my own life. I've been in music and music tech for like 12 years. And I have always been quite tech-savvy. Uh so I had like an idea six months ago that had nothing to do with music, but you know, still like, you know, uh like a company that I just wanted to try out. I found three co-founders.

And we sort of built it. I designed uh I designed the products and sort of designed both the company and then help they helped build it. Um I have one similar company in music tech that we've been building for 2 and 1/2 years and I have absolute clarity to like where I believe this can provide value, what problems it solves, and it's just been like an uphill battle for 2 and 1/2 years. This company, we officially launched it 6 weeks later, we had three major

clients including a big bank. It is like holy this is unfair. Like it's just like whenever you venture outside of, you know, what I know really well, which is music. And as soon as you go outside, it's just like there's clients, there's money. And I was like, this can't be true. And I just tried like a few consulting gigs that was not music as well and landed the

clients like this and it paid twice as much. It was like, this is unfair. But so it is and it's funny and but it's the truth. Like, you know, for me I would I would know this from a theoretical standpoint, but it's funny for me to sort of feel my own body as an entrepreneur that I am really good at what I do and I just outside where I'm not as good, and

it's twice, well, 10 times as fast and two times as lucrative. And that, I think that's the environment artists also work in, um which is just incredibly perplexing. Does that make sense? Um Right.

Does that make sense? And that wasn't even a question. It was an analogy. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to minimize like you're probably very good at business and startup. So, the fact that it was just the fact that you went away from music and all this money came, you know, I think uh maybe there's some truth to that, but you're more than likely, you know, and I know

this, uh given what I know about you, very good at uh at business and understanding startup. So, it's not necessarily the departure from music that gave you the success. It was music, and I think I think this is actually a really great thing to bring up.

Um this idea of success and failure and what that looks like in music. Mhm. I think, whether you believe it or not, you succeeded in music. And that doesn't necessarily have to be, "Okay, I became an artist. I toured the world. I, you know, sold millions of records." But it was the pathway to get you to where you are

now. And this idea that success or failure in music is an all-or-nothing endeavor. Um and it's very similar to first the startup world, right? If you fail at a startup, you know, that doesn't mean your life is over. That, you know, likely you, you know, you failed upwards because you tried to do an impressive thing, and if you came anywhere close to

doing that, that's a huge accomplishment. And I think it's the same for music. Just because Okay, I couldn't find how to make it click and how to put money in my pocket as a musician that I was happy with and comfortable with doesn't mean that's necessarily a failure cuz it brought you to where you are now.

And I think that's the case with a lot of people. And that might just be nothing to do with music, but Yeah. there's a lot and you know, it's like telling an athlete who is you know, trying to become professional that Oh, look, like you didn't make it to uh the NBA.

That was a whole waste of time. No, you probably learned a lot about work ethic, communicating with others um yourself, your body, your mind uh what you're capable of and you know, athletes go on to do very successful things. So, I think it's healthy and it's smart that we start thinking about musicians in the same way instead of this all or nothing pass

fail, you did it or you didn't. Um you know, I think that could really contribute to some positive advancements in mental health for musicians as well. So, that's a really good you know, subject I think you brought up there. Yeah, and it's really interesting and I think why people perceive it as so black and white is because the financial is so evident. You know, most others industries or

occupations, it wouldn't be as evident. Um because there is like really no um midsection. There's no middle income musician family. There's you know, there's very few at least. It's sort of mostly struggling to get by or like you've done quite well.

Um I have a question for you. Um and I'm curious because I would assume that you are autistic, you know, running around with the camera, documenting, creating and sort of attaching yourself to that whole movement through that.

But how do you perceive yourself as a manager? Do you perceive yourself as an artist or something different? Yeah, I love that question. Um Yeah, I think uh I think there's a tendency uh for those in business uh sometimes to separate themselves from the creatives.

Uh you know, we call them suits. Oh, you're a suit now. When I became a manager, uh Mike's a suit now. Um and it's funny. But the truth is if you're good at business, you're likely somewhat creative.

And to be creative I guess it's to be an artist. Um I love supporting talented people. And I think even in video film production um to this day I still produce music videos. Um but I'm not holding the camera. I'm not editing.

I am um I'm doing a lot of like uh budgeting and uh and invoicing and uh insurance work, maybe more than I'd like to, but um I would much prefer to find the best person for each job and put them together and create the best thing possible rather than it be like, "Oh, it's got to be me." I actually step aside like, "I

have to be the one cuz it's my vision. Um it's my artistic integrity." And I think there's a place for that and everyone needs to have a little bit of that. They have to know when they are the one to really step in and handle things, but um I am drawn to talented people.

I love putting trust in those who I trust and saying, "Let's create something great together." So, that's true for video production, film, TV, development, music. Um this project we're putting together with Six right now, which is really exciting. Um there's nothing I love more than putting those pieces together. And I think

putting those pieces together is our creative choices. Um just because it might be a hiring or some type of arrangement or there's business underneath it all. Um you know, being a startup CEO, who you bring on as marketing, who you bring on as design. Um those are all creative choices. Like they get painted with

this brush of it being business. But those are all creative choices. So um while it might be difficult to call myself an artist, uh I certainly think if you are a decent manager, you are thinking creatively in some aspect.

And if you're not, then you might not be a decent manager. Um and whether or not you realize it, you probably are thinking creatively if you're a decent manager. We're sort of almost closing in on like a full-ish circle because what we talked on about at the very start of the episode is technologies and technologies enabling

people to be more, well, paraphrasing, holistic in their approach, combining artistic visions with business and Basically what you're saying now is one of the things that I'm really interested in. And that is the concept of being the curator as an artist, rather than the actual um

uh executioner. Um so let's just let's just be there for 2 seconds. And maybe let's even use Logic as an example or six. So, you've touched upon it before, but there's more to them than just being an artist. There's I would assume the word curator could

could fit. Is that like I think you've already said it. Um what I'm trying to say is that's why I believe things are heading more and more. Uh that the creation of your artistry is more important than you being able to execute every single small part of it.

Um is that something you see in the success of your people, the team you represent? Yeah. I think this goes back to a bit of what we talked about in the beginning, which is and I forget if we were recording or not at this point, but to quickly summarize, that an artist should be their own CEO.

Um putting together a good team around you is everything. So, um that means curation. If you're an artist, you have a vision, you can do a few thing Let's use Logic for example. Extremely good at writing, extremely good at rapping.

Um very good at creative concepts, can put together storylines, can put together throughlines, um can build a connection through music as to a greater importance um for those listening to it. And I think, you know, we've seen that album after album for him.

Uh and that's what's connected him with his fan base. Um in the beginning, he couldn't produce. He's now moved into being a producer and has learned um he couldn't play guitar, he couldn't uh play piano. Um there you know, there was a lot he couldn't do, but he learned how to do it or he brought people on who were better than him at doing it.

And from being on business side, we really don't you know, of course there are some disputes here and there, but like things are very peaceful on the negotiation of splits when it comes to at least for Logic and who he works with, it's okay, let's do this fair because you were all a part of making this

happen and I want you all to be included and that's not too different from a startup founder giving away equity in the right places, right? If you are being um stingy and you know, of course be smart. Don't be don't be don't get taken advantage of in any circumstance, but you want people to be bought in to what you're doing.

Um and man, this even goes back to what we're talking about with like movements and energy. It's like that's something that Logic in the beginning and still does, but he's always done so well is get those around him to buy into the importance of what he's currently doing and what will happen next.

Um and that's how you get the most talent around you. That's how you get the most out of the people around you. Um if people are bought in and they're truly bought in then you are an army. You are now not just an artist um and you have so much more power than one person. Um and what's cool is, you know, we are seeing technology help that.

Uh you know, maybe and I know you've explored some AI tools, but um in a more loose term, technology has kind of always been there from uh you know, autotune helping you with your voice uh to now.

We're just seeing more and more of it. So, you can really build a team around tech tools and that's interesting. Uh I don't think that will necessarily just replace um your right hand producer as being everything for you but it could help both of you it could help that producer give you the right sound so the combination of building a really great team

and being able to use those tools that's what I think is going to result in success for artists moving forward especially in the next generation. Mike I have two last questions the last question I'm going to ask is about the future for Logic X and Logic and his team.

But the question I'm going to ask now I feel like I already know the answer for it but I'm just going to have a conversation about it. You talked about Logic being able to I think you said raise an army and sell a vision have people join in. And one of the really interesting things about my career um is that I'm a really natural salesman.

Um and so throughout my career throughout my life I've been able to rally people around me in pretty much everything I do. But I have one common denominator and that is I've always failed. Not always but pretty much always failed and there's one word I've attached to the reason for failure

uh that I've come to learn I would say especially last year and that is um consistency. So my question goes on that. When you look maybe it's a biased question but when you look at Logic for example and when he rallies people around him is that a key element to

success in rallying people? Is that consistency? I'd say so. A lot of artists will come to me for advice like newer artists. Um and they might not have any fans yet.

Maybe they have a few. Um but it's like do you have a friend who's helping you out? Do you have family? Um anybody who has decided to take on a role to give you a push to give you momentum.

And that's kind of a tough question. I don't want to say everything I'm saying is definite or certain. You need to do X, Y, and Z in order to become successful. I think that type of thinking is often wrong and misleading. But from my experience if you're able to get someone close to you just as step one on board with your path in your career

that is the first step in gaining fans and gaining support. Um so I think people ignore those around him around them. Um and really don't see assets where they can use them. But if your friend if you can't convince your friend to hold a camera while you're performing or

come hit record or um help set up lights or uh track vocals, whatever it might be. If you can't get that person on board then you have maybe a little bit more work to do on team building. Because if you can't sell that person on your vision and where this is going and what's next for it you might have a hard time doing that

with fans. And that's not to say gaining fans is just sales. Here, music matters a lot. But then, what happens after that? We don't become rabid fans from a song. We become rabid fans because we connect with the artist.

And that song got us in, but that connection made us stay and open our wallets. So, I would say that to aspiring artists is if you're starting from literally zero, see who around you believes in you.

Work on your sales pitch, if you will. Um and be inspiring. And that can be that can be in a lot of different things. That doesn't mean you give great speeches, but in one way or another, you should be able to get people to believe in what you're doing.

Um and if you're not there yet, work on that skill a bit. But yeah, I think that kind of addresses you know, a bit on that consistency. Mhm. Mike, it's been a pleasure and I've gotten so much for from this conversation. Um what is the future for you and your team? Like, where are you guys heading?

And most importantly, where do you see yourself? Yeah, that's a great question. Um as turbulent as the industry is, um I feel like almost anything is next, uh which is exciting.

Um but just to get a little bit specific, um 6, who is Logic's long-time producer, I've known him as long as I've known Logic. Uh he's been a loyal uh producer to Logic for his whole career.

They've made music together, had incredible success, made millions, um did what a lot of people can't do. Um But what Six hasn't done yet is um do much experimenting beyond that partnership.

Um which will always remain strong and they'll keep killing it as they do together, but um Six for early next year is uh he's been working I can't say too much because it hasn't been fully announced yet, but he's been working on a project uh that's really special and it's going to be a great announcement

um into his arrival in the music industry in a in a larger sense. Um he is just so talented. Uh I'd definitely encourage anyone to go and you know, check it out when it's out. Um he grew up uh playing heavy metal.

Um he loves all he loves all types of music and so that's what we're going to be able to see is just him unleashed and working with plenty of artists. So, very excited for that. It as a manager and as a marketer, it gives me the chance to really kind of um flex some muscles I haven't in a while in other artists in other areas. It's like, okay, this is one of those balls of clay. You can make it what you want

and work with an artist to do that and um we have a pretty great distribution sit situation over at uh over at Two Lost. Um and so really excited to put that out. Um so that's more in the immediate future. Um but then the larger sense, um you know, I want to find I'm really interested in the developing artist.

Um I love working with Logic, going to continue um to do that. Uh he's I can't say where he lives now, but he's out living on a bunch of land and he's with his family and he's going to always continue to put out stuff and interact with his fans, but that dude's has such a amazing comfortable life and he deserves to, uh, cherish every day of

it. Um, and I'm certainly excited for finding new areas of growth as well and um, I'm really interested in the developing artist. I think that artist, um, and I don't know if that's in a management sense. That could be in an educational sense. That could be in a tech sense. Um, but

uh, me and the team are working on some really cool stuff that I can't share too much of yet on the podcast, but um, very much looking forward to kind of what comes next and helping that artist who is starting from square one and doesn't quite know where to go yet.

So, um, that's what speaks to me and yeah, excited to, uh, to keep you updated on it. Amazing. And what I think is so interesting and again, referring back to my own learnings is I also get so much from the novelty.

That's not exactly what you're saying, but he is saying to some degree like uh, and what I the next stage of my life is basically doing what you do. Is see something to the end. Not that logic is the end, but like you can say that like we've take it so far that, you know, it's I'm also free to look at the next step.

And that is my biggest learning. I think also to a lot of entrepreneurs the biggest learning and it sort of ties back to my comment on consistency and that the novelty will come. But don't leave the long journey for that one.

I have at least learned that, for real. Mike, it's been a pleasure. Um I loved this conversation. I'm very happy we connected, and yeah. Thank you, man. Definitely. Thanks for having me. This is awesome. Um looking forward to uh to chatting more with you.