From Rockstar Dreams to ForgeRock's $3 Billion IPO

If you're going to build something, something big, let's go big or go home. If you want to drive from Stavagno to Oslo, you have one liter of gas, don't even start. So if you say that's what you want to do, you leave on. And of course, that means that of course that you are giving away some of your company. At least you get fuel, you can fill up the tank and you can stop driving. Lasse is a Norwegian entrepreneur who was a musician, well, still is a musician, and built a company that he IPO'd with for $3.2 billion.

That is a unicorn. This is an amazing journey, talking about his journey, about music. We did have some technical issues. I hope you forgive me, but it's still a gold episode. Well, Lasse, welcome to the Sound Connections podcast. Thank you for having me. We've been trying to record this for a while, and it's really interesting because not only I do remote interviews, because most of my guests have a pretty international footprint, but you happen to be in the same city that I also live in. You're from here. California or Norway? But you do also live in California.

I do. Yeah. Lasse, this is going to be a quite different and interesting episode because we're going to talk about you and your success. You've built a unicorn, but you started out as a musician, and you're still a musician. And we're going to talk about your founder's journey, your success, maybe even the stress. Yeah. That's a good place. And then also reflect back on the music industry. Because the reason why I want to do this is it's hard to really meet incredible success in the music industry.

And there's many reasons for that, and we'll talk about it. Yeah. But I would also love to see you from the outside, but having an inside perspective, reflect a moment too. But Lasse, I'll give you the honor of introducing yourself. So who are you and what do you do? Thank you very much. I'm a simple guy from the west coast of Stavacker, or Norway, basically. Kind of like, born and raised here, born curious, and that's probably one of the big kind of like driver for anything I've been doing in music, and in tech.

School dropout, but that's something that I'm kind of like very proud about, but my interest has come back in very different things. And now, of course, everything started with the music, kind of like, and my dream was to kind of like to be a rock star. And honestly, I figured that so, but that still comes back to my big passion. Yeah. Well, you can argue you're a rock star in entrepreneurship to some degree. You know, maybe you have some hits, hit songs, you know, you're the best at some music.

So it's have some ups and downs, like everybody. Before we get into sort of your story, I would love to actually just challenge you a bit. When you think about the music industry right now, what do you think about it? Because I can see that you are involved, you have thoughts, you have activities. What's your reading of the music industry right now? I think we even have a big, prominent moment to actually make sure that the artists actually get paid. And so the whole thing about, like, it's been a mess for decades, kind of like, yeah, with music rights, making sure that the artists actually get paid.

How contracts, how, excuse me, manufactured people have been, and honestly, with now, with AI, I think it's getting much worse before it actually gets better. And honestly, if, if this fantastic musicians, artists can't create beautiful songs, kind of fine, life will be sad and boring. I think that's the biggest challenge, the rights, music rights, and making sure the artists actually get paid.

Well, that's interesting. We'll come back to that, because we'll sort of dwell on your success and how it reflects back on your thoughts on the music industry. But I need to understand, you dropped out of school. You want to become a rock star. When did that fail, and did your entrepreneurship start at the same time? Well, you know, it's, there's a lot of, there's kind of a common thread here, because when you're born curious, kind of like you're always looking for something new. And starting, I probably started more balanced than companies, basically, but it's a lot of the same process.

You kind of like, you need to find back numbers that will kind of like, interesting characters. You know, you're trying to get them together, you're trying to get the drummer and the bass player that actually be in sync, so it actually gets cool to me. They're all very strange characters, between them all. Diversity is so very important. And the same thing kind of like with, you know, tech industry. You need insane tech geeks that are sitting in a corner and doing the encoding, and you need extroverted people out there talking about it.

And again, it's all about, it's a teaching work. So in music or in tech, it does not come back one single yard, it's always something together. Even if it's a solo artist, it's a lot of people coming from behind the scenes. Yeah, absolutely. So you understood the combination of band members, but that ultimately failed. Can you explain why you didn't succeed in music? It's kind of very simple, because getting paid for gigs can be hard, and very often when we were playing, kind of like, the bar tab was much higher than what you got for playing the gig.

The business model didn't scale, it was a lot of fun, and of course, sometimes you need to pay your bills, and then you start like, what can I do in addition to kind of like doing the music? Yeah. I think paying the bills is one of the biggest pinpoints in music in general. And it's going to be really interesting to see how that's going to change with AI. It's going to change with what's happening. We won't give all the good stuff right away. But, okay, so what happened?

You just needed to find something besides the music, or did it happen parallel, that you start working on projects, or like on a career side with entrepreneurship? It's, again, it's coincidence, kind of like, the first job I got was actually, yeah, kindergarten, because I met somebody at the party, and we're saying, yeah, I need a job, and I mean, the following contract morning, or our Monday, she called me and said, yeah, I got a job for you.

Okay, yeah, do you want to look after eight girls? Okay, so how old are they? Like, yeah, between one and a half and three. And you know my next question, what about diapers? Yes, of course, they're one and a half year old, let me go on to you there. So that was a coincidence. I, at that time, kind of like, everybody had to go into the army, so I had to do that for a year. Didn't get anything out of that at all.

Well, it's kind of a very kind of twisty story, because I applied for this place where they, everybody had given the divorce test, and I came in, it was like 120 people, and they took the test, and I was number three of everybody that came in for being the best kind of right, best score, because for me, I didn't sit there and count, like count, slow or long. You know, things, it was beats, so for me, it was just rhythm, I liked my rhythms, and so I came out as number three in that year for being the best.

And then there's a big gap from military and kindergarten to, you know, building and selling a uniform. But also the only thing with the army and the music is that I probably have more weekends free than athletes, because as soon as we have a gig, I come in and look at my kitchen, can I get three days off, because I need to travel?

No, they always said yes. Okay, great. Yeah. So I kept on doing it still. And then I came back trying to get a job, and my brother basically said kind of like, because I like to be outdoors, and also kind of like building stuff up and treats and stuff. And I said, maybe I want to get a carpet or something, you can be out in the summer and have it nice. And I said, no, you should go into tank.

I said, why? Because they pay you. It should work. Okay, whatever. My passion was using it anyway, so I don't care. And then I started applying, and I was lucky, because I applied for a company, a computer company, had a lot of data. And the guy that was actually doing the interview, that same day, he was building a company football team. So I had one question. Do you play football?

And I did. Sorry about the job. So that's how I am easy. Okay. Wow. Okay. But has your life always been this coincidental? Is that sort of how it is? Or did the intention start coming down the line? I think it's the roots getting down to being curious. Yeah. Okay. Always because, first of all, I have this saying that I'm never saying that I will do something before I don't want to say no to.

Yeah. So PBS, we kind of like, yeah, I'm checking out. And I think that's being curious that's always been the drive. I'm looking for something you always think you're going to make it some or doing an IPO or whatever. But it's the combination of the systems and curious. In my opinion, I'm probably more in that way. Yeah. So you went into IT. You got this job because you could play football.

Yes. But that turned into the actual IT skills? Yeah. And again, some people are kind of afraid of new technology. Again, for that curious background, I was always kind of like first in line and grabbing every new shit that passed my way. So I did some crazy thing in the company in Oslo. Texas instruments actually. Okay. So what I was doing is, hey, they hijacked me to Oslo.

Then I did some other crazy stuff in Oslo. And it was actually, yeah, people from the headquarters in Austin. That's what I was doing and I could even lost it. So I would lost it. Was it because you had like an innovation project or what? Yeah. Okay. It was basically combining new technology in a very interesting way. And yes, that was everything with respect to doing something new. So you sit at Texas Instruments and you just think like there must be.

What was your thought process? Why did you pursue something new? Like, did you have the freedom to do it? Or like, just give me the context. No. In the end, it's kind of like you want to move to Austin. That sounds fun. You want to move for a U.S. kind of like a period company and why not? Let's try it. And of course, I kind of felt that I was a hit thing kind of like the kinder. They call it the kinderick. The big thing is because, you know, Austin, the best place on one of the best places on the earth for music.

Okay. So that was the secret motivation. Oh, absolutely. Down like on Sixth Street downtown, Austin, you don't look for and wonder where is the light band playing. You wonder how many light bands is in every spot. And the quality was just insane. So then I get paid. I can hear out with musicians and a beautiful place. Yeah.

It's funny because I'm quite the opposite. You know, people rarely ask me anything because I'm so intentional and I want to do that I always like have directions of sort of like, yeah, I don't really look at the outside. Of course, there's coincidences and I, you know, and I greet them when they come. Yeah. But it's quite interesting to see that almost like your career, at least the start of your career has been defined by coincidence and curiosity. Absolutely. Okay. So you end up moving to Austin. Yeah. And you love it because of the music.

Yeah. And you build up skills. When did the founder journey start? Yeah, that's a good question. So basically what happened is that the Texas Instruments sold some of the computer stuff back to another company. Sorry. Back to Norway. And again, the company actually started to be like the corporate contract. Yeah. And that doesn't fit. You want to explore and do new things.

Yeah. So the first thing was this company that wanted to start an office in Stavartar. Mm. And so, and of course, I love this place. So they asked me if you want to come and move back and start that office. Oh. Of course. In coincidence, I said yes to that. Yeah. And then, that was fun for a while. Then of that, I'll just start to get boring. So I'd come from here. I can say it's at least over and over again.

In the end. But did that feel like a corporate startup? Kind of thing? Like you have responsibility of starting this company? A little bit. Yeah. And got a little bit of taste on that. Yeah. And then, kind of funny, this was probably late, late 90s. Me and a friend of mine in that company. We signed the biggest contract for that company ever. And the day after I resigned. And didn't have a clue.

But then I easily did work to do a startup from scratch. So I rented an apartment in the Bay Area in Silicon Valley. Okay. That's proof. So I took a plane over. Kind of like found this apartment starting to have a lot of these whiteboards on the walls. And I said, what the hell should I do? So you moved to the Bay Area without an idea? Yes. Okay. Great.

Really fun story. Because my friend, which was probably one of the best, the safest guy ever. So he's like really good. And we found we really would like to have this technology for that big company in the U.S. and bringing back to Europe. And so we went out and tried to get a contract with him. And finally got a meeting with this executive vice president of a company. And begging for an agreement basically. And then suddenly he looked at us and said, how big is your company?

And I said, shit. And my friend said, you're in at it. So yeah. We got to the end. And happy campers. We went back home and started building. Okay. What were you building? At that time, this was a time when everybody wanted to build kind of like internet portals. In fact, not websites, but interactive things with a lot of applications and stuff. So we built kind of like a framework to read and read tasks, put them together by interactive and then sites.

With some of our own development and some of the infrastructure that they basically, you know. I have all, I know we have read. Hmm. How do you, because when you're a musician, you're very passionate about your craft. And oftentimes you're very particular with the genre and expression. But then the way that you've driven your entrepreneurship life, it has had IT in common, but it also seems like whatever comes my way, I'll embrace it. Yeah. How do you draw those parallels with this intention of my craft and then the entrepreneurship journey that seems somewhat rather coincidental?

Like, did you still have the same passion for the projects? Or what was it that drove you? Honestly, no. Like, my passion is the music and tech is something that I can't find. Yeah. As you said, coincidence kind of like came into. But I think the common thing is that building something from scratch, getting the band together might create something. And there's no difference on building a band together with the team members.

You need to hopefully get them sober with what they get out stage. That helps. That helps. Yes. You need to actually play together and hopefully create a really nice song in your team. The reward is for the public. You can find standing in motion. The big applause you can get. And tech is the same thing for me. You have an idea. Like you have my idea with starting and down. You need to bring five people who you need to get them motivated and believe in the same thing.

And the reward here is that you create something unique. And somebody else can buy it. And they put it to production and get value out of it. So it's a little bit of the same. You know, it's all about people. It's actually creating something that has not been created before. And hopefully somebody likes it. Yeah. And that's the same thing with using your starting and tech company. There's a lot of people who start bands.

Very few who get to stand on the big stages. Yeah. And you got to stand on the big stages in tech with Fort Rock. Yeah. And as far as I understand, you say you love putting the band together. Creating, getting the applause. But there's a very big difference from that than IPO-ing. Yes. Specifically the last phase of that, which is really good. Yeah. But let's jump to Fort Rock. Yeah. When did this happen in your career? When did you start this? So I started that company in 2010.

Yeah. Kind of like built from basically here, as I remember I said, overdose. It was not an overdose. But I still survived. But I was definitely at something true in this step. I think this sounds like a great idea. Let me start calling some people and see if this can fly. And things started to click. And kind of like, again, it's also really hard. The first kind of like phase is the most fun one.

It's the hardest. And you totally broke. So we went down almost like two years without any paid or anything. Yeah. You know, have you seen that the thing where people use your credit card that just run in circles? I actually made star in that. Well. But I'm not proud about that either. But anyway, so just before Christmas 2011, there was an investor that somehow figured out what we were doing.

And what were you doing? So the idea was like all business was a contact moving online. And, of course, if we're going to sell something, you need to know who is this kind of like what services do you have access to? And how do you charge people? You're logging into your bank account or whatever. Everything was moving online. And that was not only the telephone book where you can read the other pages. You have all online services. So the whole security of the app was what we provide.

Okay. And the market is just insanely big. So yeah, it worked pretty well, pretty fast. And you built it with who? So it was people that I know. Some of the people, at least one of them I worked with directly before. And three other people who are basically in the ecosystem around that company. So there was an individual that I had some help I could wish.

So band members, you got together. But how did that look like? So we'll get to the investor. But like you have this idea. Did you have it in a group over the Gin Tonic? Or like what was the constellation in that talk? No, it started sadly alone with Gin Tonic. Okay. And then of course you have some ideas of basically different skills that you need. So like I'm a keyboard guy.

Of course if you want to start a band, you need a drummer, you need a bass player. Then somebody that I should now have to sing. Because I can't. And they totally have to man the ears to that. Even if I had a mic that I didn't turn it on. But that's the constraint. But kind of frankly, it's the same thing here. Like I get a little weird with Sains guy. And I worked with, you know, the best I ever worked with. I needed somebody that was really, now they didn't do it. It's, I get easily bored.

I don't want to sit there and read, kind of like a spec from. And really understanding, I'm thinking that's really cool. So what else can do that? It's kind of like getting, again, find people that has complementary skills. Yeah. Start, start calling them. Start with the easiest first. Nothing worrying, you will, but follow you. And then, kind of like, some of, one of them were in London. So we flew over to be another guy.

And spent a long night to convince him. And so it's, you build it up, kind of like step by step. Okay. Getting the core team together first. So this investor in 2011 was looking to invest in something in this space? Or like, how do you go about it? Yeah, the, of course, kind of like e-commerce, online banking, online everything. Of course, it's the, the market.

It was just, yeah, everything is basically online. But, both then and now. So people were, of course, looking for somebody. But, you know, what they were doing. In, in this space, where, which has to use a huge, aggressive amount of it. I'm not actually sure how they, how they heard about us. I don't, we, I, I didn't figure that out all day. Um, but, um, I was, was also, um, before, before that, um, because we, we're sitting in there and.

If you're going to build something, something big, uh, it's really, really hard to let a bear it. Mm. Kind of like, you're burdened. One dollar, let me spend one dollar. Probably, you, you're dead before you get there. I, I always say, if you want to, if you want to drive from Stavarno to Oslo, you have one liter of gas. Don't even start. Yeah. You know, you will not get there. Mm. So, so we, we set down the, the core group and, um, through late 2010.

Say, what? What do we want to do? Like, you know, have that, this kind of, like, yeah. We call it, and it was very unison. Let's go big or go home. And that was, this is what we want to do. We want to be the, the category leader in our space. And so, if you say, that's what you want to do, you need more. Mm. And that's okay. That means, uh, you need to confront, uh, start kissing little frogs.

Also known as investors. Yeah. Um, and of course, that means, that of course, that you are giving away some, some of your company. You have to, at least you get a few, you know, you can fill up the tank and you can start driving. Hmm. So, everybody was, okay, let's, let's do that. So, I started in, this is probably August, September, 2011. And I started calling investors. I mean, never before. And, um, and, ended up in a top sheet the day before Christmas, 2011.

So, it was, it was pretty good. It was good. And, uh, I've never done it before. And, uh, fast learner. Mm. It's kind of, it's, knowing your audience is always the most open. Sure. Yeah. Kind of like, you, you don't kind of like, yeah, play country master in a blundstuhl, if you know what I mean. Yeah. And, um, also for investors and they, um, they have things they like and the happens they don't like. Hmm.

So, if you just pay it in a bit of attention and you know, fast, uh, it's your story. It proves, um, yeah, in everything. But you said, you said you didn't pull out a salary for two years. Was this also after the best money came in? Did you run it almost like bootstrapped expenses or? Yeah. Uh, but before it, a lot of times it was bootstrapped. Yeah. Uh, in the, uh, in Massachusetts we got, we went from zero to, uh, to get seven million dollars. Which is, that's strange.

That is, that's impressive. Yeah. Okay. That, that's not normal. No. So, don't try that. No. Anybody out there. Uh, but, yeah, uh, we were, we were lucky and, uh, we got a boot. Well, what do you think they saw on you guys? Was that a great team with a timely idea with execution power? Like, what, what do you think was the X Factor? Execution, it's strategy for breakfast. Yeah. And we already wrapped up, we, we had some good traction.

We had some, some good customers who had a pretty unique team. Yeah. We had a, like, a, the, the diversity was where we, you didn't have, like, tight geeks or five sales guys, you had, you had that worse. Uh, and we already done some pretty, pretty cool stuff. Mm. But it's all about execution. Yeah. You said you were pretty broke. Yeah. What, what was your life situation there? Like, uh, did you have a lot of responsibility in your life or?

Unfortunately, yes. Yeah. So, no, it, it was brutal. Uh, of course, when I had the jobs back in my old company, there was, it was, this was much better. And, you know, after selling my car. Mm. Stuff like that stood just good. Yeah. The weeds turning. So, yeah, it had an impact on, you know, on the surroundings. Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm an entrepreneur as well, right?

And, and I just had this talk with my wife yesterday. Yeah. Like, I have three small kids. Yeah. Um, been a full-time entrepreneur for five years. The amount of sacrifices you need to do to pursue this passion. Yeah. It's insane. The thing that we talked about yesterday is like, I can, I can't promise you success. I can promise you I'm happy. Yeah. And then she's like, okay, the only thing you need to return to me is just consistent, stable income. Yep. Then I can accept it. So, that's the next goal. Of course, I make money.

But like, something comparable to give for safety. Because the cost it takes being an entrepreneur is just immensely big. Yes. At least my perspective is, but you can't do it for the price. No. That's too short-sighted. Yes. Or it's, it's misguided or what it's about. I totally agree. So, so what was your motivation? Like, how, what was your explanation to your surroundings? That I'm going to go broke now because of this? What did you tell them? Only half of the truth now. Okay. Really not, not in a bad way, but kind of like, yeah, sometimes you be, being an optimist, as you understand that of course you always think that, yeah, now it's going to happen.

Yeah, yeah. It's going to be okay next month. So you kind of like, you're building it yourself sometimes that things are going well. So, but, but you, you really need that back from, from your partner and if not, it's initially possible. Yeah. And, and of course you're saying, you know, you want, you don't need to tell all the details about how the last builds will actually not really paid. Yeah. And, and as long as you got thrown out of your house, you, you're pretty good.

You also have actually a, a rule of not, I'm going to, um, taking the woman, like, uh, putting kind of like, house or apartments in that safety for a back note. Hmm. So the, the day you have to do that, what's that? Yeah. And that, that was a, kind of like, uh, that we, that we kept. So you, you never contracting. One thing is losing your car. Who cares? Yeah. That kind of like, if you lose your apartment, your house, your family have to move.

That is too much sacrifice. Yeah. So, so we have that, that will, all the, you know, we got a sense of we're not to become a builder. It was tempting. But no, that was, that was where we draw the line. Yeah. Because, you know, at the end of the day, it is insane. So you don't need to also risk livelihood of people depending on you. Um, and I think that's the fine line entrepreneurs need to really discuss for themselves. Yeah. Where does it go?

Like personally, again, for me, like, there's limits to other people's sacrifice. Yes. But there's practically no limits to my sacrifice. And so for that, you know, if that means less sleep and more worries and more stress and because like, it's fine. Yeah. Just as long as it doesn't affect my loved ones so much. Yeah. That it's, it's not worth it. Yeah. I, I couldn't agree more. I'm, luckily it can't like the, in a good way that they're not exposed to this insane roller coaster. Yeah.

Which do start with this and then like every day and hour, it is like, it's kind of like at least two, yoohoo, and five, four. Yeah. But, I mean, yeah, you don't need to explore for that stuff. Hmm. But there's a line for how you shouldn't, but your family shouldn't sacrifice that they go too far. Yeah. So there's a, there's a floor. Yeah. No, I get that. So we'll fast forward a bit.

Yeah. Because in 2019 something, was it 2019? Something pretty incredible happened for your company. Think about the IPL that I, that I, that I announced that I want to quit. Or both. Let's go for both of them. Okay. It's kind of, I, I start with the first song because I remember I was, I was, I was, I was walking from the, where I was standing in San Francisco, over to, over to the office. And half, I have to wait on, on that wall.

I mean, I want to turn around. And I, you know, basically what was, what's going on? And I said, I don't have to sign anymore. That is the, I don't want to go to work together. And then I said, shit, I, I need to do something. So the day after I, you know, I met that person with the, you know, the director of the board, not from the investors. And I said, you know, as a founder, I would never leave the company if the company was in any trouble.

Because people start, they believe in you, your mission, they are sacrificing also. They probably have to take huge pay cuts because you, when I'm crazy at you, you present that day. You're going to put step back with you. So if that was the case, kind of, I would stay around. But at that time, as you did it too, we were on one. Fast track to an IPO, like 850 people. We had 1,100 of the largest enterprises in the world as customers.

And I was like, I'll leave the end up with your Verizon, EDC. You're in the hands. And I told him, you know, you don't need me anymore. And he looked up. I said, well, thank you. Well, what are you doing? He said, I don't know. You don't want to do it again. And I have this, this guy, I was doing the keynote in New York. And in the end, it was this really nice dressed gentleman suit and ton. Very, very gallantly, very polite.

He raised his arms. He was like, from the States, I'm going to do two more startups before I die. And he raised his arm and said, excuse me, sir. How old are you? And that's like, shit. If this is actually going to happen, we need to start again. So I stayed for four and six months just to help them here. You know, it was kind of like dropping out and it was dealing with somebody. It was personally part of work. And nothing bad.

No assholes. Everything was going to an IPO. And which of course happened during COVID. So it was a big bang. It was almost $3 billion IPO. So it's a nice size. The thing is that since I already had left the company before the IPO, my visa was gone. So when I left the U.S. to help it, I couldn't go back to New York to walk straight and ring the bell.

So I was in a hotel room in Oslo. And I was in a hotel room in a hotel room. And I was in a hotel room in a hotel room. And I was in a hotel room. And I was in a hotel room.

So let's switch a tiny bit to the music industry. Because you've also had sort of your focus a bit on the music industry. Yeah. And I assume it's because you love it. Or I don't know if you love the music industry. But you at least love music. Yes. And there's something to be addressed. So we discussed a tiny bit before. It's not something that has really taken shape yet. But it's been under a long process. Was it related to the thing you said at the start. With one of the big problems in the music industry.

As it's being paid. I don't think it started as kind of like economically kind of thing. That was kind of like the thing. But it is just seeing how many really good artists are sacrificing. And kind of like are starving. And other people are not lucky enough to start a tech company. If you know what I mean. Good. And not so knowing the impact music has on everybody's life.

How will the world be without music? For all of us to live. And so my passion is on this was also the where. So I started another company that has. Had a lot of love or time. With some persons in LA. And the whole idea was actually. Serving two first class citizens.

The first one was actually to make sure. That the artists actually making a living. So that they instead are on creating. And the other one was of course that. The fellow can still have great experiences. And for me at least. There is nothing better in the world to actually see a life. Like I get your response. I can't just think about being out there. It is the energy. It is the crowd. It is the sound. It is the smell. It is the sweat. It is the real thing.

And the problem is of course. First of course. First of all. These concerts are extremely expensive. Yeah. There are many people to. To Taylor Swift. And. Not that. I am a big fan of Taylor Swift. But anyway. It is the ticket size ticket. It is extremely expensive. And. Also you had prowling. And stuff. And of course. Not. A lot of big bands. Don't end up in Norway. It was. It is a very strange way to.

To bring all your. We'll go Gary. And it's the end of the world, you need to go back. So we wanted to use technology to actually solve those two problems and make it easier for artists of making money, but also having opportunities for more people to actually get as close to a concert as possible. So we started doing a lot of metaverse kind of thing first, from you that got to 2K, if you know what I mean, with stage avatars. I want to see the way people.

Then we went and spent a lot of time into VR. Again, it is expensive equipment. It's not social. You sit there and you can't find your mask and paralysis in the room. And if you're back with what you've got, 2K after 3 minutes, anyway. So, 13 was actually, you know, you've seen this around browser technology, or mixing with 3B antar, 9-month avatars, but a whole ramps and make it possible for actually artists to play live in many locations at the same time.

At the same time, there were three of us that the farmers did to kind of, like, get actual film locations. It was bad. That's a bad one. I don't remember what you asked me about. No, that's fine, if that was the problem you were addressing. But it's interesting, because there is a lot of problems to be solved. But as you also said, if you only have one liter of gas and you go into a hospital, you know, maybe you shouldn't drive. And one of the big issues in music is access to capital. And I see that there's a lot of reasons why.

Maybe upside is not that big. Like, the chances of building a unicorn like you is incredibly small. Yes. But also, there's so many other issues and bureaucracies happening. Why do you think, from an entrepreneur's and investor's perspective, why the music industry might not be attractive to listing? First of all, there's a lot of people out there only driven by the money side of it.

And of course, specifically in the beginning, being a songwriter or doing a startup kind of thing, the one thing you can't afford is actually a good lawyer. So, a lot of people are really, the foundation gets wrong in the beginning because you have a lot of people that are kind of like getting the foundation for you. And I think that has killed a lot of great artists that have met the wrong people in the beginning.

You didn't have a lot of choice of filling up your tank, so you took whatever was and then you basically figure out that it was water and not kind of like gasoline, but it was kind of like a foggy for driving. But this is where, of course, having access to members or to provide advice for people that have done it before and take the time to actually really figure out what's bigger in the seat on this paper.

Yeah. It's really important because if you have the wrong foundation, if you're building a house in Cambridge, it's wrong, it's not going to fall apart. Sooner or later, probably at the worst time in your career, basically. But things are really starting to impact. I've seen that happen with a lot of companies and also a lot of artists. Yeah. So basically what you're saying is why you believe that the music industry might be hard to build and invest in is the general lack of foundational work.

Yeah. Because the thing is, a lot of people that do startups in the music industry come from a passion of music. Yeah. And sometimes that lack of driven by business sense or due diligence in how to do this is overshadowed by the passion for the project and the impact. Yeah. And not recognizing the problem enough and the potential solutions and all the complexities surrounding that might be one of the big reasons why people fail.

Yeah. I think it's part of it. I mean, you see in the tech industry also you have brilliant technical guys that kind of like this writing code faster than Ivy Donald Duck, you know, that are brilliant. But of course, if it's not solved, I mean, if you're not kind of like having other team members that have actual brain or actually looking after the business, it is going to get broke. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's the same attack. It's the same, same in music, again, back to the whole diversity. In fact, if, if you know you are the, what the sense guy looks for, look for the geek. And if you're the geek, look for the sense guy. It is a team sport. Hmm. You see a lot of technical, really technical people, they get also so in love with their, with themselves. And I think whenever they create it, it's so unique and so good.

It doesn't help if nobody else can see it or ever. It's so interesting because when you talk about the music industry or entrepreneurs, there's always this perception from the audience pretty much that things just blow up. Yeah. You know, or they just made a hit and they become, become really big. What was really interesting when I moved away from Denmark four years ago, I knew three people that basically a year after I moved out became the biggest artists in Denmark. And the narrative was like, oh, that went fast.

But, but I, I know all of the backstories. I think the average time for these three artists to become as big as they were was 12 years. Yeah. Like 12 years careers, different artists projects, being songwriters, trying out, trying out, trying out. And at the end, they all found themselves with the right producers, the right songwriters. Yeah. The right musicians, labels, managers. Correct. To when things came together, they could sustain a career. Yeah. And I think that illusion might jump into people's music startup mentality.

Like we can also be a hit artist or hit songwriter or entrepreneurs in general. Yeah. And I see this over and over again. And that's also been my mistake when I was younger. I'm still a young puppet. Yeah. Is, is the assumption that the coincidence carries a lot of weight and it does, but it doesn't over time. You need to still sustain yourself. You need to still have the right people around yourself. I, I think, and I totally agree with you. And I think the key word is persistence.

Yeah. I, I went to this thing in LA and that was kind of like famous musicians. And it's also built on the film industry and for dance and stuff. And the course was actually the, the drummer of, of Johnson Roche's that had, which was hilarious, but that's different stuff. Yeah. But the, every story was about 10, 12 years or struggling, trying, failing, kind of flying, producing, demo tapes or, or whatever you did in those days.

And, and the, the common thing was they wanted it so much more than everybody that actually failed. Hmm. Yeah. And as you said, persistence and every documentary you, you see it on the musical. So they take, they, but they went home and doing this for a long time. Yeah. I was very lucky to see you on stage at impact awards here, the regional thing. And one of the things he said from stage was as an entrepreneur, you cannot have a plan B.

No. Um, because you know, speaking of that, if you have a plan B, you're not setting yourself up for persistence. No. It doesn't mean that you should be stupid. No. Yeah. Don't jump out of planes without a parachute. Yeah. No. That's, it's, it's been incredible talking to you. And I think what's really interesting about this talk is sort of the musician mentality you bring to entrepreneurship. Uh, and I'm really going to think about the band member parallel.

Yeah. I think one of the things that I have struggled myself with the most in my career is finding band members. And I think it has something to do with, I'm quite particular. Uh, and, and I think sometimes I fail to recognize, um, how to see the right things in others. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, even though I'm very business with, I'm an artist. Yeah. And I get blinded by the art I'm making. I forget the context, I'm getting better at it.

But it's very inspiring to hear from you that's sort of been your focus and that's how you believe you have succeeded. Yeah. And accepting the difference. Yeah. And I mean, we're all different, but it's actually that, that diversity that actually makes magic happening. Hmm. Right. I often also say, come on Frank, you know, being a manager for Rolling Stones and being a manager for Keith Richard, it's probably not easy. Probably not, no. But at the end of the day, that's the biggest drop in the world.

Yes. So, and I, I think that's what you need to do with starting a band, starting a company and there's probably people that are not like you. Yeah. That's a good thing. Hmm. You just need to, to come off from it. Take you down with that and get the others. Oh. So if you were to, again, I'm putting you on the spot. Um, if you were to recognize, uh, a potential company or direction in the music industry that you believe would be worth pursuing, what would that be?

What, what would be the thing to pursue right now? Again, I think everybody wants unique experiences and, and that are affordable and not kind of like you, you got, you got this because your dad or your mom is kind of like billionaire and kind of like hire some super artists to come into to your birthday party. And I don't think that's what you look for, right? And pursue, um, innovation, technology, kind of like that gives you a unique experience.

Almost personal. Hmm. I, I think that is something special. I have this, um, I'm not very qualified, you know, into art. Um, but I had this fellow, I mean, having this, like a picture like this on this wall. I mean, was kind of a topy in love with this. And I said, you know, what is it? And I found he has been spending the evening with the artist. So we had a connection. Hmm.

And I think getting those, that kind of using technology, whatever, getting it, these unique experiences, uh, that actually there was a story behind it. Yeah. Uh, our pursue. Ghost takes unique moments. Yeah. I had that out of that scale, of course. Absolutely. And I think there's also a societal pushback on things that are not into human. Now with AI and you don't really know what's real is not real.

Nope. So you're consistently seeking out the real moments. Yeah. If not consciously, then subconsciously. Yes. And I believe the, the society is going towards that. So I totally agree. Yeah. I think it's going to be, yeah. It's interesting to divide here between. Very interesting. Fake and real. Yeah. And how to combine fake with real. Yeah. Or use fake to make something real. Yeah. Absolutely. So, so that's the interesting thing. Using tools is okay. Yeah. That's it. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for your time.

Thank you for, for doing this. And, and thank you for loving music while you have success. Still, that's my biggest thing. Because we need successful people to look at the industry. We need, we need people to understand the journey to also help others understand the journey. Because ultimately, as you know, music has worth. Yes. And entrepreneurs has a potential impact to making the surroundings of music better. Yeah. And the surroundings around people who create beautiful things better.

And that is a good thing. And recently. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Les. Really appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you.