Super Tickets: Reimagining Ticketing for the Web3 Era

Hey guys and welcome back to the Sound ConnectionsPodcast. Martin, welcome. Thank you for having me. Martin, we've known each other for a littlewhile and we have a thing in common that we really like tickets for different reasons. I'm a part of a ticketing startup and youhave a ticketing company that's very successful within the cinema world.

And more than that, you are great at writingsmall pieces on LinkedIn about technology topics. And I've been following you very vividly andyou were one of the very good mid -journey prompters back in the day, so well done. But now you have a lot of great thoughts ondifferent things. Martin, we're going to talk about super ticketstoday.

And it's an interesting topic that actuallyvery few people have a good grasp of. But to set the scene, Martin, who are youand what do you do? Yeah, so I am the CEO of DX. We're a tech company. We do ticketing and venue management systemsfor cinemas, but also for live event venues.

My background is originally as a graphicsdesigner. today and I am just like really curious abouttechnology in general and guess that's what's gonna let me down this path of super ticketsand some of the technology that surrounds that concept.

Mm. One of the really interesting things aboutour talk today is I was reading a post you did or rather a blog post talking about supertickets. And what I think is very interesting aboutyour profile is that you run a ticketing company. So you obviously know about the ticketingindustry, but the way you write about new technology is rather objective. Is yet you're not like this evangelist goingout preaching like, you know, this technology, this startup.

It's more like, at least as I read it, objectiveobservations of technology and how it's going to approach us. But then you also have. domain expertise for doing yourself and alsothe emotional investment of what do we need to do. But you got into DX and has that always beena passion of you? Like you want to do ticketing or how did youend up there?

No, so the backstory for DX, the DX is nota startup. It's quite the opposite of a startup we wereapproaching our 30th year in existence, which is impressive, I think.

There's not a lot of technology companiesthat... that go on for three decades. But it was originally started by my fatheras a on -premise software company, shipping CDs and disk drives and stuff out to customers.

Hmm. So I kind of fell or walked backwards intothe ticketing industry by way of my father being the founder of this company, workedhere in a bunch of different roles. I've been CEO for the past five years now.

And obviously we've come a long way sincethe... the early beginnings of on -premise basedsoftware. We are now a software as a service company. We're currently building an entirely new nextgeneration of our platform. So it's been a journey.

The fact that it's ticketing. accident, but it's a space that I've grownreally passionate about over the past 10, 12 years. There's a bunch of interesting nuance to it. And not just the ticketing itself.

One of the important things for us at DX andwhat we build is that we really believe in understanding the... the value chain behind the ticket, whetherthat's on the cinema side with regards to distribution and studios or in the live eventside with artists and booking agencies and stuff.

So in a lot of the products we build, we builddeep integrations and tools to serve the whole value chain, not just the ticket sales itself. Hmm, because it is a complex industry. And if you think ticketing is only about tickets,then you're just scratching the surface.

I think we'll talk a bit about that in depth. But the concept of super ticket, can you unfoldthat a bit for me? Yeah, so where it comes from is me readingand thinking about the combination of these emerging technologies, NFTs, blockchain networksand so on in the context of ticketing and I guess the entertainment industry at large.

And during the initial NFT craze a few yearsback, one of the real world utility examples that were pulled forward and still being pulledforward is tickets.

Tickets should be NFTs. That's a cool thing. And yeah, and I want to understand that conceptbetter. I think there are some really interestingproperties of this technology that is helpful in some cases with regards to ticketing.

We also think it's a, like that conversationover index on. a very small subset of the, what I think isthe broader potential. So the idea of this super ticket is to considerthe tickets, so like across three dimensions, like a ticket gives you access to somethingthat's like the core thing.

But a ticket also have two other interesting, One is as a collectible or I think of themas memory tokens in like a digital context. The way that we back when tickets were paper-based kept ticket stops after concerts and serves as a memory of me being there.

And the third thing is that it's like a proofof something. It's a proof of being there, experiencingsomething almost like an attestation for. for the ticket holder. And the super ticket is like a theoreticalconcept exploring how NFT technology, for instance, can be used to amplify all threeof these qualities of a ticket.

Hmm. Because if you consider the journey of ticketsfrom paper ticket to what's now the de facto standard of the ticket is digital, but it'seither an email or it's a PDF attached to an email or it's a QR code in an app.

But once the event is over, that ticket ismoved to some off screen archive. So we... We got really good at the frictionless accessquality of tickets when we made them digital. So I lost both the memory quality and I thinkto a pretty significant degree also this...

utilizing the proof of attendance qualityof tickets, which we didn't really have with paper tickets either, so it's like a new quality,I think. Hmm. Yeah. And there's a lot of things to unfold in thatbecause already now from the outset, oh, that sounds very theoretical, but when you looktowards where technology is taking us, it goes quite beyond just theoretical.

Sometimes I like to start with a conclusionand then sort of build it towards it. One of the things you say in your blog postis you believe in some time all tickets will have NFTs as it belongs to NFTs or being NFTtickets. Let's not explore why you say that first. Let us just go to first of all.

Okay, so you have these three functions. You have entrance, you have memorabilia, andyou have proof. Beyond the theoretical aspect of that, whatare the practical applications of addressing these three different legs?

Well, I think one of the really importantadjacent concepts to the super ticket is the idea of fandom, like what is fandom and howthat slit drives pretty much any entertainment property, whether...

It's a movie franchise or an artist or a sportsteam. Fandom is like this aggregate energy thatpowers the whole thing. And to me, the super ticket is a tool to utilizeand leverage fandom in a more tangible way.

If you consider an artist today, the proofor the data of engagement is siloed and fragmented across a bunch of different... platforms and places you've sold tickets youhave fans that Stream music on Spotify you have people making fan videos and take talkand it's all fragmented and you have people that bought tickets and went to your concertsand There's like no really good way to You don't have a almighty system where an artist can go and say, hey,give me a list of my thousand true best fans.

And so I think that the main, one of the biggestpractical implications of moving this in this super tickets direction is enabling more tangiblefandom. utilizing that in a way that benefits boththe object of that fandom but also the fans that power that energy.

Yeah, because if you look at tickets, it'salso just on a base logical level, one of the best indicators of seeing if the personis a fan, well, or at least saying a person who have bought a ticket to your concert ismost likely a fan. And, you know, it's hard to say that in otherdifferent ways of consumption of music, but whether concerts or tickets being probablythe most evident.

That makes a lot of sense. And we speak a lot about fandom on this podcast. We've had amazing guests that are expertsin this space. And as you say, ticketing keeps getting mentioned,but it also seems like it's still a bit out of reach in a way, because if everyone agreesthis must be the way, and people have said that for a couple of years, what is standingin the way of this being implemented?

That's a good question. And I think there are several things. One that I can relate to from my perspectiveis building a ticketing system and having done so over...

over many years and seeing towards many othersectors of the entertainment space. the, you know, it's a technology challenge. Like there are a bunch of things that I maywant us to do at DX, but that is just not, you know, practically possible for us to doon the current technology stack, for instance.

So I think that's one part of it. I think another pretty significant part ofit is, uh, people orienting towards proprietary datain this protective fashion.

When we talk about NFTs and blockchains, weassume that the people listening understand the general properties of a blockchain. And one of the... important things is that it's a public ledger,you know, so it's the very opposite of, um, like safeguarding proprietary data and keepingit walled off in your database and then finding ways to, you know, monetize this databecause I'm the only one that has access to it and putting things on the public blockchainis like the...

the absolute opposite of that approach, right? So I think there's like, business andstrategy concerns, or not necessarily concerns, but just like, this is the ingrained way thatwe do things and data as values, we keep data close to us and we protect it and so on.

Hmm. It's a really interesting point. One of the things when I'm out in the marketspeaking to players in this field is there's now a few different infrastructure companiesthat are working on this, like by building private, like banking blockchains, like howbanks use it and how implementing that in other productizations for that exact reasonthat, you know, you have data, that's worth something. You don't want to put it in a public, butyou can tokenize it in a private setting.

Do you think if, if, that technology, the underlying technologyis adopted at large that will maybe address the issue you're mentioning. But from a privacy concern, it will. And that's another challenge or new paradigmor pattern for us as consumers to grow accustomed to also this concept of data available ona public ledger.

Like imagine we move all of e -commerce onchain. Hmm. it's probably not an optimal situation thatI can like because I follow you on chain I can see everything that you're buying everysingle online store and I can do that with my neighbor and yeah you know probably notan optimal Hmm.

or wanted situation, right? So that's why, yeah, there's a lot of technologyor blockchain related technology that aims to address these privacy concerns with serialknowledge proofs and so on. Hmm.

don't ask because it's too technical for like,I don't properly understand it, but like generally just being able to prove that I know thisthing or have done this thing without showing you the actual data of the thing creates aprivacy layer.

Ha! So I think you know blockchain technologywill evolve to the place where that becomes less of a concern and so I think maybewe were left with this like the bestness value of legacy data and already gathered data andlike which for instance, in this ticketing consideration or like considering the tickets and ticketing industry, it's really interesting like wholeverages blockchains in the best way.

Will it be incumbent existing players thatadopt the technology or will it be new ticketing providers that build natively on top of blockchains and can do something unique because they're not dependent. old strategies or business dependencies.

That's really interesting. We've talked with Paul Podlon, who's a NorwegianCEO from MusicDNA. And he talks about tokenization of data, whichbasically means, I'm paraphrasing, but like you have legacy data that you're not usingor using it very limited and have the opportunity to monetize that through other ways of utilizingfrom different products, different companies.

He calls it tokenization of data in a collaboration model. Have you had any thoughts of that if therewas a possibility of tokenizing your legacy data and making that available for other typesof monetization through marketing or that kind of stuff? Like I understand the concept and I guessthere are, I could see scenarios where that's an approach that might make sense across differentindustries and would among other things require

that you actually have someone or somethingthat's interested in ingesting that data. a meaningful way and being able to monetizeit. But I think one of the fundamental conceptsof on -chain products that got me interested in originally some years back as this orientationof shifting...

ownership and the power of controlling datafrom middlemen and to the consumer. You know, we built this interesting internetthat our currency is attention and we get services for free but we get a bunch of adsin return, right?

That's the whole internet that we built. Hmm. Mm. Um, and so I think it's more interesting tolike consider, uh, like what does products and the value proposition for consumers looklike in this world where the power source and like more leveled out where I as a consumercan have more control of my.

online identity and the data that I collectas I move around online. And that's one of the really interesting partsof blockchain networks, I think, is this idea that I can bring me and my history and mydata across the internet to different services.

And I can choose to share data because there'san interesting incentive given back to me. Hmm. So, yeah. That's great. So you're looking through it from a consumerlevel. And let's just be practical with tickets,for example. You are a person who has attended severalshows where there was NFTs as tickets, and you now have digital proof you were thereand you own those NFTs.

And then you, let's say you meet certain productizations where you can utilize that proof to have a benefit. Do you have any practical examples of howthat might look? So the, you know, the base examples that peoplewill pull forward here is like unlocking something after the event and maybe the unlocking ofsomething, whether it's like a limited edition merch or like after event video or whatever.

To me, that's maybe less about unlocking thesomething and more about re -engaging and keeping a connection with the fan or the customeror whatever you want to call them after the events, moving beyond thinking about an eventas a...

Hmm. It's like standalone independent thing andmore a part of a continuous journey. It's like if you have like your favorite artistor the example that I use coming from the movie industry, if you're a big Marvel fan,you're not a Marvel fan.

Hmm. when you go to the movies to see the latestMarvel movie and then when you go out of the theater, your fandom sees to exist. You know, it's like a continuous thing. Hmm. And so it's like thinking about these differentinteraction or touch points for a fan to connect with and engage with the thing that they'repassionate about and having all of these different touch points like bond together and over timethey accumulate to.

some kind of benefit. So it's like a continuous thing. I think that's one of the interesting, interestingconcepts. And going back to the music industry, youcould think of the example the opposite way.

Like it's not the ticket that serves as likethe... thing that you show but the ticket is thething that you get because you have proof of these other ways that you have engagedover time whether it's like streaming music or creating or curating content or and becauseyou've done because you have proof of fandom you get free access to buy the ticket.

Hmm. Wow. That's a really interesting concept and I'vethought about it a lot before but not sort of in the way they describe it through likea chain of events and a chain of touch points might equate to something. You know I'm just making a hypothetical scenariolike one of the big critiques with you know the whole Taylor Swift tour is that the actualfans even if they wanted to spend their money they just simply couldn't.

There wasn't enough quantity and all the dealsthat were existing with credit card companies and business deals and So even if you're a fan that had the capitalto buy it, that was by no means a guarantee that you can get any tickets. I'm not saying that situation would be different,but what you're saying is there's methods in the future from if you are a proved fanwith several different touch points that you can be given preference to certain things.

And I think especially to come into the bigcommercial at scale use, that really plays in. You want to be in a room with the people who... want it the most. That is a good thing for an artist. Yeah, true. And it's interesting that you pull out theTaylor Swift example because it's like the first thing that feels like everyone, includingmyself, talking about music and live events and big concerts and take it again.

It's like the beautiful concept to our exampleto pull forward, like the way that she broke, Techit Master when her tickets went on saleand stuff. And... Mm. Hmm. I think it's really good that you pull forwardthat example because one of the things that I push a bit back on with this super ticketthesis, it's also like a lot of the talk around NFT tickets orient towards NFT tickets helpsolve scalping, NFT tickets helps, you know,

you get to capture Resale revenue royalties and reselling likethose are the two really big like this is what NFT tickets can enable and Nobody likepause to consider the fact that for the vast majority of venues and artists and theatersand whatever selling tickets Scalping and Hmm.

reselling like non issues. It's like the highest, the most in demandevents, which is like probably 1%. I don't know. There's like a tiny sliver. It's like the top 5 % of events have thisproblem, right?

And for most other events, you don't havea massive scalping problem or... Hmm. And that's also one of the things that I wantto try to address with this concept of the SuperTicket. How can this technology be used as a...

positive something that maybe can let artistsor creators or whatever sell more tickets or create more value from their fans becausethe scalping and reselling are almost like using the technology to stop surplus demandfor what you're selling.

Hmm. Very few artists have that problem. Unfortunately, maybe, but it's the reality. Hmm. It's actually really interesting because,you know, I spent a lot of time in this space and we've had an interview for 30 minutesand it's first now we talk about actually the two biggest talk points you had aboutthis technology, but I'm of the same conviction of you that I think in an investor setting,if you have a startup talking about those two major problems are very visible.

It's very tangible. You have many examples, but it's much harderto preach the future, which is. The way of spending money will change. Artists will not accept the power structuresright now. They will not accept that they don't havean influence of how to engage with fans. And the underlying technology powering the industry will change and facilitate an infrastructure where you can monetize on these things.

And it's much harder to tell that problem,but you know, with you and me that spend a lot of time in this space, that's really what'sexciting is, you know, on a day to day level, people can be affected through their fandomand through different utilities in order to supplement the experience. It can expand the experience.

It can even enable an experience that wasn'taccessible before. And this speaks so much to the superfan economythat the music industry is so tied up to right now because, you know, being honest, our industryis too small. We need more revenue. So right now, OK, the people who can spendmore, wants to spend more, we need to create an infrastructure for them to actually doit.

The problem with this is, Matsun, I wouldlike your perspective on it, is the timeline. You know, there's a chicken and egg scenarioin many different levels here. Could you expand that a bit for me? What is the chicken and egg scenario and whatis the timeline going into this, if you were to make a thought experiment about it? Yeah.

It's interesting. Yeah. From the perspective of the super ticket,the chicken and egg problem is that the true value of bringing tickets and other partsof fandom on chain only surfaces after we have moved it on chain.

So there is like... Hmm. not that much of a first degree value in doingit, but it's once all the different constituent parts have moved on chain, then you have accessto this interoperable way of composing customer experiences.

And that creates an interesting dynamic wherewhat is the incentive to... Hmm. to invest significantly in technology, forinstance. Like for DX, what is the incentive for usto build a lot of technology in order to move tickets onto blockchains if they're...

Like if nobody else has done it yet, thenthere's nothing to interface with. So we can't create any additional value. Or maybe there are someone else and so itcreates additional value, but it happens so far out on the spectrum from where we are. So we're not able to capture any of it.

It creates this... Hmm. interesting dynamic, I think there are someprojects that are working to try to find ways to bridge this. Just last week, I was on a call with a projecton the Camp network, like a blockchain layer two project that aims to create data backpacks.

consumers. So you put data from your web to social profileslike YouTube and streaming history on Spotify and stuff and put that into like a data backpackand you bring that with you on chain so you now have data from the off -chain world whichyou can bring into blockchain enabled services.

start building tailored experiences and stuffbased on the, so like you hydrate the next generation experience with data from the previousgeneration experience. Like maybe things like that could solve thischicken and egg problem.

The other thing that, Mmm. I think we'll eventually solve it as justthe, it's like the force of consumer well, like if consumers broadly move in the directionof, it makes sense for us to own stuff online.

We want more control of our own data and wesee that there's value in data and we want to take a bigger part. of selecting that whole economy. And so we start orienting towards the servicesthat can enable that for us. Then also like just naturally create a forcethat pushes technology providers, service providers, including the acts to build itbecause our customers will start asking for it because their customers start asking forit.

I prefer to be earlier than that, like personally,in the way that I think about building technology products. But more broadly, I think that's maybe what,over time, pushes an industry in a direction. And it's like the way that it's been historicallyas well, right? The consumer preference is pretty important.

Hmm. It's a really, really interesting conceptwhat you're saying. And there's so many sides to it. Like one is from an entrepreneur side. The week before this podcast has been released,a podcast with Scott Cohen came out and he built the orchard that probably doesn't sayanything to you. It's the world's first digital distributioncompany. They spent eight years before iTunes cameout.

which means they built the underlying technology. So when iTunes came out, they representedthe third of the digital licensed music out there. And then suddenly, it was a pretty successfulcompany. But the audience can listen to that. But what's very clear from that story is thoseeight years were pretty bleak because they were so early on that, yeah, they succeededat the end, but that's not a guarantee that will happen.

So the big question is for me, is when is the timing? Is the timing already now? Will it be in the future? Was it a couple of years ago? My own take on it is that I do see this consumerpush. I also do see there's a lot of technologycompanies recognizing this consumer push.

What I don't see is the infrastructure beingthere and probably not in the near future. So the question is if you build technologyproducts, What's the timing in order to optimize thatopportunity the best? And I guess that is the big question becauseif your assumption holds true that this will happen, when is the timing?

If you were to give your opinion on when thetiming would be. What would that be? Yeah, so. First of all, it makes me, like this specifically,but being a part of and spending a lot of time on like on chain things in general overthe past few years.

served as like a constant reminder of somethingthat's called Amara's Law. Maybe you've heard about it, as an early Amaratechnologist. His law states that we tend to overestimatethe impact of a new technology in the short term, and we significantly underestimate itin the long term.

Hmm. And speaking from a historic experience, Iremember vividly when we first started building and launched mobile ticketing solutions atDX. We did that in 2011 with this conviction that...

People are going to we see people buy significantamount of tickets online From their desktop computers. We think they'll do the same with their mobilephones in the first few years after we launched that Barely annotates result through mobilephones and then after a few years it started being adopted and now it's takes up the majority of tickets sold onlinethrough our platform.

And I spoke with some of the people that werehere in the early days when we first launched online ticketing, so just selling ticketsonline. DX was really early. We launched this in 2002 or 2003. And for the first few years, nobody boughttickets online.

And then over time, it started increasinglittle by little and then a lot. And now it's like almost every single ticketis sold online, either on a desktop computer or the majority share now on... on mobile phones. And to me, it's those two DX experiences arelike patterns of that law.

Things take time. And so I think the same will be true here. I think it's still like a nascent technologyand that one that... It's yet to be fully understood by most people.

And the thing that clouds everyone's viewas one of the core unlocks of tokenization and blockchains is financializing things,financializing things that were not. financial before and so the effect you getis a lot of financial speculation, right?

And everyone gets caught up on it's like everything that's happening on like this over indexing on financial speculation and don't understandor pay attention to the developments that are that are continuously happening. I am very like my conviction is stronger now.

than it was a few years ago. Because for the past two years, nobody's givena crap about crypto and blockchain and Web3 and NFTs and like prices fell largely drivenbecause of inflation and interest rates and just the macro picture.

But with... Hmm. prices on the financial assets on blockchainsplummeting people just oriented their focus towards something else happened to be a chatGPT watching around the same time, right? So now everyone pays attention to AI.

But those that were... Hmm. left in the space continue to build and allthe things that I see being built and that have been built over the past two years liketooling for creators and whether it's like visual artists or music artists or writersand on the creator side but also a lot of other the way that wallets work today.

is two or three years ago. The space is maturing and it's getting morewholesome. But for mainstream... You can still quite a few years until everyticket is an NFT.

Maybe every ticket won't become an NFT. Like it needs to serve a purpose. That's like my other itch with NFT ticketingprojects is like if you sell NFT as the value prop, like something's wrong. Like there's gotta be something that the technology unlocks that needs to be the value prop and whether...

Hmm. You know, it's the scalping problem or it'sthe take it as connective tissue in a fandom graph. Like what the thing that different entertainmentsectors will value the most. I think it's yet to be discovered. It's interesting.

I'm super passionate about this space andI believe in this space a lot. I think there's some beauty in this beingoverlooked for some time. I think sort of especially from investor scaredness has decreased and sort of we come into a calmness about it in a level that only serves the progressto be honest.

I don't think any technology have really been. fully served by having too much hype and subsequent crisis and fall. But it happens over and over again. So it's just a matter of learning from history,which is interesting that a lot of people don't do. Martin, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

It might have been a bit nerdy, but it reallytouches upon the future of entertainment and its relationship to the consumers. And I think the concept of a super ticket. is extremely interesting.

I need to understand. Do you believe that there are some major politicalor bureaucratic or monopoly powers that are also contributing to the decrease of advancementin this space? Like, is it just a matter of infrastructureand consumers not tying together, or is there some other players in this space that aretrying to stand against it?

What do you think? Feels like you're fishing for something relatedto making mustard. No, it's actually... I don't know for real. I don't know the depths of that question. No, but I...

So the live event space, I work, I spend moreof my time on cinema and the value chain of cinema than I do live events. But like I said in the intro, we serve liveevent venues as well.

And so I still spend some time or some ofmy time in that space. And obviously there's like a massive powerconcentration on the ticketing site, live events. It's a fact with Ticketmaster. But at the same time, Ticketmaster is oneof the companies that have actually been actively experimenting with this technology.

I guess not with NFT tickets directly, butwith like... creating NFT attachments to tickets, for instance. So I think on the Solana blockchain network,I think Ticketmaster is the one that's minted the most NFTs, for instance.

And they did an interesting experiment witha benched sevenfold, I think they had a fan club with NFT membership cards. And so they did an on sale with Tekken Masterthat was NFT gated. So you needed to prove that you had, werein possession of the NFT membership card and so on.

So. maybe less like I won't say like whether ornot power concentration is at play with regards to how fast this technology is being adoptedin the space but I think like a player like taken must for having as much power as theydo they naturally you will be able to also you know direct how and how fast andand what innovation in the space looks like.

Mm. I'll ask you one last question, Martin, andthere's a lot of innovators and entrepreneurs listening to this podcast. And one of the things that I'm interestedin is understanding the dynamic for them. The ticketing industry is an industry witha lot of power concentration and the adaptation of new technology tends to make space fornew businesses.

Who do you believe will be out on top? this? Is it new businesses? Is it old businesses adapting from amore like, it's quite a capitalistic leveling the playing field? What do you see will happenin the future? It's a question that I actually spend quitea bit of time with, pretty broadly.

To me, it's the question of who benefits mostfrom the... technology unlocks of blockchains, for instance. That said, existing companies that integratethe technology or can new ventures be built natively and leverage the capabilities ofthe technology in a better way?

And I don't think it's a one size fits allanswer to it. I think there are... like a lot of value for say like a big entertainment company like Disney to leverage this technology. In fact, I spent the. an unreasonable amount of time digging througha bunch of patent applications that Destiny applied for relating to NFT technology.

I actually wrote a piece on breaking downsome of the most interesting findings and trying to like, fed it into the ecosystemof Destiny and unearthing some things that I find really interesting and think can bevaluable. At the same time, I there's like a lot of really interesting stuffthat's being built, that's like native to blockchain technology, but also to the, whatI refer to as on -chain culture.

And you can't really understand on -chainculture unless you like, so. immerse yourself in it, so to speak, spendtime with people and spend time in those corners of the internet. But like on the music side, for instance,I think there are like new streaming platforms being built where you can collect music asNFTs and where the revenue gets streamed to the artists.

And then there are other people building fanclub technology and all of this is like, it happens in this tiny corner of the internetwhere everybody sort of like just don't give a fuck. about what's going on in the rest of the world. But I think those things will expand and growas more consumers come on chain.

There's a really interesting adaption there. So I think if I were to start a new companytomorrow in this space. I think I would like 100 % just build a on-chain native product for on -chain culture and taking the gamble that the same way thatinternet culture started as like a niche thing then became massive and then just became embeddedin like broad.

I think the same thing is going to happenhere so that we can build something for what is like a very niche market right now andthe market is going to expand significantly in the next decade. There's so many things to take away from thistalk, Martin. I'm going to go back to my team with whatI do and I'm going to show them this podcast.

I've actually had multiple like small ideasand revelations and understandings fall into place hearing you talk. Because, you know, speaking to a person aboutthis where we both have a good understanding of this space unlocks new conversations. Good. Martin, thank you so much for being on theSound Connections podcast.

I wish you all the best with DX and have agreat day. Thanks for having me. Bye.