Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI) in the Music Industry

I would love to see someone step in and be like, we're gonna take a chance on this. We're gonna try and launch a South Asian artist and make them global. We're gonna back it and put our money behind it. And, you know, working with some organizations that are thankfully starting to sort of come along that way. But that to me, certainly for my agenda, would be really showing that we're trying to do things differently. During this interview, I will step up and not know what to ask for the first time.

It's because it's talking about something I sadly don't know a lot about. It's DEI. And Sonia is one of the best people to speak to about this. I learn a lot. I hope you will as well. I hope the music industry will. Hey guys and welcome back to Sound Connections Podcast. Today we're going to talk about something interesting. Something I don't know a lot about. It's about DEI. DEI with Sonia Haak. Thank you for being here and welcome.

Thank you, Jake. Really excited to be here with you. Today's going to be a partnership episode with Survive, which is a conference happening in south of Norway, where you're also going to be. And in this partnership, I talked with the owners who should I talk about and with, and they mentioned you. You have some really interesting opinions and research on this topic.

But before we get into it, can you just explain a tiny bit who are you? Yes, I can. I am... So I, in a nutshell, I'm someone who's very passionate about diversity and bringing cultures together and throughout my life, throughout my career, I've always sort of figured out, well, what's the best way to do it? And I was really attracted to data and evidence and hearing people's voices, which is why I went into research. And I sort of that...

came together with music because I think music shapes all of our lives and mine being South Asian, it's just always been a soundtrack to that. So I felt that music was also one space that could really bring cultures and society together, which is why I've sort of really now honed in on the music diversity side of things. But yeah, so I can explain, I've worked in research for about 12 years and About seven, eight years ago, I joined a company called AudienceNet. We are, they are one of the sort of top music research companies. I left about a year and a half ago to set up Brighter Stereotypes, which is my own brand, which is more broader, um, within diversity and, and wider things I do as well. Okay. And today we're going to talk about DEI in the music

industry. Uh, I hope we're not butchering. Is it D-E-Y-D-E-I? How do you, how do you pronounce it? It's, um, the words always change, right? This is the thing with this space. So it's D E I is diversity, equity, equity and inclusion. Yeah. Uh, but actually now here there's a trend that it's changed to EDI. So equity, diversity and inclusion. But essentially the words are diversity, equity and inclusion. And we can talk about what those mean, but the acronym kind of changes a little every once in a while. So yeah, completely make sense as to why.

There's some uncertainty. Uh, but I, I know some of this topic. My brother works in the field. Um, but for people who don't know what this is, could you just briefly explain me what this is about? Yeah, sure. So it's basically about, um, I suppose diversity, equity and inclusion. This whole space is very much often looking at the workplace. How do we make industries and workplaces more diverse, so get a broader range of individuals within them. In each country that's kind of different. If you look at the marginalised groups here in the UK, for example, or those that have less opportunities, it'll be different to

where you're based, for example, perhaps. Or if you look at a place like India, it's slightly different across. So it's sort of looking at which groups don't have as much access and opportunities in society, they're being held back. Let's actively now work to... improve access and improve opportunities. Um, and then in music it's, you know, along with being within the workplace, it's also then trying to look at impact on society so it can broaden out. So like with music, we can look at how does music shape culture and what impact does it have on women or, you know, racial and ethnic minorities. So it's quite all encompassing. We can touch upon all of those areas. So before we.

dive deeper into it. Can you tell me about what's the status of this in the music industry? So it's always been something that industries have looked at and DEI is one of those things that there are always waves. There's like a positive shift and a positive trend and then you kind of get roadblocks. It's been like this since like, I suppose the 1940s, 1950s was when it was sort of starting race relations and gender equality and stuff. So it just does go in waves.

For the industry and where we're at, obviously 2020 happened. You had the unfortunate murder of George Floyd and that really made the world, to be honest, look and see what it was doing in terms of diversity. Music being an industry that in some ways has a disproportionately, from the outward lens, Lee diverse, you know, kind of...

look to it, I guess, in terms of the artists, you've got a high proportion of black artists sometimes, so it looks like it's very diverse. But when you have started to do the work, when the industry started to do the work, we've started to uncover the fact that actually there are lots of barriers and there are lots of challenges, that it might look diverse, but it's actually not necessarily throughout. And even that diversity is a little bit problematic in some ways as well. So yeah, something we've been looking at since 2020 in more depth.

Is this something the music industry talks a lot about? Well, since 2020, everyone has been having to speak a lot more openly. Um, there have been lots of different pieces of research. So I don't know if you follow the Annenberg Institute, but they're based in the States and they look a lot at diversity, uh, within the entertainment industry. So they did a report on music and found that actually while you've got about, let's say, 40% approximately of artists are black, the people profiting from that music are not. So you've got like very small proportions of people in senior positions in music roles are black. Or,

you know, so it's not necessarily fair throughout the whole industry and it's not necessarily impacting society. So yeah, there's a lot that's happened then to uncover where we're at. So there is more being done now. Let's say you had an industry with being much better at this. What were the positive aspects? What would we see being different than right now in the industry? Yeah, it's a good question. I think, I guess, like we said, that fair representation within organizations as well that are really benefiting from a certain thing. So.

certain music cultures, you would see that reflected within organizations. So more diversity within their boards and their employees. Um, you'd see it reflected throughout. Uh, I suppose there's research here that's been done by Black Lives and Music, an organization that I do quite a lot of work with that shows that nine in 10 black music creators feel they feel they face additional barriers to their progression. So you're seeing that actually people aren't being treated fairly.

So it's a general respect uplift, demonstrating value and just better reflecting society. Where does that come from? Because as you said, it might seem from the outside because of the artists that there is a lot of diversity and inclusion, but the infrastructure behind it doesn't allow for that. What is it in the structures historically that is made that way?

Yeah, it's a good question. I think I talk a lot about South Asian artists, for example, but also with diverse communities, particularly marginalised groups, there are certain job roles and opportunities that are just not easy for them to access because they might not know anyone in those roles. They might not have the financial capabilities or wealth to be able to take the risk to go into those roles.

South Asian communities, there's kind of like this well-known sort of stereotype almost, which is like, oh no, you have to be a doctor or a lawyer and such and such. But if you break that down, it's because often people came as migrant communities and they didn't want their children to take on the additional risk of going into a field where they might not be able to make money, they might face discrimination, etc. So that's why there are, you know, not just, that's not the only reason, but that's one reason why you might not see a lot of people.

go into those industries, then they're also not supported because you don't have anyone saying, hey, we're trying to become more diverse. Let's go and reach out and try and make this industry more attractive for people. So you sort of see that whole thing continue. You also then have, so in the case of women, you don't have an equal proportion of women in senior roles in music, but you actually see in the entry level roles you do.

But so what's happening there is there's a drop off. They're coming in, but they're not being supported, you know, to go up the realms. So that's something that, you know, a lot of people been talking about, or music's a, you know, men's club, et cetera, et cetera. So you've got to look throughout the pipeline of getting people in and then helping them progress as well. So that's kind of why it continues. It's something I recognize.

It's something I see. I'm from Denmark and you know, I've been in the gatherings of music industry people where you would see very, very few women, very, very few of color. And it would primarily be men looking like me 30 years older. And that's obviously changing. And, but I do, I do recognize there's a huge loss in that. I did in perspective and the way that we think and who we represent.

Where are we moving towards? Like is there actively happening a lot in the industry that's with it towards this is, this is getting better? So yeah, I, again, I've worked in this space for so long that the good thing for me is that I've seen it shift. I've seen from the start where you try to be like, Hey, we should do this because it's a good thing to do. And that's just not, not just music. It's our industry is like makeup and other stuff. And if you look at makeup and if you look at what Rihanna's done with Fenty.

It just really shows the commercial opportunity. So I think now, like back in 2015, when I first joined Audiencet, David Lewis who runs it was very supportive of me and I was like, I wanna do more in highlighting global music and the opportunities. So we started adding it into our syndicated research and I was showing, oh look, people are increasingly looking at music, listening to music in a different language or interested in music from different cultures.

Thankfully, since then, around 2015, we're seeing a real push because you're realizing that India is becoming one of the most important music markets and Hindi is one of the most streamed languages. This year, Sub-Sahara Africa is growing at the fastest pace of any region and over the last few years it's been the Middle East and North Africa. So the industry is starting to realize, whoa, there are opportunities.

And also to grow financially streaming is such an important part of the model. And you need more people to sign up. So you need that more markets. So finally now I think the commercial angle to music diversity is becoming increasingly attractive, which means that we are seeing more support for it, which is good. If you had the freedom to change and do things right now within this space.

What area would you attack? Well, what would you address in order to have an embeddiment? So, yeah, my agenda these days is very much around the South Asian side of music. Given India is a huge market, and it's just something that now, by the grace of God, having worked in this for quite a while and built some relationships of I feel like I can bring my worlds together. So I also help run a South Asian dance company here in the UK. And what strikes me is that while South Asians in the UK are approximately 9% of the population, just 6% work in the music industry. So very much underrepresented. I can't think of a

South Asian artist from the UK who's, you know, in the mainstream industry, they're on like, they're in South Asian music scenes and they're very prominent there, but it's very much ignored. under supported, under nurtured, under funded by the main industry. And I, I don't get it because music is also a, your own cultural thing. And that's like a policy agenda, policy initiative too. So I'm really trying to get people to realize why are South Asian musicians ignored? Why is that undervalued and underserved? Can we do something like, it would be amazing to have a South Asian artist at the Brits.

Or, you know, I see too many people get signed and then dropped. Um, and Jay Sean was how many years ago, you know, so that would be my thing of being like, can we try and as a case study address this, uh, and that I think we'd learn a lot in terms of diversity within music and then, you know, the opportunities, so that's kind of my flag that I'm flying these days. The funny thing is just a note is.

It's kind of funny, right? Because I'm a part of the industry. And I'm so informed about the industry and such a crucial thing about who is actually representing the industry. I'm so underexposed to that mindset. And it's not because I'm trying to call myself out and I'll keep this in a podcast. It is, I'm baffled about my lack of questions because I just haven't been there.

to ask those questions. So when I'm asking these questions to you right now, it's the first time I'm asking them. And you know, it might, you know, playing that I live in Scandinavia, and especially where I live in Norway, like it's very much the same people that live there, but it's no excuse for not being able to ask myself those questions. But I probably haven't been exposed to it. And I guess that's also part of the problem is, can...

Completely, I, cause I, I know especially this whole South Asian thing. I'm finding myself at conferences and speaking and, you know, people who are very influential, who, you know, know me and by the, you know, giving me the time of day because they know my work, they know my research work and now I'm slanting it. They, they too are like, yeah, this is odd. Like how come, especially the South Asian side of things, it's like, why haven't we thought of this before? There are lots of I think this is why I love research so much because we just kind of don't know.

I think there are assumptions that are like, oh well Asian people either don't, they listen to the same music or they're fine over there in their corner doing their thing. They don't want, there's just so much that's unsaid and unknown, which is why for me bringing data into it and showing people is starting to, I think, intrigue people a little bit more. And like you said, like get them to sort of think and ask questions because Yeah, we're not, we're not exposed to that. We've never really had to before. So, um, I don't think it's just you at all. No, and it really bad for me. And that's why I'm going to keep my, my very slow question asking right before. It's just because I'm never in a position where I don't really know what to ask because I just, I don't come from

a position of being informed of this. Yeah. And it's a part of the problem. But what can we do? Like how can we tackle this? Is it the written media that all should come out more? Like if you have some practical examples of what could we do as an industry to make people more aware to make an embeddiment in the representation of the listener? Yeah, I think listeners' voices are so, so critical. I've been writing a lot over the last year or so with Chuck Metric and others on South Asian artists. And I...

have integrated some quotes or other stuff. And you know, like people are saying, even me, like years ago, growing up, it wasn't cool to outwardly say you listen to Asian music, even to Asian people. You sort of had to hide it. Now things are globalizing and you know, like Diljit Dasan, Gisette Coachella. So you're sort of with more confidence, able to embrace your culture, embrace that and feel more accepted in society. So I feel like.

the more we can actually bring those listener stories to light, which is what I'm now hoping to do soon through like a piece specifically on South Asian music listeners, I think we can start to intrigue people because I see it. I've seen it in like industry meetings where they're like, Whoa, UAE and Saudi Arabia, like Saudi Arabia is now one of the most interesting music markets. Even though a few years ago, you know, we didn't even know much about music consumption there, or it's really changed at the start. So.

I think it's coming, like you've said, from a place of intrigue and opportunity. Like K-pop has just taken over the world. I find K-pop so fascinating and how it's so widely consumed. If we can learn from that, we can kind of then see how to replicate that because I'm going on a bit, but I just think music, and I've studied this, music brings cultures together, like it shows us it doesn't have language.

borders or barriers that you can consume Latin music and other things and it has that same excitement so I just see massive opportunities for music, bringing cultures together if we do it right. Talking about opportunities, because now we're going back on track on things that do know something about it, which is still relevant to this. You have explained multiple times that there are markets that are growing and there are cultures that are getting more and more represented towards the listeners. And obviously it's not the demographics of the world that's changing, it's the representation within music. Completely.

Can you explain to me, what do you believe are the opportunities for entrepreneurs? in recognizing the development of this within music? So, yeah, so I think, sorry, just one second, I think that streaming platforms have done an amazing thing because like you've, I mean, that was the nail on the head. The world's demographics, the world's music consumption is not changing. It's just that we're starting to see it because you can see it on streaming platforms. You can see week on week pretty much in YouTube music. Some of the top songs are...

Indian songs, like the most streamed songs, the biggest YouTube channel is or was T-Series. You're starting to realise, wow, there's this whole other world of music opportunity out there. So I think the streaming platforms are very much leaning into it. You see a huge focus on like, let's say Spotify India or what they're doing in Pakistan or globally. So I think that's great and very exciting. They're really engaging.

a lot of diverse listeners. I think the platforms are one. And then obviously the thing with music is it's not as easy to, I guess, monetize in some ways because streaming platforms cost slightly different in different markets. So there is that element, but I think for let's a high-spending or like relatively high-spending that you can activate and you see it year-on-year like month-on-month Diljit Dasanjh coming here or Arijit Singh coming here and selling out our

biggest stadiums like the O2 for multiple nights, there's a massive opportunity and export opportunity for artists. So, you know, whether it's you're wanting to... I don't know, create, you know, do more touring, or if you want to try and activate those fans here, I feel like that's a really cool opportunity because currently it's just social media. But if there's some sort of fan engagement platform that can foster those relationships, that could be quite interesting too. Yeah. Yeah, so basically it's underrepresented fans that are looking towards spending their money and their impeachment on things to resonate with and from their own culture.

This is sort of what we're building towards and there's probably a lot of opportunities in entrepreneurship to help do that because it's a way of building business, building finance around this and also addressing that unrepresented need to consume from your own culture or other cultures you're curious about. That makes a lot of sense.

Definitely because music is about, you know, it's about identity. It's, it's... And a few years ago in this space, we weren't actually sure how it was going to go. We didn't know if, you know, diasporas growing up here would be engaging with music from their countries of origin or if it would just kind of be a done thing. Now we're seeing young people, like I mentioned my dance company, we're seeing like the youth coming in, like they're just going to like dance classes at a rate that's just unheard of. They're so engaged in the music and like...

TikTok and other stuff and it's really, really exciting to see, which is why I feel like music could really make the most of that opportunity because it's hugely exciting and there is money there. So, continue for the people that are going to the conference of Survive. Tell us a bit about what you're going to talk about at the conference because they're partnering this episode. Yeah. So, I was really honored that Survive asked me to do the opening keynote. It means a lot to me, I think, especially who I am as well from a cultural background. It's not lost on me that these opportunities are rare, so it's super exciting.

I will be, being someone who's in research, it will be very much like kind of trends based. We'll be looking at the trends in music right now, what's going on, a lot of focus on global music markets and their growth. And we'll also be looking at other equity elements such as, yes, creating more diversity within the industry or how do we pay artists more fairly? That's a whole other thing, but you know, or artists' wellbeing, we'll be touching upon those elements. But definitely my...

My thing will be highlighting a lot about the rise of global music markets and the sort of opportunities there and why we need to focus on that. I think everyone who listens to this episode should go to Survive. It's a really interesting music tech conference that are developing. I was there last year and I was just blown away by the quality of speakers and you being a keynote is going to speak to that.

But it's also it's a great meeting place to meet like-minded people and for entrepreneurs to understand the industry and for the music industry to understand new technology. Sonia, before we close this episode, I want to understand what's your future vision for the music industry? What do you see happening that would make this a better place?

I think firstly we are around the whole diversity side of things. There are some murky things, like we've mentioned stuff I'm looking into with different organisations, but there are themes around bullying and harassment, the impact of music culture on society. I mentioned misogyny, I mentioned other impacts on culture, which are the darker side of things which I think the industry very much needs to start addressing.

I would love to see more data and research around that. Like one thing being how young people these days are self-policing. I've seen this with music lyrics or other things. So I think it's important for us as an industry, ethically, to look into some of that stuff. Um, from the opportunity side, like I said, and actually you've inspired me because if there are entrepreneurs out there that are like, Hey, actually, yeah, we can jump in and we could do something and show the value of South Asian artists or the support I've had from organisations like, let's say, Chartmetric. I would love to see someone step in and be like, we're going to take a chance on this. We're going to try and launch a South Asian artist and make them global. We're going to back it and put our money behind it. And,

you know, working with some organisations that are thankfully starting to sort of come along that way. But that to me, certainly for my agenda, would be really showing... that we're trying to do things differently because it's just one area that has been so ignored I feel that we have to take a stronger stance towards changing that. And that to me will signify real sort of attempts to make change. And that's the beautiful combination of entrepreneurship and meaningfulness in culture. And what we do with music is basically resonating.

with listeners. It's about telling stories that people can relate to, they can find comfort in, they can find hope, or they can find a place where it sort of matches their emotions, and that is important. And if we don't have enough diversity in the industry or through artists, we're not doing a good enough job to actually meet the listeners where they could and should be met. Totally, and again, being in research, I'm very much like listener-led.

often only would have your own ideas and research. You're just relaying what other people are saying, or you're getting those things out of people. And I very much believe in that, like people first. Do we understand diverse music listeners? Do we understand the role that music plays in their lives and their culture? And I don't think we do. And so that's very much my agenda is highlighting soon launching something which will look at South Asian music listeners and how they navigate this living here in, you know, but also then being connected to their country of origin, but also then consuming Beyonce or Drake, but equally listening to Lata Mangeshka or Diljit

Dasanj. And I just think it's so fascinating that I, yeah, for me that would be, I'm keen to highlight that soon. This episode for me has been how I think a lot of people have it, especially in my territory, of course we talk about this, but I honestly don't hear a lot in the music industry and that is, you know, from the starting of the episode, not knowing if it's DIY or I, that's the level. And obviously I know more from some sort of level. But also when I sort of, when we end this episode in a few minutes, I feel more informed,

but I still feel like I know so little. And I think it's a good representation of... the general movements of what we're going into now. Definitely. I think there's so much to learn about this space. And like we said, there are specialists that are working on particular things. So I mentioned Black Lives and Music, or there are other organizations that are taking a topic and they're like, right, we're going to address that specifically. And I think that's, that's what you need right now is no one person has got all of the answers about everything. Like I said, I've got a good general understanding of the, you know, area as a specialist, that's my role, but I have a depth of understanding within South Asian music and the agenda there or artists. So I think we need everyone to

kind of collectively come together. And I think it's a difficult space. It's very emotive. A lot of it's about justice and what's right in society, but that can feel weighty and scary. And I think sometimes you just need to feel hopeful and excited and you need entrepreneurs to be like, right, we're going to solve this. Like I mentioned, do a Rihanna, create a Fenty Beauty and just show the world the opportunity with diverse consumers. So yeah, I appreciate this discussion as well. It's been really nice to sort of unpack it.

That was a great place to end the episode. Thank you so much, Sania. I'm looking so much forward to see you in a few weeks at Sørveiv Conference. I'm very excited to be there, and I hope all the listeners is gonna take a plane trip and buy a ticket to be at the conference. If not, they're gonna miss out speaking with you as I've done today. Thank you so much for your time. No, thank you, Jacob. It's been lovely.