Collaborative Models in the Music Industry

And let's not forget, we are replacing infrastructure in the music industry that was designed first by publishers who published sheet music before 1900. And then some fucking gangsters in New York in the 50s and 60s. And we are still living under that rule. When you have investors, you need to have some sort of exit in mind. And most of the cases you get acquired by a bigger company. But maybe there's a different way of building companies with that intent. Maybe it's through collaboration. And that's what we're going to talk about today with Poul Portelon. How you can collaborate, become a successful company in the music industry. Hey guys, and welcome back to Sound Connections. Today we

have an interesting one with Poul Portelon. Welcome, Poul. Thank you so much for having me. This is an episode we're doing with partnership with Survive Conference and Festival, where you're also part of the board. And we actually had talk around a month ago and you really interest me because you are a person who has some very clear opinions about the music tech landscape. And we're going to talk about those opinions today. But Paul, before I go into what we're going to talk about today, could you just tell me a tiny bit about yourself? Yeah. I mean, you don't see my full studio in the background here, but I am actually.

come from music and I have a live in a parallel universe between online media and entrepreneurship since the beginning of this millennium. Really working for Shipstead for many years with a lot of product development inside of the gear. And then ultimately some of these things led to WIMP where I wasn't actually part of the initial team. I was part of the pre -project.

And then I came in at the later stage when we tried to accelerate WIMP and we created WIMP HiFi and then later rebranded to Tidal, which was sold out. And then, and then since I've been building a web platform for running large scale events for OBSLOW Spectrum, Nova Spectrum.

And since then, just at the brink of the pandemic, I started working remote with some old pals, a very nerdy media player called Rune, extremely metadata heavy and the hi -fi connection oriented. And then after that, I have been working a lot with small startups, advising and helping.

doing my best to offer something, including companies like the very brilliant Master Channel AI and some others. And since October, I took over the leadership at Music DNA, which is an old music tech company here in Norway. And the founder sadly died. So it's a new situation to take over a company where something like this happened.

And also, yeah, trying to bring new energy to the company, new investors and new take on the product itself, developing it into the next era of the company. That's where I'm basically right now. Yeah. And it's really interesting with your profile very deeply in music, music tech, but also from other commercial arenas.

that probably gives you perspective that some music entrepreneurs and CEOs don't have. We're going to talk about something interesting today. And normally when I invite a guest, I have a very clear agenda, but I kind of just text to you, hey, what do you think you want to talk about? And he gave me this long text that was super, super interesting. And I'll try to go through it, you know, throughout the conversation, I won't actually read it. And I tried to give it some sort of title and I call it the collaborative models in the music industry. It doesn't say that much, but it's the best I could.

to talk about some specific things that they pull up because you have some really cool opinions about some stuff. But first, let's just talk a bit about the state of collaboration in music. Can you give some perspectives of what you're seeing happening out there? I think it resulted in a text message to you, but it's something that's been brewing nearly all the time since I left Tidal really, back in 2017. Is that when, especially if you're not in the States or you're not in UK, you're in a small place like Norway. You turn around, you look around and you see like, where should I work next? And there aren't many options.

unless you want to relocate to somewhere else. So ever since I've been on the hunt of finding these small companies and projects and see how they fit together and not in the scope of trying to collapse them or merge and acquire and things like this, but how can we get companies to collaborate? So this is a topic that really engaged me.

figuring out how, because it's so easy when you look at the marketplace in general, like you have the major labels, they are also investors in this space. And then everyone's on the hunt for like a big roll up of things. It's like it needs to escalate, but there are also these extremely interesting layer of companies that started because they wanted to fix one thing or 10 things in the music industry.

Like we are going to fix metadata or are we going to fix this audio pipeline thing or are we going to fix something? We're going to fix. There aren't any good tools to run small festivals. Like, okay, let's make it. Or it was like, you have some examples here in this country. It's like, yeah, we stood the whole festival pretending to scan tickets because Ticketmaster didn't work.

And then the day after we started making our own ticket system. So you have these stories. traditional innovation stories where people are doing it out of a need or a desire to fix something. And then traditionally you end up having a small amount of success and you find some customers and you're happy and you're starting to grow. And then it's sort of the innovation stops and the growth stops. And the only way to get past it is really like large scale injection of money to do some big grand scale ideas or to start partnering with people. And it's in this landscape of partnering that...

You see top -down initiatives like Utopia trying to aggregate some of these markets that they work. You see a little bit of the same thing happening around some trader, albeit I think probably a little bit more success because of the thinking behind how that's put together and some other initiatives around solve and pop -outs.

There's enough attempts to drive this top -down. Still though, there is a... big need for people to collaborate and partner. And typically we, in the old days, people would go to meet them and get drunk. Now they're going to slush to get drunk or to Austin to get drunk, I think. But, but still, yeah. So, so there, there's, there's big opportunity for innovation in this middle layer, I think. Without having, without having someone.

by everyone to make them work together. So this is what led me to text this message to you and saying, this is something I would really talk about because I am also part of an initiative that looking at methods for collaborating. Like let's say, take MusicDN as an example. I already have business with this company. I don't want to interfere in that business where I...

only seven, eight people. I don't want to, we need to focus on selling and selling and selling our product. Still, it goes on the cost of innovation because we would also really like to focus on collaborating and finding other products based on our data. So, I'm discussing a lot with a fine gentleman called Dan Archer who leads Copyright Delta in Amsterdam and a couple of companies here. Like what are the mechanisms? So I could put all my data or all my patents or everything I do on the sharing table

and still run my business over here. Not jeopardize any of that, but ... We have a sharing table where if you want to combine my data with lyrics or my data with ISWC codes or my data with some other technology out there. And if you're using my data, I need to get paid for that usage. So this is what we're trying to poke at.

An experiment with and I've been avoiding blockchain and web three technologies. simply because of the crypto casino and NFT bullshit that was going on. We always knew the underlying technology and the toolbox is super interesting, but it's just been a lot of hoo -ha for five years. Now it's starting to emerge again. It's like real usage, real infrastructure usage of these technologies. So if I could take my data, tokenize my data.

And if you decided to use it, it says inside that I want 2 % of whatever you're making. And it starts to get interesting. So I'm really eager to find out how technology can build enough trust for me to share my product without knowing exactly what I'm going to get out of it. Yeah.

This is, this is some really interesting thoughts and we need to deep dive into it. And there's a lot of things to take away, you know, take about, you know, blockchain copyright deltas is extremely in taking the case. I know Dan as well, but, but before we do that, let's just go a bit back to the M &A approach or, you know, cash injection. Let's, let's say the utopia model is a well -known thing that, you know, had its rise, maybe had its fall, maybe it's stabilizing. We don't know it, but, but can you just explain a bit more about.

What happens in a utopia or some traitor example? What is actually happening? And what do you believe are the effects of that? I can say what I think they wanted to happen. I can say what I think happened. Utopia is an interesting case. I think they came in with the finest of intentions to build something that is actually new infrastructure. And I also think that they probably wanted to cash out of a big volume royalty game.

Of course. And that's okay. I think it was a mixed bag of signals because we also heard that they were ramping up, big style, hiring any person that could code and was interested in music. I'm being very unfair now, but this is what the impression was. And then I think maybe the result that it ended up in is that...

Their deal flow suddenly ended up being a lot of companies that... Not necessarily all of them stood on their own feet. I mean, people were looking to cash out from semi -good companies. And a lot of, I'm not saying that they did acquire all of this, but a lot of their attention got ended up there, I think. So, and yeah, a lot of people who wasn't necessarily the...

interesting ingredients in the big new infrastructure machine ended up chasing them to be bought and to get out of their little ventures instead of... And yeah, so I think that's what song traders are doing differently is that they already have a lot of the most important components of these ingredients. So who's going to be next? What they are missing is...

calculating machines to use all that data to help royalty payments really. Can you explain a bit practically what you see is happening? For example, let's go to Strong Trade if you haven't talked about them. They have a business where they have something and then they buy other things in order to make something else.

Can you go a bit more in practical detail into what is happening there? Well, first of all, I'm not running it, so I don't necessarily know in detail what they do on a day -to -day basis, but I of course know some of the objects that these people are talking to and I have good friends there. So, it seems that what they have acquired are a lot clearer components that if you put them together, you actually can have, I mean, they have the music.

through 7digital, they have JAXTA and they have Vamper. So they have the social aspect of collaborating over music. They have the music itself and they serve white label to someone through 7digital. They have licensing. And then of course in JAXTA, they have all the track label copy, all the metadata for every track. So I mean, they are clearly more in a direction of being able to...

succeed with the top down approach in my opinion. Because they have hoarded the right ingredients. Yeah, by the looks. And for a lot of the entrepreneurs that listen to this podcast, there often is some sort of exit in mind, not that's the biggest motivation, but of course, if you want to onboard investors at one point, that needs to be some sort of way to realize that value. So these companies are, of course, things people look to as a potential way of, we could be bought by them at one point.

So that has its, let's call it its benefits for entrepreneurs, but there's also about just - getting to a place where you have an actual company that could be valuable one day. And that is, you know, there's multiple ways of doing it. And if you started the episode, you talked about cash injection or collaboration could be two different parts. So let's go a bit that direction. Okay. We've talked about cash injection. We haven't talked that much about investment, but a lot of the other episodes do that. But, but what, what do you mean about collaboration as an alternative to pursue being purchased by these companies?

What does collaboration mean for you for small companies that's trying to make an impact? I think it's a starting point. Let's do an example. Just, yep. So people are used to, if there is a transaction, there is also a transaction cost, like a Vsauce, like a Stripe kind of thing. So if I could go to Toolknot in Norway and say, well, I can use employing...

various amounts of technology, I can find you 15 % more royalties out in the market. Neighborhood rights things, I can detect them, I can find them and I can bring them home to your members. And they would say, oh, that's interesting. That's quite a lot of money. That's fine. If I succeed in doing that, there is a transaction fee of 10 % just for the sake of it.

And then, and then I don't necessarily have the machine to do all of it within my company, but I need to find partners to do so. And if, and if we manage to, to put this together, so I need, I'm going to need ISW SQLs, ISRC SQLs, I'm going to need radio detection data, some streaming data. I'm going to need some metadata to put onto this.

Okay. JAXDA has metadata or music story in France. I can find someone who has some of the other data. I certainly have radio detection data, chart metric has streaming data or somebody else. If we can take what we own or have, put it on the table and say, well, out of those 10%, if my data is used, I want one of these, like I want.

20 % out of that 10%. And I'm going to do that by tokenizing my data and putting that instruction inside. If it's been used for this, then I want 20 % of the fee. So this is what I'm thinking about, like a collaboration model, which is clearly technological and can put trust where there isn't.

necessarily enough trust to do it in other ways. Of course, I could always tone Sean Luke at Music Story and do a license deal for his metadata. And then I could go somewhere else and license some other data and put this together. They would be very nervous if I steal their business. And yeah, and the problem is ending up, I'm not going to be bothered doing that. I'm going to...

We're going to wait then for some big entity to come and just solve all these uncollected money. Yeah. Okay. So instead of like a utopia of buying all the components of the machine, we are the components that we put this, we do a radical collaboration saying like, let's fix this together. And if we can't trust each other, well then let the technology build that trust. That's my thinking.

I feel like a real blockchain evangelist, which I haven't been, I've never been that until in the last couple of months. Yeah. Until you talk too much with Dan, I guess. Yeah. Okay, well, this is interesting. It's actually the first time I hear this. Weirdly enough, I might be just not informed, but...

I think we're kind of stuck in this top -down approach, and this is why this talk is so important today. Because I think most entrepreneurs also think this way, top -down. And we have something that we create some worth in order to be bought to be put into a bigger system. That's normally how it works. Especially the music industry, where building a large company encompassing many functions is almost impossible. There's very few players out there that has that capacity.

I'm not going to mention a number because I don't know, but I'm going to shoot it's less than 10 out there that really has all these components. So having any chance of building that kind of companies probably really, really almost impossibly low. And also those 10 will be so big that we consider them evil or too powerful. Yeah. Right. Especially in this space. Yeah. We're talking entrepreneurial things, but it is the music industry.

So it is a network of networks of people that know each other and just want to make some music. And I was actually surprised by how broken the infrastructure of the music industry is. I came into it with, maybe because I had seen a database in my life, I came in with the notion that the data here represents exactly what happened and people will get paid.

And the complete opposite is true. It's such an utter mess. But it's in movement and that's interesting. It's in movement and organizations and companies are willing to listen to entrepreneurs because everyone's looking for a better infrastructure to the space. And it's also interesting at time to talk about this because every time you mention AI and music, people are thinking generative.

AI. And I think it's in the infrastructure part and royalty, uh, calculation and payouts where the real interesting things are happening. So it's, it's in the, it's in the boring end of the market, uh, where the real innovation needs to happen and it's about to happen. Yeah. This is.

This is very interesting. I want to deep dive a bit more because I also have a company that I've helped build that's working with blockchain. And we obviously also see the benefits of collaboration and transferring of data points to benefit other industries with other products. But I was having a conversation with a client actually just yesterday. I won't mention them by name who's working on something. And we talked about being this middleman function, this connecting function. And the founder's response was like, can we, I can't really imagine that being a product. And then we're like, okay, but, but what kind of big example do we have right now that works like this? You know,

like Sapir. Great. That's a pretty amazing product. I used this example yesterday. Sapir is a good example. Okay. We both thought it yesterday. And, and I think there's some unexplored territory about that. And it really speaks to your point. Like not top down, but collaborative. My question to you is where lies the business do you think?

Is it from these separate independent entities taking their own initiatives or is there some sort of middleman that should be the initiative taker in order to combine these companies? So like there's a business about connecting businesses or is it the most effective that it's each individual business to try to do partnerships with others? Yeah.

I had this very conversation yesterday because Zapier is a good example of someone in the middle layer. We're not talking about connecting SAP to some Microsoft gigantic package. We're talking about connecting WordPress to some other service that level, which is like, it's big, but it's cheap or free or open source. So someone took on the role of the brokering APIs between That level is like, where's the money in that? If I were the first investment case of that, I think I would be skeptical of where they could generate revenue. And it turns out

it's valuable enough for many enough to connect WordPress to Airhub or something, or to Airtables, right? Yeah, some people are willing to pay like $14 or whatever. And there's enough of us out there trying to fix something. to pay for this. And then if you're looking at collaborating on top of this, personally, I think someone needs to drive the actual engine around it. So there are a couple of initiatives on this, Copyright Delta being one of them. And we can use them

as an example. This is the one I know the best, but obviously Song Trader has their own little engine sauce going on with all the companies that they have and there are others. But you need some mechanisms so we don't have to build everything all the time. So if I could place my all the radio data app, 10 years of radio logging, 32 ,000 radio channels all over the world. Lots of interesting data. If I could place this on the table and say, well, You make some royalty calculation service out of this. I'm fine with it, but you pay me. I'm not giving, I'm not a charity, right? None of these companies

are small charities. So it's about getting paid to survive day by day. So I think it's probably some stations of aggregations that needs to be run by people. And... And that's a business case on its own.

for Dan and his copyright Delta or for someone else who wants to be the Rosetta stone of data. They also will obviously want to get paid for their effort to combine these sources. But I think it's a good vehicle for innovation. It's that you lower the effort to put the data together and it's like a Zapier. A lot of ready -made things.

Like I'm interested in combining audio fingerprints with lyrics. Okay, fine. What's the combinator? Yeah, I have an idea on my side. There's an idea for this song in lyric fine as an example. And then yeah, let's combine the two.

What is the common identifier? It's ISRC or ISWC or some other code. And then yeah. then you can do tremendous things with these things. The typical work model would be go to me and source the fingerprints and go to Lerifine and source the fingerprints by way of license and it's long and tedious and we'd be skeptical and we'd be writing long hard contracts to do it. And you say the tokenization on blockchain of this data.

is probably the most practical key to making this possible. Could be. Could be. search me for parts of it. Going back to the trust element of making sure that you have insight in how your data or your product is being used or combined with others. I think it's a good starting point for a conversation. My turn now that it's easier to do it by way of database and logging and things like this. But I think we should be practical about that part as well. It's again, it's blockchain just a...

tool in the toolbox, it's where I'm saying it. You can't say that then get to invest your money anymore. So it doesn't make sense. Like it's not a buzzword like that anymore. So this is more like, yeah, tool in the toolbox. And many times I've heard it being used as, yeah, it's going to fix everything. And it was like, why don't you just do that with MySQL? And then, yeah, sorry. Yeah, sure. So, but definitely interesting.

Also the question, interesting, could we do this completely without any middleman or a broker? Then you need to look at like standardization of things and how you present yourself to the market without a middleman. But then someone needs to write that protocol and say. Yeah, no, I was just, I was just listening. So I see, but it, but it's an interesting thing.

Um, have you seen examples out in the real world that you've been able to follow that's, that's trying to do this collaborative model besides yourself? Um, I, I'm lacking really good examples from the music industry that I've seen. You need to go to the academic side of things like.

On standardization, if it was to be standardized, we need to look at mechanisms like DDEX, things like this, where actually a lot of people not trusting each other came together and defined as a standard for metadata. I think we need to look outside the music industry to find radical collaborative models like this. I'm sure we'd be easily find it in medicine because the cost of research is so high and that people are sharing a lot of data and insights to drive innovation. So that's,

yeah, it's a good question again, because now I'm curious to find other good examples. that we can nerd. Yeah, but I think that the most important thing is sparking the curiosity and thinking about if there's different ways of building business because it does also feel sometimes very far -fetched that I need to do everything on my own as an entrepreneur and maybe I'm going to be big enough to have an exit instead of like, how can you practically have a collaboration that can bring work worth to more of us? Because I think most entrepreneurs in the music industry, are or at least should be interested in the betterment of the industry. And there must be

better ways than just building product by product and not thinking synergies in what we do. Sorry, but it just came to mind also is like, it doesn't have to be a lot of combination either. It can be, you have a product and you just expose yourself.

to partnerships and what came to mind and this is from Master Channel and I'm not going to take any kudos for this because this brilliance happened after I left, but they really, really focused on partnerships for some time and still doing. How can we make it utterly simple for, let's say a distributor or anyone else to combine their product with ours?

Like how can Amuse get our product inside their product in the easiest possible way? Like, yeah, it's a line of code. So I know Simon was working very hard to like, let's make this a line of code. And then you can simply like in the aggregation of music face to Amuse, just call this API, get the song mastered and get the song back. Like that is such a...

simplistic collaboration model that like, but this is one to one again. So this is still like the typical relationship when someone agreeing to work together. But I think it's at the level where it should be. It's like, it's a line of code and you're going, then you have mastering in your product as well. White label, master child. Brilliant. And I know for a fact that they're getting quite a lot of success with this method and way of doing things.

So I think that's also worth looking at. So we don't have to end up with this sharing table immediately, but we need to move in that direction and expose ourselves to other companies in simplest way. To make it easy to collaborate. Makes sense. We've had Christian on the podcast, I don't know, 25 episodes ago. And it's really interesting. That was right before this happened.

And I remember asking him questions like, you know, differentiation between them and Lander or whatever. Like, you know, these big companies that's been there like five years before them. And this collaborative model is definitely the differentiator. Like they're all about improving existing products and that is super smart. And they're using it to their, to their favor. And you know, if I had money, I would definitely invest it in MasterTunnel right now.

They have a very good product. It's not only the collaboration model. They also have a very good engine. So, yeah. But definitely, I think what we can learn from what they did is to make it a one line of codes to collaborate with me. Does it sound hard or easy to work with you then? And I think that's the right level you should be as like.

Lower your guard, build trust, be a nice person and have one line of code API. And then when people are more in that spirit, then definitely we are talking about it's so much easier to make some SAPier kind of for the music industry because it's to hook your data in this is already prepared and you know exactly what you want out of it. If I use your...

liner codes and get your data. I had a conversation with Mike Pielczynski a few episodes ago who was head of strategy for SoundCloud. And I had one minute in the podcast when I sort of went on my own personal rant about me being alive from the music industry, but also sort of depressed about how the industry treats the artists, the economy around the industry treats the artists in a lot of the...

And that's not just for artists, it's also for founders and music tech companies because... Being a founder is difficult in any industry, but being a founder in music tech industry has some other levels of complexity and also some other levels of reward that typically smaller. And one of the things that I'm really interested in and also doing this podcast is how can we make the chances of success better and how can we make the way of navigating this space easier to having results that are more attainable. And this example that you have now, is suggesting exactly that. Like this is difficult enough to start

with guys. What can we do to make this easier to support each other and we'll all win more in the end and not just go for that singular goal of being acquired. And I think that's interesting. And also to build on what you're saying. I mean, if you are making, if you're a local farmer and you supply your local restaurant with something, that is the.

viable business. You don't have to be necessarily a unicorn candidate every time. To be a supplier into a sound infrastructure is a super interesting space to move into. I was meeting with one guy today who is extremely good at demixing and then transcribing music into score. And we were discussing where's the market for this and where's the other one. And I had to explain to him, to him because he hadn't even thought about royalty calculation as an end station for his product. So if I can take Fingerbrids audio and match it

on radio and find ways for people to getting paid, then someone else using lyrics in Lyric Finder or Music Match to do the same. And then we combine all of these data and it's like, if we transcribe a live recording of things of a song, we can take a score and match it to a score of the recorded version in the studio, which we can't do with Fingerprint because there won't be a match because it's not the same way for it. If it's MIDI, or if it's an actual score of the original and a score of the live version, they will look more similar and you can make a probability of 70 to 100 % that this is the

same song that we're hearing and match that to an ICWC and you get paid. Like he was like... Yeah. So, so it's like, yeah, I've only been thinking about composers transcribing old songs. It's like, it's to, to park yourself as a supplier into a bigger machine, um, where you can be extremely good at one thing of transcribing music for the purpose of matching to another score. That is a super sound business, but not on your own sitting in your office somewhere. It needs to be part of a bigger beast.

And that little mechanism isn't necessarily there yet. So that's what I'm looking after. How can we get really good people, both in the academic world, who are making tons of super interesting IP. But the journey to revenue is so incredibly long.

And that's why we see, like in Norway, all the music tech companies are tiny. most of them. How many music startups in Norway have more than five people employed? Two, maybe. Yeah, there aren't many. And then you have some, you know, like title, people forget them. But they are like 100, 150 people. But in the starter world, two, three, four, five people at the most. And that could be fine. You could easily be a good ingredient supplier to something bigger. But it's not there yet. That's what I'm...

without mergers and acquisitions and without anything else, like how can we get to a place like this? That intrigues me. Sorry, rant over. I think Noah, this is good. I think of that note, like we've really covered a lot of ground in a short amount of time. And I sort of want to end the episode on an advice from your side. If you look at the entrepreneurs that are listening to this podcast and trying to explore the opportunities within this collaborative space.

What would you recommend that they would think about the most? Is there a space that you say, okay, this is right for collaboration? This is where you could pursue collaboration the most effective. Oh, that's a giant question. Sorry. Yeah. And it's also, it's going to be supervised by what I'm thinking a lot about these days. But the more like, the more doors you open in the royalty collecting space, the more you see that so many things are not right.

And if you want to make a big change in the music space, it's taking part in the race for a better infrastructure. And that can be from being extremely good at Power BI stuff to actually making basic research on how to annotate music or combine music. Like there's a, I think in a couple of months, generative music is going to sort of be less of a hot topic. I think it's going to be there. It's going to commoditize and we're going to get used to it. It's going to have troubles and success. But I think I would personally look more into how you

can contribute to get people paid. We're looking at EU directive that's going to come in the next couple of years. It's not going to be implemented. on this side of 2030 and troll, but it's literally the GDPR of royalties and credits.

So I would read that, at least the proposal for the GDPR of the music industry, understand it and then ask yourself who the hell is going to supply the tech for this? Because it literally means you get played on radio, your guitar player should get paid.

Okay. That means someone needs to have that method out there where the guitar player is. That's the easy part. Someone's going to have a relationship to the guitar player to send that person money. Not via a record company or a management or anything, a direct relationship. Okay, so that's super interesting how that's going to happen. No one in the EU has solved this yet, how it's going to be implemented, but it certainly is going to drive, it's going to be to royalties and credits.

What GDPR was for privacy. And it's been fantastic. Let's not forget how fantastic GDPR, even though we hated the implementation phase of it, it's been fantastic for privacy. And I think this new regulation is going to be fantastic for royalties and credits. But who's going to be the players delivering that?

That's going to be an interesting part. And that's the beginning of the new infrastructure. And let's not forget, we are replacing infrastructure in the music industry that was designed first by publishers who published sheet music before 1900. And then some fucking gangsters in New York in the 50s and 60s. And we are still living under that rule and the economy. And now slowly emerging.

A new infrastructure for the music industry. Let's hope it's fairer than what it is now because now it's in shambles. So I would look at that space. If I started something new now, it's really that directive. It's boring as hell, but it's a good business. Yeah. That was the first emotional ad. Oh, this is going to be boring. Goodbyes. Yeah. Well, thank you, Paul. This has been super insightful. And I think it's a really important episode we did today. We luckily now at the podcast have a lot of listeners, so if you're there, share it around. I really appreciate it. And yeah, well shout out to Survive,

Who is sort of the partner of this podcast. I'm definitely going to see you there. And I'm going to talk more. So everyone knows it. I'm going to talk more about this at Survive together with Pete Downton, Lana from NextRoll and Christian from Master Channel and Dana Archer, no other. So is dad coming? Yeah. Oh, I'm going to give him a hug. So that's great. If you think this is interesting, come and join us because that's going to be a full round table with lots of crazy ideas. Amazing. So guys, listen to the podcast, come to Surva, Christian Sand.

There's a small effort there if you want to come. It's going to be amazing. I'm going to be there. Paul is going to be there. And thank you so much, Paul, for the episode today. Thank you.