Advancing Music Ecosystems Through Policy and Data

Music itself is valued, always will be. I think we forget that. Music's not going away. It's the ecosystem and the businesses withinit that have to articulate our value in a different way.

When you work in the music industry, sometimesit's easy to forget that there's a world outside of what we work with, even within music. Shane Shapiro works with music in the contextof cities worth outside of just music. And this is an episode that really made methink. Hey, Shane. Welcome to Sound Connections Podcast.

Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. I've been curious about having a talk withyou. We've been connected for a few months andI heard a talk. from you about your new book, which is, ThisMust Be the Place How Music Can Make Your City Better. And you come up with some really interestingpoints about music and how it involves cities and all that kind of stuff, and we'll go intoit.

But can you, for the sake of me and the audience,explain a bit, who are you and what do you do? Yeah, so I'm based in London. I grew up in Canada. I founded a company called Sound Diplomacyin 2013. Sound of Homos is an economic consultancythat works with cities, governments, large organizations on culture, music, nighttimeeconomy, uh, and leisure policy and strategy, kind of similar to other big consultant companieslike the big four.

Um, within that we have an events companyas well that puts on music conferences and conferences related to music and culture calledMomentual. And then I, in 2021, founded a nonprofit calledthe Center for Music Ecosystems, which is trying to incorporate. music into how we address and solve biggerproblems in society. So I've always kind of been at the intersectionof music and something else, music in cities, music in place, music in public policy.

Um, but before that, before I founded SoundDiplomacy, I had about 15 years of working in the music industry in a variety of differentways. And I've always worked in music, uh, sinceI was a teenager. Was it like the initial love for music thatbrought you into the industry or like, where did that come from? No. Um, uh, it just happened as the best way toput it.

So I was, um, I ended up getting a job, uh,kind of at the same time, one at a local music venue in my hometown and another at a recordstore. I was always, I loved music. I wasn't really very bothered about workingin it. Um, but then the jobs came and I realized,you know, I'm, this is something I enjoy doing.

Uh, so when I was 16, I was working in a recordstore. part -time and or music venue part -time. And it kind of just went from there. And, you know, I just kept getting employedin different ways as well as studying. Yeah. And kind of, you know, other than a few oddjobs here and there, I've pretty much consistently been working in music or adjacent to musicever since.

And that career also sort of ventured intoacademia for you because besides working, that's a path you pursued. Yeah, I have a PhD in cultural policy. So, but I worked pretty much throughout whileI was studying, um, from my bachelor's straight through to my PhD. I haven't pursued academia like as a career,but having an understanding of things is important to me or trying to have as much of an understandingof things as possible.

And I was given an opportunity to do the PhD. So I did it. Um, but when I graduated, I kind of. I think the next day or a couple of days later,I founded Sound Diplomacy. So like it was, uh, cause I wasn't, I wasan immigrant, I'm an immigrant obviously in the UK. And, uh, when I was a student, I wasn't allowedto start my own company.

I was allowed to work, uh, but not start acompany. So once I graduated and I moved on to, uh,a different kind of path to citizenship, uh, I started the company. Yeah. Was it a problem you faced in your careerin academia that made you think, okay, I want to start a company surrounding something. I don't think I ever had a career in academia,I think is the first step, right?

So I was always just studying. I did some teaching. I still do. I've written some courses. I've, you know, I engage with universitiesall the time, but I don't think I ever had a career in academia. I always, I always worked in the sector inone way or another when I was studying. So it was mainly. sector first, and then I was doing academicson the side.

What was it that sparked the idea about SoundDiplomacy? Well, it evolved over time what the companyis now versus the way we started. So prior to Sound Diplomacy, I was the UKand European rep for the Canadian Independent Label Association. Like Music Norway, I was like Music Canada,a Canadian music expert.

Sure. Music Canada is the name of the major labelassociation. Um, and, uh, I was a freelancer and I kindof wanted to work with other countries as well. So when I founded sound diplomacy, we startedas an export office for hire. We worked with a bunch of countries and labelsand organizations on the artists development side.

And I kind of realized slowly, but truly overtime that there were a lot of issues, um, impacting the music economy and the musicecosystem that had nothing to do with music. Uh, and a lot of them are. down to the policies that we make in our communities,you know, to decide what's important and what's not important, to decide what to invest in,what not to invest in, and things like that.

And I'm admittedly far more fascinated bythat stuff. So just personally, cities, urbanism, thatkind of stuff, architecture really fascinates me. The incidents of the music industry, especiallythe granular level, doesn't interest me as much. So. But music obviously does so, you know overtime we kind of shifted and it happened through coincidence and through opportunity and throughfriends and we kind of started to evolve into developing Strategic plans of economicanalysis to outline how music can be incorporated

into solving other problems whether it's acity's economic strategy or tourism strategy or um, talent attraction or, you know, I thinkthe same way that cities treat startups, right? Um, they don't really treat music or let alonemost cultural startups. Um, and because music for the most part, isn'ta thing that you can see, um, or it's not an app.

Maybe, uh, you know, maybe there's obviouslyusing music to sell something else as an app, but music itself. So I think that there's been a lack of understandingof how music can be incorporated into. how we invest as communities and people inplace. And it kind of evolved over time and then,you know, and now we're here, Sound Diplomacy, I'm now the chair of the board and it's theday -to -day operations are run by smarter and more interesting people than me.

So all this sort of led you to write a book. And obviously it's touching the point of thepoints you just mentioned now, but if you were for me to provide me the essence of thebook, what would that be? It's the music. If we think intentionally and deliberatelyabout how music can be incorporated into everything, then music will benefit.

So, you know, music. tends to be bolted on to decisions that aremade in places rather than built in to decisions that are made. That's why you see apartment buildings nextto music venues, or you see festival sites that aren't designed properly for people flowand so on. Or no tax policy to support music or permitsare difficult to obtain or everything is more challenging than it needs to be.

My belief is if we think about music as atool to help, invest in, govern, understand places, thenwe all stand to benefit more. And the book is kind of, you know, storiesof what I've done in places, as well as what's happened in places and lessons that I've learnedalong the way and kind of what I think every city could do, or every place, it doesn'teven need to be a city, could do not only to invest in its music economy, but use thatto benefit everyone in that city.

So it's really all about, if we care aboutplace, music is an amazing tool to deepen that care. So as you say, the book is also consistedof specific examples of different locations that has done this. Could you provide me a practical case studythat can sort of showcase your argument from the book?

Yeah. So one is, I'll take... I'll take one in the US. This is a social issue, not an economic issue,but it's in Madison and Wisconsin in the US. So Madison has had significant challengesin relation to relationships with the police and the kind of black and brown and minoritycommunities there.

It manifested itself in a lot of hip hop andkind of hip hop adjacent music being in essence criminalized. And. policies are put in place to stop that musicfrom even happening. So the city recognized that this was a problemand led by an academic and a rapper, they created a task called a music and equity taskforce to address the issue.

A report was issued that led to more researchthat sound diplomacy worked on alongside others and the creation of a pressure group calledGreater Madison Music City that has since been given investment to hire a full -timeperson, zoning laws are being reformed. The problem has been addressed.

I'm, you know, look at me, I'm not the rightperson to say if it's worked, but, but it's, for example, music was used as a tool to addresssystemic racism. And through addressing systemic racism, you'readdressing entrepreneurship, you're addressing self -worth, you're addressing communitiesand so on.

So I wrote about the process of kind of howthat happened and what has happened since. That's very interesting. One of the things that I meet a lot as anentrepreneur is what some entrepreneurs call the devaluation of music or like the not verycorresponding actual worth of music towards how people value it when it comes to likeconsuming music.

And this might not be in your field of area,but do you have any thoughts about... that discussion. Music is valuable and always will be. I always say imagine exercising without music. Imagine a wedding or a funeral without music. Music is part of all our religious, for thosewho are religious, experiences.

A call to prayer is music. The music is not going away and it's partof the human condition and that's never going to change. I think what's ... devalued or maybe misunderstood is the processthat gets music to people and how much that's worth economically and socially.

And there's a lack of understanding of howit works at a pretty basic level. And also in a lot, in most countries in theworld, there is no system or there's a lack of systems. Um, you know, even in, as we know, even inthe, um, most robust system, systematization of music in the world, there'sstill challenges attributing who gets what and where and how and so on.

So like it's a complexity of the ecosystemthat gets music to us that becomes devalued because it's misunderstood or non -existent. Music itself is valued, always will be. I think we, we forget that it's music's notgoing away. It's the, um, you know, it's, it's the ecosystem.

and the businesses within it that have toarticulate our value in a different way. When you work with music the way that youdo, obviously you do put some monetary value to music as well when it comes to cities investingin music ecosystems and such.

Do you read a improvement of the conditionsaround the people delivering those ecosystems as musicians? Yeah, well, we, you know, we, as in, in general,a sense, you know, the sound diplomacy is a data research and evidence business. So, you know, one of the big issues in communitiesis there's all, there's just a lack of data to articulate the value of music.

Um, and the value of music is not just whatmusicians are telling you or stuff, right? Everyone has their own personal relationshipwith their own self -worth. Um, but one thing is, is a lot of the challengesthat we address are more top down than bottom up. Um, just because that's our place in thiscontext, right? It's not the one is more valued than the other.

Um, but articulating through the data thatthe bottom up needs to organize and say one thing, ask for one thing at a time is hugelyimportant. And we do a lot of that engaging in with andworking with community groups, whether they're musicians groups. or other forms of the sector. Because the more that music is organized,the more it will get out of whoever it's asking.

So, but through the work, we really hope thatwe demonstrate the inherent value of musicians in communities. Because everything, you know, again, on allof this is a house of cards without musicians. Like there is, there's no industry withoutmusicians. There's no, none of this would exist.

you and I wouldn't be talking. So they're at the heart of every single thingthat we do. But with sound diplomacy and the work thatI do, everything is articulated to whoever I'm speaking to. I think I said that when we chatted last time.

I see my job more as a translator in thatsense. I wish I spoke more languages, so I'd probablybe smarter. But... The whole point is explain music to the personthat you're speaking to in a language they understand. And sometimes the language of musicians ora particular kind of musician, like a musician in a Western country that benefits from copyrightinfrastructure like in Norway or the UK, is not the language of a particular governmentofficial.

So we have to work to come up with a dataand evidence base so we can bring those together. So both sides understand each and see thebenefit of it. Like I'm an eternal pragmatist. I will try to do what I think makes senseand works to get the best possible outcome in that situation.

Obviously this question we're going to donow is different from territory to territory, but do you experience there's one particularthing that's really hard to translate about the value of music to certain stakeholders. It's just the economic value. Yeah. Simple. You know, most economic development, you thinkof it, it requires a shovel.

And that's why the term shovel ready is sowell known in parts of the world. But the economic value sometimes is understood,but then the infrastructure required to extract and expand said economic value is not. So it's like, Yeah, music's worth money because my kidslove Taylor Swift or Kendrick Lamar.

Um, and then they're both great. Uh, but everything that goes into creatinga Taylor Swift or Kendrick Lamar or whatever in any country in the world, it's quite misunderstood. I might be butchering the essence of thisreport, but I read a report a couple of years ago from the city of London, I believe, whereit sort of explained the worth of music when it comes to directly.

the industry, the music industry and the sortof industries that touches industry and how they create jobs. Is that like one of the things that you guyswork with is like understanding that aspect? Yeah, you know, I have to shout out the mayorof London and Amy LeMay, the Knights are and her team and they're all great. I've been very lucky to work with them a lotover the years as a small, you know, a small cog in a big machine.

But yes, it's about the, um, You know, the inter the indirect impacts ofmusic is what you're saying. So again, venues are venues are incrediblyimportant, but not just because they're venues, because they're also kind of community centersbecause they're they generate wealth around the venue. You know, people usually go out, they gotto get there.

They're going to need something. All the services and all the businesses thatservice the venue from delivery drivers to. alcohol suppliers to accountants like it'sall of that none of that would happen if there wasn't artists on stage performingso you kind of have to work your way back and unearth that economic value that indirecteconomic value and that's that we've done that work in oh probably a hundred citiesand and London is definitely a leader in this yeah That's really interesting.

What's funny for me, and I might just be stupid,like I haven't really thought about this that much because it's kind of like, I think it'svery easy just to say, okay, this is music, this is the worth, and then forget about thethings around it that really benefits too. Do you experience the same naivety from alot of people that I'm saying now?

Yeah, I'm not saying it's naive. It's just we all come at it from our perspectivesand priorities. So. People in the music industry, again, theseare all generalizations, so please, and I'm not speaking of anyone individually here,but the traditional Western music industry tends to think very internally.

Our horses have those blinders on. I see it that way because we're focused oninternal issues about articulating our value to our peers or ... advocating or arguing or whatever. We tend to forget the external value of musicbecause we take it for granted. Because, you know, like, because it's allthere, right?

It's every song ever, you know, most of themno one will ever listen to, it seems, but every single song ever is on my phone. And we completely take for granted the infrastructureand the ecosystem that we live within because it works. Something works. And I talk about this all the time. If something functions, you forget that theprocess required for it to function.

Like, you know, like turning on the tap andhaving clean water come out. That doesn't just happen. Right. So in the music industry, we're all focusedon our own internal goals related to whatever we're doing, whether it's promoting a technologyor, or an art form or an artist or whatever. And we just forget that there's this wholeworld out there that's consuming music.

that really doesn't understand or franklycare how it gets to them. So like, you know, for me, the value is themore non -music people invest in music, right? The more it benefits music. I always say the more, if a city invests inmusic, that's essentially outsourcing talent development. It's, you know, it's the same as hiringa call center and achieve in a lower income country.

To me, it's like, let's outsource. or get external investment into somethingthat we would have to invest in anyways. And the best way for labels or management,anyone investing in the art, artists and art form itself to save money is to get someoneelse to pay for it. So that's why we need proper music educationframeworks.

It's not just about providing music education. It's just someone else, the taxpayer or whateveris paying for something that we would have to do anyways. So it's like, The more we get communities to invest in music,the more benefits music. Um, but we have to be translators and, um,collectively we're not very good at it.

If the, I totally recognize what you say aboutthe music industry. And I think one of the reasons, and I mightbe wrong, but one of the reasons is because it's such a, it's an industry that's really,you got to struggle to make a living almost like every single time there's a new ventureor there's a new job. More so than other industries that peoplereally get hyper -focused on their thing because like, I, I just got to make this work.

That's at least what I experienced, but Ido recognize, I do recognize that what you're saying with people being very, yeah. Loads of people are making a lot of moneyin this business. There's a lot of money to be made in musicand way more money that should be made in music if we had proper systems attributingeverything, right?

Like if the system worked everywhere, thenhow much would music copyright be worth, right? If every country had a proper functioningCMO or some version of or whatever, right? And they all like, And it all properly worked. Um, I don't think it's, uh, maybe I'm naiveand I say this from a place of, of privilege and luck.

Again, I, I get it. I am, uh, I have, I have made a living inthis business for a long time. Um, you know, and I'm a Western white guy. So, you know, I understand this, but I seethe challenge in our business. And more in how we articulate our value andthe systems that are in place to manage that articulation of value.

Right? Like talk to any community and say, Oh, there'sno more music today. Like, well, you know, it's, it's. We trade in something that I would say it's,it's like one of the only things that we don't need to live, but we probably would struggleto live without. Yeah. So I want to think about it differently. Um, But I, but I'm not discounting the challengesthat people face, obviously, but also, you know, like in any industry, not everybody'sgoing to succeed.

Um, it's, uh, but I, I believe that the,the playing field isn't, isn't level, but it isn't in most industries. So it's like music is not special. Music is just a representation of the peoplewho work in it. Right. We're not a unique industry. We're just an industry.

I'm sure every other industry thinks thatthey're unique as well. Like we, you know, but I do believe that wecould build, working together would make all of us more money. And I think that's something that, youknow, we need to articulate better and argue for. And that's the pragmatist in me.

That's not the political side. I mean, that's just like, there's so muchmore money out there if we just did this in a better way there for everybody. Do you think it's because of the blindersthat people don't on a practical level realize and do that? Well, everyone...

every day there's a new solution to the blackbox, right? Um, or this concept of a black box. And again, I am, there are like, there areexperts like Scott Cohen, who was the chairman of my company for seven years before me, youknow, people like him are the experts in this kind of stuff. I'm not.

Um, I find that there's always people aretrying to come up with the often there's it's, it's new ideas. keep being introduced with a lack of contextsometimes of what's come before? Or what the true issue is?

Like, how many parts of the world do publicperformance rights not exist because there's no infrastructure for venues to report setlists or artists to report set lists? How many countries actually do this? One example. So how much money is being lost there? You know, how many, how many countries havemandated music education?

I can count them on two hands. That do, you know, that actually, well, abit more than that, but like it's, um, or, you know, it's, but then there's systemicissues and then there's a temporally, um, uh, You know current issues, sorry, that's whyI'm always fascinated by the streaming debate There's constantly new solutions to how tomake this better And you always say, you know like Better for whom is the you know,one could argue in this context that the most

One of the most important players in thisis the consumer And they're getting a pretty good deal. Seeing their, their membership go up by $1or one pound in the last 13 years versus going up by inflation. That's a good deal.

I'm just, it's, I don't know, I'm getting,it's a, we just need to be, from my side, I'm not about any particular, you know, I'm,I'm neutral in this regard. I just want things to improve for everybody. But from my perspective, the translation ofhow we articulate things to government, to other forms of civil society needs to be improved.

You say you want things to improve for everybody. What's the motivation that lies behind thatstatement? It's what I'm passionate about. So, you know, again, we use a lot of wordswithout really digging into what they mean, like the word fairness, you know, fairnessfor whom, in what way.

But there just truly isn't a level playingfield for music from a policy perspective. There is no music policy of any kind reallyat any UN agency. So music gets kind of again, bolted on ratherthan built in. Um, the OECD has written one report aboutmusic ever and I've worked on it.

Um, it's, it came out a couple of years ago. It's good. Like they've done lots and lots of stuff aroundculture. You have UNESCO who do an amazing job on promotingculture and cultural good and public good of culture. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the economics of cultureand of music.

Um, so like, you know, for me, the motivationis that where you live and what you look like shouldn't impact your ability to pursue thisas a career, but it does, whether you succeed or not, I don't really care in that sense. Like, I hope you succeed, but it's reallyabout being given an opportunity that's equal to everybody else.

You know? Not everyone is born a, you know, middle -classin a rich country. Um, and, you know, also, and it's just,you know, it comes from a personal passion. It's like, I just want everyone to love musicas much as I do and to see why music is so important and why music is this incrediblejewel that we all have that we just don't seem to be, um, you know, utilizing in the way that it should.

One of the very interesting things you saida few minutes ago is about the industry trying to solve problems that maybe not is a realproblem, is the underlying problem. Obviously this podcast is sort of with theintention of speaking to entrepreneurs or people interested in this space, because Ido believe entrepreneurs in any industry does make a difference for a lot of different thingsif building a right company for the right market.

What? What would you say to entrepreneurs pursuingventures in the music industry that they generally are doing wrong or have the wrong focus? Oh, I don't know if I'm the right person toask. I think obviously do what you're passionateabout, right?

Like I always say to, when I talk to artists,I'm like, just make the best possible art. If the art is amazing, everything else willhappen. Right. It truly is that simple. I find like, yeah, there are some people whoare unlucky. And, but then again, that comes from a placeof privilege where you live in a country with systems that can then.

utilize that art as an entrepreneur. I think. Like I never really saw myself as one. That's also like, I run a consulting companyand consulting companies because we don't create apps or technology or things. We are not regarded as startups. We're not regarded as entrepreneurs. It's this like the prejudice of this wholefrankly, bullshit system of defining the business of defining and profiting off of business.

I find again, we create these rules. So like, I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder for yearsbecause I was never part of anything or considered. And, you know, cause I couldn't go into atech hub and make a product and then get someone to invest in it and then exit out becauseI was selling a service. Um, but one thing that I have learned is themore that you understand about what's around you.

This kind of the, the better prepared youare to answer questions about what you're doing. So like, I've really tried to take the time to understandhow music impacts cities and places and real estate developers in different ways, becausethat's the product that Sound Diplomacy is selling, or the Center for Music Ecosystemsis a charity, so we're not selling in that sense, but what we are offering is a pathfor music to be incorporated into global policy conversations.

So trying to understand what's happened before. And lots has happened, you know? So when it comes to creating a solution inthe music industry or, or pursuing a particular venture, thinking that your solution is thesolution, usually I found doesn't work. Having a real understanding of what's comebefore and a respect of who's done it and be humble and be modest and make it aboutthe product, not about you.

I think that's great. One of the things that I really experiencewith a lot of startups that I consult or I see their decks and have conversations withthem is the lack of context. There's a lack of historical context and industrycontext. Because a lot of the problems that seem likeour problems have underlying issues that are just much deeper and much harder to work with.

Yeah, it's a sorry. We it's an intensely complicated industry. That in many respects profits off ofcomplexity. Yeah, right. We live in a business where we create complexitybecause complexity makes people money who understand how to.

Tackle said complexity, right? Simplifying things is not a business modelin the music industry. From my perspective. Making things more complicated is a way tomake money. I think of it differently. I'm like, make it as complicated as you wantwithin the industry and do whatever you want, but we need to explain music's value in assimple a way as possible.

The complexity behind it doesn't matter. And a perfect example is how many people knowhow this thing works? If you pull it apart, 1 % of the people whouse them, probably less. Right? If I opened the screen of my phone, I wouldhave no idea how it works or an airplane. How many people know how an airplane works? Really? Yeah.

We all get in them every day and trust themto ferry us around the world. Music's the same. So however complex it is internally, we needto simplify it externally. Um, and depending on what you choose to doas a founder, you either enter the world of complexity and then try to figure it out orcome up with a way to explain it and then develop a system for that.

That's really interesting. That's something very concrete, you know,we can take away from this podcast as well as like those two approaches. I've never had it explained that way. So I really appreciate that. What's your, what's your ultimate goal withthis work you do? Like what is, what is the impact you concretelywant to see? And I know you've, you've mentioned it multipletimes, but make it as concrete for me as possible.

So I can understand when you in 20. Every single country in the world has a policyand a structure. that invest in supports, protects, managesmusic as an industry. So that music as an economy is an economyeverywhere. And no matter what you look like or whereyou live or where you're from, you have an opportunity.

Um, and you don't have to move. You don't have to domicile your content elsewhereor sell everything unless you want to. That's my goal is for music to be an active,intentional and deliberate player. in helping address and solve global problems. And in doing so, it needs to be an economyeverywhere, not just a utility.

That's amazing. And also for me, because, you know, one ofthe things that I've been maybe a bit scared of is even though you say there's a lot ofpeople in music industry making a lot of money, I would say that's a particular type of businessin particular type of areas. And I've sort of been scared about... you know, my own career because that's notnecessarily the direction I want to go.

And I want to see, you know, for the peopleI love, the colleagues and friends around me also pursue music that they can, you know,have a living, sustainable living for things that they love to do when they're really goodat it. And one of the things I've been concernedabout is obviously the current state and where it's developing. And it seems like this developing positively,maybe to what you were saying that these systems and structures are developing.

Do you believe the music industry can be as... financially attractive to non -creative industriesin the future? Yeah, of course. Why would I be doing this? I'd do something else. I believe music can be everything to everyone. I believe that we can have an industry that'sworth five or six times what it's worth.

And that employs hundreds of thousands morepeople. Yeah. I do. Yeah. Why not? Yo, that's a big question and I think forme this conversation has really sparked those thoughts because I've sort of been stuck inthat question for a long time and this really gave some perspective. No problem.

I appreciate your time being on our podcastand sometimes these episodes are shorter just because there's been so much gold and thisis one of them and I really need to sit back now and think a bit about what you say. But if you could give me one last advice. to people listening to the podcast of howto change their mindset about how they think about music in their business and the thingsaround them.

What would that be? Um, well, you know, you, you know, passioncan't be, to me, you know, passion can't be created process can be created, right? So it's like, you're passionate about thisor you're not, but the way you think about music isn't the way that everybody does.

So the more open you are to understandinghow other people see music, I believe. More opportunities, I hope it will createfor whatever it is that you're doing. Well, thank you Shane for being on the podcast. I really hope that your message and your agendareally starts all over the world.

Really take, take a lot of, have a lot oftraction. Well, I really thank you and hope to speakto you soon as well. Cheers.