Why Audience Data Is the New Currency in Live Music

Jakob Wredstrøm

Hi guys and welcome back to the podcast, special partnership episode with Bema. Lorraine, welcome in the studio.

Jakob Wredstrøm

We're gonna have a very special talk today. Taj, my colleague, who's also the host of Sound of Startups podcast will be joining us as a co-host because he will also be joining BIMA as a part of the Startup program. So I'm very excited today to take it from both his angle and my angle and understand the topic of today, which is audience development. Lorraine, for the people who don't know you, who are you and what do you do?

Lauriane

So after studying emerging markets and international development, they've been around the world. I moved to Spain where I've been for the past four years. I used to develop a French company called Aynometrics. That was one of the members of the 2024 cohort of Music Tech Europe Academy. And Aynometrics, it's a data platform, audience development strategies, and it really helps festival understanding the behavior of the consumers. So after that, I joined this year the Music Tech Hub and I'm working with them to coordinate events, foster knowledge sharing and connect members of the Hub, not only with investors but also with artists, with creators and we try to have a complete vision of the music system.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Amazing. And Taj, you and me have something in common today, and that is we both come from a novice angle of understanding of space. But Taj, for the people who don't know you and your podcast, maybe you can explain yourself as a person who actually don't know music that much. And it's going to be both our angles today about this specific topic today. So who are you, Taj?

Taj

you Yeah. Okay, my name is Taj. I live in Norway and I run a podcast called The Sound of Startups. And my podcast essentially focuses on the journeys of startup founders because for the simple reason, once a business is made big, then entrepreneurs are celebrated everywhere. But when they are in the making process, nobody cares about them. And I realized that the caring part is very important, telling the people the journey, hard work which goes on to make a startup and that's why this podcast was started and we interview people from across the domain but mainly around culture side of things and music is what we have interviewed most of the people on till now.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Lorraine and Taj, you'll both be part of the startup program at BIMA. Lorraine, can you walk us through, before we start the topic today, what is actually happening in Spain next week?

Lauriane

So the BIME, it's Bilbao International Music and Business Conference. So it's really one of Spain's flagship festivals and conference platforms. So the pro part has a very rich program with panels, networking, and a lot of professional sessions. It's really important on the national level, but not only because it really opens up to Latin America as well. There is now an edition of BIME in Bogota, which may. We'll get to see super interesting conversations with leaders from the industry and also the startup program where every year we see a dozen innovative participants and there's a big jury and a big competition at the end. This is for the pro part, on the live part, I think Taj and I will get the chance to participate in a lot of free live shows representing emerging artists, mostly concerts.

Jakob Wredstrøm

And obviously, you know, a big part of such conferences is, well, centered around the music industry. And at the end of the day, the people who are running or paying for the music industry are the audience and the fans. And that's going to be the center of the subject today. For starters, maybe could you explain to me, what does it mean to do audience development? Like, what is the actual topic that you do? Try to break it down in like the seamless format so both me and Tosh can understand.

Lauriane

I mean it's like you know, imagine you organize a party in your home and you know nothing about the people that join right? How would you feel? Would you feel comfortable? Would you be able to offer something that they would like? So that's what audience development is about. It's not only about getting new people in the house or at the festival. It's really about learning what profile wants to join and what they are interested in. Why do they come to your event and don't go to another? Is it the information, is it the people, is it just the feeling of community that you manage to like spread during your event? So audience development is understanding all of that and really like trying to retain the most loyal participants in order for them to attract your new participants. It's real strategy that goes much, much beyond selling more tickets as it is often reduced.

Jakob Wredstrøm

And how widely is sort of audience development focused on in live festivals? Because my limited understanding of how a lot of live scenes are sort of worked on is a very... It's experience-based way of working that some people might not have like an academic approach to why they believe something is working, something is not working. And obviously working with audience development would be a, let's call it a more informed, technical, academic or marketing oriented way of looking at this. But how much does the live industry think about this?

Lauriane

Exactly, now that's completely correct. We're working in a sector of emotions. So how can you quantify emotions, right? So we're selling emotions and experiences, right, in life. So for festivals at first and when I arrived in Spain talking about Arena Metrics, there is no other specialized data platform for audience development in the sector. It's still really new. Like our first clients were festivals, promoters were really... Pioneer in this way like they were really already ahead of their peers and that's why they wanted to start with like working with us because they understood and they also had in their team a very professional CTOs and people who also had that good technical background to understand how to connect all of the different platforms from one would gather audience data whether it's like the ticketing platform But also like the newsletter the social networks that in order to get all of that in one spot So it's really using the experience and selling the dream through a beautiful narrative, but also taking into account the data for it to be then a data-driven task and putting really like talking in a different way to the people who are coming for the first time and having a completely different approach with the one who have been coming for the last five years, for example. So it's really about educating the teams, also working alongside them to help them understand that it's not just about massive marketing that it's going to work, but really profiles need to be defined to understand how to communicate with each person.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yeah. Taj, you and I have been sort of dabbling in the ticket space. Even though our experience didn't take us very far in that, one of the things that we really discovered was that most ticket systems or festival arrangers, venues, doesn't really have a lot of relationship to data. What's been your experience diving into, let's say, ticketing, for example, and trying to look at data and that whole aspect,

Taj

Music ticketing in itself is a very different game than any other sort of ticketing because music is a very high intensity experience and most of the time that we have seen that if you try to sell ticket as a commodity It's not how things will work and this is not how you get a house full of music stuff. At least on the music side, there is a need for certain emotion and that emotional understanding of the product can only come when you have deeper insight with who are the fans, what kind of people have attended festivals before, which is the artist which is performing there. And then you sort of position your festival in a particular way and that's only the right way to move a ticket. If you do commoditize the product, I don't think that part is working.

Jakob Wredstrøm

But even, Taj, through our very limited understanding, people didn't use the data. So Lorraine, when you're talking about audience development and also what I of touched upon, how the live industry works is like, seems to, there's not even a big effort as of to use this. It seems very legacy, like yes, they have insights, they have CIM that they use for outbound marketing. Like, if you've been to a similar show before, I might market to you again. But the business doesn't seem to be these sort of conclusions of who has been there. Do you see a change of people trying to adapt to this?

Lauriane

Well, I guess, yeah, like it's getting closer. So there is more and more interest also from the fact that, you know, like the people want to feel closer. But again, like it's kind of the beginning of something. So as I was saying, like, festivals that we started to work three years ago, now most of the medium festivals, they are looking up to them and be like, okay, how can we actually do that? How can we get there? And it's the thing that audience development, like it really depends a lot on

Jakob Wredstrøm

Lauren.

Lauriane

Data quality. So in order for it to work, you really need to have clear data and also interconnection between your different platforms. So not all of them have that. To set up the base, it's not an easy task. So already you like to have something that's really easy to understand from your website, from your ticketed platform, from your social medias, and eventually from the newsletter and from the community that you build, that you know something of. Once you have those four pillars connected, then you can actually start. So a lot of people would want to have it, but maybe sometimes it takes some time to actually reach that stage where it's possible to navigate through the data and actually use it in order to develop it.

Jakob Wredstrøm

And what's the barrier of entry? Like, does promoters have the right to ask ticket systems for the data that they have?

Lauriane

Very good question. It really depends country per country. See that in Spain it really depends. Most of the time when promoters are not aware that data is valuable, that it's somehow their treasure as well, it's lying in the contract and then it wouldn't be there. So if after the festival the ticketing platform keeps all of the data, well what's left for the promoter to make sure that they will thank all of the participants and encourage them to come back next year? It's really difficult without the data in it. There is the situation where like the promoter has one ticketing platform. There is a situation where like the promoter has five different ticketing platforms as well, and then different contract with all of them. Us as a, when we were working for this CDP, we were really always encouraging the promoters to be in control of their data. Like if they are the organizer, they are like the whole creativity behind it, they should also own the data. But it's sometimes in a battle with ticketed platforms who somehow also want to enrich their own database and then like to use and market it for their own events. So not only take the data from the promoter, but use it to promote themselves and become bigger themselves.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yeah, because most ticket systems are looking for that sort of edge in retention. How do they keep promoters from switching ticket systems? How do they create the competitive edge when it comes to the choice between them? Life Nation has, at least for many years, had the, well, we can market to your audience as well as a very big, sorry, ticket master, not Life Nation. Almost the same. They've had this edge of being able to market to your audience that has been sort of almost exclusively them that's been able to create that at scale. But I would imagine also to your point that a lot of ticket systems are understanding that edge is something they also need to have, but then probably also have an interest of not sharing too much of that value because they want to sort of keep promoters locked in. What's that dynamic? Is that sort of a correct reading of me?

Lauriane

It's true. I mean, I will say it's true that in the ticketing sector, for example, in Spain, I know it's very, very competitive. I mean, there are new ticketing platforms every year. So it's also one leverage that the promoter can have being like, okay, I only want to work with a ticketing platform that gives me the data. And also, I mean, there are like some ticketing platforms who also understand the ethics behind it. I mean, like who organizes the event, who creates the traction for the event should be the one who owns the data. So yeah, it can be a leverage in a very, very competitive sector, but then it's up to the promoter to make sure. Usually they do have the last words, but it's their own tight negotiations.

Jakob Wredstrøm

We promised that the audience at the start that we'll keep it on a novice level and we're already going quite deep. And Taj, not because I want to demean you anything, but one of your strengths is that you're not from music. So just for the sake of the audience, if you just want to play the persona of the audience right now that might be discovering this field, what are the things that already now has gone over your head? What are the unanswered questions in the dialogue that Mila Rain just had?

Taj

You

Taj

No, I'm not unanswered. Would just support her, actually, Lauren, what she's saying in a different way is that going forward, if promoters have control over the data of who their audience is and what they eat, the way of positioning the whole festivals or the music will completely change. Because right now, it is, OK, this is happening. And then if you want, you buy the ticket. There's a reverse way is that when you know your audience and you know what they want and what they're looking for, you reverse the script set. This is what you want. This is what you have already seen before. But this year we want to have this also. So the chances of selling will become much better if the more promoters are in the control of data. But obviously the platform will always lose that edge and their whole economy for future will get dangerous if they start providing too much of information. But there is actually, there will always be going to be fine balance, how much to give and how much to ask. And the bigger question which now I asking you, an industry that is operating at a margin, net margin of 3-5%. How will that ticketing industry survive if they give up the data? Net margin is 3-5 % maximum after all the expenses. That's my question to you Lauren.

Lauriane

Exactly, I mean it's of course difficult to always evaluate who gets what in the live sector. So we are already talking about the tech branch of the live which gets the most minimum already percentage of the market and then exactly a ticketing platform. So from my perspective in Spain, yes, we do have a lot of, as I say, new ticketing platforms. Really lowering their margin and lowering their cost in order to get more visibility and names. So in order for that to work with big clients, I've seen that they are not afraid to lose money so far until they get the visibility and until they become one of the big names in this oligopol where there are a few international ticketing platforms that control the whole thing. Then exactly, should it be between ticketing systems to try to look up to the bigger ones? Or then look at promoters and trust them to help them grow as well.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Because this is a really important topic and even though it's somewhat not audience development, it's so incredibly closely related in the dynamics. So again, this is sort of not as modern as it was two years ago, but when there's been these discussions about Live Nation and Ticketmaster and when you look at the sort of economics of it, like there's not a lot of profit here. And if you were just talking about the sort of ticket fees, per default, that would not be enough for sort of Ticketmaster and Life Nation to run a profitable business. It's all the surrounding things, which is about knowing their audience development. And the smart thing about the Life Nation and Ticketmaster partnership beyond the complexities and monopoly accusations and such, is that they have the data as a promoter and as a ticket provider and can create this sort of... very big economy around this whole thing where it's not just selling tickets, it's also selling beer and parking spots and merch and all these sort of secondary nature things, which is about them understanding the audience that they're promoting to. My question is, is there really a fighting chance? If you became a really good independent sort of festival promoter that really understood your audience well, how do you... stand to finding chance of like these giants that has this in place already.

Lauriane

Well, as you say, the giants, also keep the data. For any promoter working with Ticketmaster, for example, it's really difficult for them to own their own data. We, as a CDP, they were fine with Ticketmaster to try to get the data and offer it directly to the promoter. On that aspect, connecting and offering different services to the audience and maybe VIP packages, merch. Of the services that you offer to the audience directly can also be a way to do cross-sells and of course increase the benefits of each festival. So it's really like having this one-stop shop where the participant can, as you say, like for example, buy a pack of drinks already or like buy something to already put in his wallet once they will be at the festival and they will pay with a wristband or something. So all of this information, again, can also be tracked and using business intelligence, it can really also enrich how and when to communicate to each segment. That's your different participant, the one who come and like always spend more than 200 euros during the festival. Well, we thank them and we also like offer them in advance, offering for some kind of like special experiences only to a few in order to create a higher margin on your most of your participants.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You mentioned a lot of specifics here, and because this is somewhat of a new topic still for me to really practically understand, could you run through one of the cases you've worked on, like before and after? Like what was the situation before, what sort of products and services were offered after, what was the change based on sort of the understanding of the audience and the audience development in general? Like a really practical example just for me to really understand the impact of this effort.

Lauriane

So for example, I've been working for a CDPA, we've been working with one promoter who was selling tickets through two different ticketing platforms. So having the data that is completely decentralized, they really had two different split views of their audience. So connecting all of this data to one platform really helps deduplication, seeing who was from one database, who was from another, and just really unifying the work. So on top of that, with the right training, you can actually learn how to choose, for example, to focus on the recurring participants and observe how they've been acting in the past few years. So this festival, for example, it's a festival that exists for like more than 15 years. So the first time comers 15 years ago, they grew up, maybe now they have families. So how to actually understand and adapt the offer to them? Well, by just like knowing as much as possible about their socio-demographics and then maybe tiling with the rest of the team all the type of events to actually go to them and who for the ones who don't want to join the big festival where there is 25,000 people every year anymore maybe organize some smaller events with more family-oriented activities maybe in the settings that will be preferred for people in their 30s, 40s, like a wine yard, maybe instead of a huge festival location. So it's really just learning who is your audience and then being ready to adapt, experience and try new things in order to retain your most loyal followers and make sure that your festival doesn't just attract the 18 to 25 every year and keeps renewing itself because the people who started to follow in the first place, they're actually really well connected. To not the brand, but the space that was created.

Taj

I think this is very interesting. This is something which I haven't heard much before. So what you are essentially saying is that the segmentation of your core audience in different types, forms, shapes and size based on how they feel, how they... how they have lived the festival or the experience and then you're saying customize experience according to them. Example, you said somebody who came to the festival when he was 15 and now the festival is 15 year old. So basically right now there is a 30 year old man walking with five year old kid, five year old daughter and son and then with a wife and then you say for families there is a special section if you have children which are under 10. So if you are able to create that sort of experiences then it makes a lot of sense because now the original audience remembers that the festival cares for them, the festival remembers them and they're not trying to sell a commodity called ticket and they are not after to sell me cola and beer and a sandwich. They think much more than deeper than me. Does that make sense?

Lauriane

That's it, it's really like keeping on trial and error, innovating in that way so the festival doesn't have just one format. See today with the thousands of the festivals in Europe, many different kind of size, cross-sector offers and different types of presentation. Music festival with the pro, mean for example, Bimei is also a segmented festival with two different types of audience at least. And so it's really always about that. Understanding how to then talk to them and understanding for example if they're interested in one aspect or more than one aspect in order to communicate in that way.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I think one of the things that I'm... I see a lot is also the complications of size to some degree, right? Because it does require a certain investment to get into a place where you know this. You can either have resource behind the analysis of the past track record and how to adopt strategies to the future. There needs to be a know-how somewhere, even if it's just the tech side. There's cost associated to it. My assumption is that smaller independent festivals would really struggle getting access to this information, really struggling to make some actionable next steps to this. How do you see that whole perspective with the small players being in the loss to some degree already now because they don't have the resources to know this, which would be their competitive advantage if they had access to it? How do you see that dynamic?

Lauriane

Yeah, I mean, of course it's always more difficult for smaller festivals because they don't prioritize the same way, right? I mean, with the big festival, they have a budget line for almost everything that they need. With a small festival, it was like, okay, well, we have this budget and we need these five things and we can only afford one. So I would say that for smaller venues, they can still use their social medias and try from maybe creating a community. So that's what we've seen. We've seen smaller festivals and smaller events. They can actually just strengthen the feeling of belonging with different channels that are not so costly. Like a newsletter. I mean, a newsletter doesn't cost so much. And already through that, it's a two-way communication. You can really put there a lot of forms in order to get to know the audience better and not just the satisfaction from at the end of the festival. So there is really something that you can do that is not costly and it's just about creating this first database and working with them because if they want to be part then they will also want the festival to grow. So if the festival has to prioritize and then spend money on other tech tools, well there's still something that they can do and bootstrap until they become bigger and they can actually afford a CDP and afford all of the integrations with the different systems. But until then, community led works as well. Word of mouth.

Jakob Wredstrøm

What would be the first steps of owning data? I've been a part of promoting tours and festivals and such. And you use tools like Meta, where you have top of funnel, you have retargeting, you have people to events, and you can retarget, you have fan bases, you can consolidate. But obviously, this data you can't really export. You can't just say, me a CSV file of all of this. Because first of all, it's huge networks of data that's proprietary to, for example, Meta. But then also, their whole business model is that you can't get access to it. So what is the first step if you want to have access to data, get your own data, and could start working with it? What's an actionable first step?

Lauriane

It's beautiful, like there are lots of beautiful startups and programs and platforms that can actually help you do that. For example, the question that you just mentioned, it really makes me think of one of the companies that I collaborate with, which is called Control Reach, used to be called Your Music Marketing. And it exactly like it's not an expensive platform and it can actually helps you put an intermediary between everything that you're going to do with Meta. So each new contact that you can... capped from Meta will actually also enter in your database directly because as you say, the data that you can get from Meta, it's a third party data, they give you an ID that is impossible to read if you don't have an encryption way to understand it. It's really with small companies, small promoters can work with small companies who are really designed for them. It's not about just creating the bridges and letting all of those small promoters that this exists. And for example, yeah, a company like Control Rich will really help artists, artist managers and promoters understand their database through media ads. So instead of working directly with Meta, you use this platform and then you can really, it's completely like RGP compliant and then they can actually get the data, reuse it through newsletter or through retargeting without having this blockage of the data.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So just for me to understand correctly, you know, in a specific use case, for example, you might have a significant audience that you've gathered through marketing on Meta before. And then you could use a platform like ControlReach. So when you then retarget these audience through APIs and access like that, you also have like a collection of the re-engagement through these platforms where they also capture the data themselves to some degree. So it's basically utilizing the existing data from these platforms, retargeting, but then with some sort of conversion event or data collection event, we now can own this in a separate third party environment. Do I understand it correctly?

Lauriane

That said, it's really like, know, for example, with Control Rich, it's one thing that like, we'll see a story that's promoting a festival or an artist and you click on it and it's just a tiny form. Like just one line, give your email, just tick one box and that's it. What I'm building, for example, right now with the Music Tech Hub as well, it's the same. It's getting just like, it's a very easy form to implement in order to like get more people to then like understand their interest as well, again, just through an email and a form. So it's not crazy tech tools and it's one of the most antique ways of communicating, but it's still today the only one that lets the promoters own the information and have the legal right to communicate directly as well.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Hmm. Taj, maybe your understanding about this is also a bit the same, but...

Taj

Yeah.

Jakob Wredstrøm

One of the things that we've talked about, and maybe it's very bluntly said, I don't want to offend anyone when I say it, is you don't necessarily get the top of class from Stanford and Harvard coming directly into the music industry and deploying the newest technologies and mindsets typically into music. Therefore, oftentimes you have people working in the industry that has very strong intuition, very strong community engagement skills. But there is, to my knowledge at scale, very limited capacity for thinking superstructured about new technology and new approaches. Taj, I think the persona that we've met a lot is about the passion for music, but that also being a quite big barrier of entry for adaptation of new technology. Maybe you can have a question at that angle, because we've talked about this.

Taj

Okay.

Taj

Yeah, okay, okay. I was actually waiting for that. I mean, the whole, I mean, with our limited experience in the spaces that the whole industry is driven by passion and I know it, it will work. That's the whole mindset or I have a gut feeling. Nobody says, but the data says so. And the moment say, the data says so, everybody in the room just say, okay, where did that come from? And now here you are, you are trying to brand an entire festival, entire music, economic and saying, but you should have a data which says so. So don't you think you're trying to push something on an industry which has very less to do what data says so?

Lauriane

I've seen personally that a lot of those conferences, music tech, music and music business conferences, there is often one of those controversial debates, right? Intuition or data, there is always one. And I mean, I would say your intuition is not, it's very rarely going to be completely destroyed by data. Data is not going to say exactly the opposite of the intuition of the promoter. But of course, a lot of them just started from a group of friends having creative ID and then tag and data and having to like solidify their answer with numbers is always the thing that like the least. However, now we're sure that data can actually amplify the intuition of the promoter. And if you take it in that way, it's not only just like basing your information on numbers, but also finding a way to bring a better storytelling and a better narrative using those numbers to amplify the good feeling and present it and also feel more legitimate in front of investors or the Western industry.

Jakob Wredstrøm

One interesting question is, sorry, ties in music.

Taj

Sorry, yeah, I'll exactly get a counter to the same, to another industry which is passion driven, that's what films. Do you know the fact that, I do not know, but I'm just trying to put it this way, that Netflix is not a cinema or film company. Netflix publicly say we are a data company. Netflix, the biggest broadcaster in the world, says we are a data company. And this was shocking to the biggest film studios around the world, which once say, director has a vision and then there is an art and there is an actor who will do the magic. And then comes the Netflix. They said, okay, everything fine. We are a data company. And by the way, everything that Netflix produces today is based on solid, strong data points. And that's where after that, producer, directors, and writers are onboarded. That here is the data. Now you need to make a series out of it. So do you think anything like that will ever happen? to music because Netflix is a case study for that.

Lauriane

Well, I don't see labels. Even the majors are not getting that close to the homogenization that Netflix is kind of creating today. You're right. I know that Netflix is an expert in personalization and consumer behaviors analytics. Sadly, yes, as we are underlying here, it's kind of like leading towards something that's more bland. and less specialized and with less creative direction behind. So I hope that this won't happen to the music. Again, here it's about education. It's about also telling everyone that you should listen to more than one track that you find on your curated playlist and you should go and check out the artist in order to create your own music and not just listen to music passively because... Otherwise that might be the case. mean, if you just watch Netflix passively, then it will just continue of sending you very similar things that is in its own best interest. But I think in the music world, people don't just listen just because they actually like some genre of music. And that's also with the discovery that they can also learn more. If you keep them curious, it won't happen.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I have a question, know, if you have some festivals are more driven by the love for music or specific song and some are less and I'll give you two examples. I'm from Denmark originally, I live in Norway, but Roskilde Festivall, I'm saying it in very Danish way, which is, you know, one of Europe's biggest festivals. I believe it's around 150,000 per year that goes to that festival. But the beautiful thing about this, on the sideline that I've observed, is many of my friends goes for 10, 15, 20 years. Like, know, from they can come the very first time until their kids are so grown that the partner says, you gotta stay home now. Like, that's sort of one end of the thing where it's that communal thing. And then you have festivals where... you know, utopia festival close to where we live, which in all honesty is a drinking festival. Like people get pissed and you know, the music of course is important, but like it's much more heavy on that. How do you as a promoter really understand how to build a brand and an audience in a very specific manner that's consistent? Like how does that actually work? Because both of these, you know, there are two different things, but they're very intentional, very repeated. Like, what is the mindset for promoters? Like, what is the process they go through in order to have this continuity?

Lauriane

Well, that's really interesting. Exactly what you just mentioned, it really made me think of one of my former clients that was a festival that is only dedicated, it's like the first festival of the teenager. It's like exactly before they go when they're 17, 18. And that's what they go for. So year after year, because as you say, the repeat, there is the iteration process that also help understanding what worked like last year, what worked better this year, what might work better next year, and also the things that maybe don't work as much as before. So for this one particular festival and like what we also recommend to most promoters, it's to actually go in this post-event satisfaction collection and there like, yeah, make it like five minute long if it's necessary, offer something for the audience so they also win something by sharing their data and their interest. And you will see that it works. Like there is a very, like more than 50 % of response from this particular festival and you can see, mean, you can go through the whole data and the open question of like, why did you come here? Who did you come here with? Who do you want to see next year? Will you come next year? And exactly, so with this information, you really have the answer from 50 % of your audience, among which like almost 90 % of them will say, yes, I'm coming back next year. And then you're also listening to what they want. So you're also listening to maybe their artist preferences, what they would like to see. And if then there is this really two ways communication between the festival and its audience, the audience also feel seen. It feels like it belongs even more and then it's really happy to somehow work on participatory level to help design the festival. The festival understands its brand, its vision even more, and then specifies in there to just go and find. look alike, like go and find the friends of the participants who are already coming.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I have a few more questions in this topic, but actually I do want to take a switch to something because I think there's something important we haven't covered and that is autists. So we talked a lot about sort of ticket systems or that dynamic with promoters, but obviously at the end of the day, know, autist is the one sort of providing the value. What's sort of the dynamic between promoters and artists? Because in the same way there's some sort of gate-capped dynamic between the ticket system promoter, there must also be that between the promoter and artists because they have the same incentive as ticket systems have. They want to retain relationships that can make them money. What's that dynamic in the market right now?

Lauriane

completely. mean, working for three years for a CDP platform, I interacted with very, very few artists. It's really happening now, and I will speak now from the music tech hub perspective, now I'm meeting actually a lot of artists who are really interested in all of the platforms that are developed for them to get in touch with their audience, to get in touch with their data. So even though it's much more difficult for an artist to ask the promoter to get their own data because if you're part of a festival, how can you know which part of the participants is actually going to see your concert? So for an artist, legally, it's really difficult to get that. To get this information, for concerts, it is actually bigger. So yeah, I used to say for three years that, of course, the promoter owns the data. And now, recently working with the Music Tech Hub and seeing a lot of emerging artists. The data should belong to the artist creating the music and creating the value that we are all going to see, right? Festivals are just made in that way that the festival, the promoter can always say, well, you don't know who is your art. Like you don't know who is your audience and we cannot share with you the whole data from all of the artists. So I think they're somehow protected in that way. We also see a lot of new platforms, fun engagement platforms. For example, I will talk with Pepe del Rio who created SESH. which is really like a community-based platform where none of the festivals is actually going to enter here. It's really like the direct communication between the artist and its fans. There, directly, they can collect the data about their fans and they can actually sell merch. They can talk in a more direct way, so something that was not available on social media, not available through the promotion that they received from festival. It's also opening like a new channel. where, well, fans can feel seen from their favorite artist in the same way that participants of a festival feel seen, although it will engage even more. So I would say that community-led platform and this really, like this new way of not using social media but having a direct channel to work with the artist is creating right now their own value and treasure. And Mau and Ricky, who will be sharing the stage with me next Tuesday, that's...

Lauriane

Exactly, yeah, that's their thing. They're artists, but they're also entrepreneurs and they really understood that they need to gain more data about their fans in order to also keep them closer and to keep on constantly innovating to keep them closer so that they don't go away.

Taj

With this I have a question that now it's interesting. So artists create the stuff saying this is what I think, this is what I believe in, this is what I'm playing for you. And listen to my heart, listen to my mind, what I'm saying. And that's how artists and fan connection is developed by and large. Now you are coming an industry, you're proposing an industry where data will be collected and... it will make the festival better. But now imagine if that same data goes back to the artist and you ask him that, you know what, what you're playing is not working. Or you need to change it. Or you need to make it different. Don't you think when you do this, you're fundamentally playing with the idea of and artistry?

Lauriane

Well, who will be that person telling them that? I think for the artist, it's more rather than like adapting to what your public says you should think. It's really about finding your specialized audience and if your audience telling you to change and to actually do different songs, then maybe this artist hasn't found his niche audience just now. But that's the thing, it's about like...

Jakob Wredstrøm

Mm.

Lauriane

going out there and it's better to have a smaller audience that is specialized in the release and spend time to your track rather than having a mass that you're trying to please by losing your art and then your identity, your musical identity.

Taj

So, big, yeah.

Jakob Wredstrøm

But, Dajar, I have a follow-up question, Lorraine, that I think is interesting, and it's more like maybe a deduction based on a conversation. Because you, we've talked about the sort of dynamics between ticket platforms and promoters and the gatekeeping, their retention, all that kind of stuff. The same between the promoters and the artists, you talked about the complexity of sharing data because of GDPR and what data belongs to you as an artist. is basically what you're saying that the most viable way for Nazis to connect with their fans is to utilize platforms to then somehow capture data in an alternative way while interacting in your activities. While doing marketing, you can capture it. While doing festivals, you can capture it. While you're doing other things, you can capture it. But there is no like direct line of viable scale in going the traditional route, which is I'm playing at a festival. I want my data from that festival. That's not surrealistic, is that what you're saying?

Lauriane

Exactly. Yeah, for the reason that I mentioned, it's not something that maybe works today. It also depends who is backing you up as a label, as a house. So I think that also has some weight in it. But again, yeah, just starting organically. And as you say, artists who get a gig in a concert hall, artists who are actually about to launch one song, an EP, through all of this, each step that they have, they can actually create digital touchpounds. And months after months, they will gain more and more followers and they will gain the followers that they can actually communicate with. And then, in the span of a few months of here, it's enough data to start segmenting.

Jakob Wredstrøm

To some degree, think it's depressing to hear that, even though it's hopeful that there's a way of monetizing your assisting career in a new way. If you want to look at it from the dark angle is, analyst might have built a career for many years and they basically need to start over in order to take the value of the data, which is immense, and actually start monetizing on it, which I think is fairly depressing, to be honest. But what's your outlook on that?

Lauriane

Yeah, it's true. But you also have to know that maybe 20 % of your audience generates 80 % of the value you gain. So if you have to do rebuilds, obviously the ones that were just there before, they're still here. It's not like you have to go and reach a whole new market. So I emphasize on that aspect, it's really cherishing your most loyal fans. who live and think about the artist and are ready to pay for merch and they are ready to buy CDs and more products. And through that, really capitalizing on this, I think it's not so disastrous and it can actually look helpful for the future.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yeah, so basically saying that even though that might be a vast quantity of data, because of the super fan terminology or people who wants to engage more, it might be also easier to get them to sort of collect that data somehow than if it was like of all of the data representing all your fans. So that the spending part of the audience would be easier to capture because they were, you know, per default be more engaged. That's sort of what you're saying.

Lauriane

Really, I mean, with it's been, it's really been proven that, know, virality doesn't really actually help you make more money as an artist. So instead of looking for a lot of vanity metrics and so many, so many like big numbers of like views on a TikTok seven second video that the person didn't choose to watch instead of focusing on that, actually focusing on who opens like each of my newsletter. And some artists already do it. There are lots of artists who send their own newsletter, and sometimes they will also target just with the city and be like, OK, well, I'm playing in your city in two weeks. Just drop the message directly, and then you can actually get it. So in my mind, there is a lot that can be done with just a few information, just really the location of your database and just the level of engagement. And then you can really start. growing and really growing in a way that every time is going to give you more information and so you can really base your growth on data and real checked information.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I have a last question before sort of rounding up the podcast. And I'll ask that question on behalf of the audience we have, which is founders. And when you start a company in an industry or within a certain segment of an industry, this being, for example, collection of fan data or the fan relationship. it really matters where you are in the adaptation of the industry to this. So for example, if you're very early mover, you might have the benefit of first mover advantage, but most likely you're the one spending a lot of money, education, or waiting for the audience to change or the incumbents to change in order for you to have a viable business. And if you're too late, obviously the market is red. That's too many people already playing for sort of the same market. Where are we in your opinion in that spectrum? Like, we very early days or are we too late to the party? Like, Founders that wants to build something and have impact in this field, where are we right now?

Lauriane

Well, I would say that the one that I founded, for example, the one we'll talk about next week during the BIME, SESH, it started in the US directly, and on that market, it really started strong. It just needed a few collaboration with big artists for it to really reach a good level and a good amount of traction. So it really depends on how you specify your tool and to which market. So SESH, for example, grew really, really fast in the US and it's like a very promising startup. On the other hand, Control Reach now is, it's based in France, but it's also thinking about going international. Why? Because I mean, thanks to MusicTech Europe, thanks to all of the networks that we have, can now we have a better vision and transparency on like what is being developed right now and what is not. So that part of data audience, as you say, like it's, I would say we're still towards the beginning. But there are already products that have been there sold for like three four years that keep being developed that can being improved and that really grow in this sense So I would say there is still some possibility depending on where you choose to Localize your markets like geographically or then if you're more talking to artists if you're more talking to labels or if you're more talking to Promoters, but I would say there is still room for growth

Jakob Wredstrøm

That makes sense, but it's important because where you are in the adaptation really matters of the viability and possibility of investors for many different stakeholders, that being investors, partners, artists. If everyone already has a product in a certain segment, it's going to be much harder to convert them into this new relationship rather than if they didn't have anything. So that really matters. Lauren and Taj, I hope you guys have a lot of fun next week being at the startup. I sadly couldn't come anyways, but I know that you're going to talk to startups and be there. So I hope that people reach out to you and talk about this topic. And I know Taj, that's particularly new for you. And you'll come in as an outsider perspective to the conference.

Taj

Yeah.

Taj

Yeah. So thank you, Laureen and Jacob, for having me here. And I really look forward to being at Bina. And I really enjoy. And I look forward to the acetyluretta program. then... catch up to. Thanks for watching.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Thanks Lorraine so much for time.

Lauriane

Jacob, yeah, will be a pleasure to show you around next week.

Taj

Okay, thank you.