The Business of Music Catalogs: How Artists can Profit from IP

Jakob Wredstrøm

That streams, downloads, and uploads at the same time, which means if it gets a bit grainy, I'm not going to see that at the end result. So again, if it lags, it gets grainy, not going to affect the end result. And the same thing with audio. We have audio processing tools that works really well. So if there's background noise, we can just ignore it. It's not going to take it up. OK. Let's try again. We have one way that we start the podcast every single time. It's super simple. And that's basically just a...

Yonas Aregai

Okay.

Yonas Aregai

Okay, that's pretty good.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Reaction to what I don't like, which is these Americanized intros. So I usually have a small intro at the beginning of the episode, so not something we'll record here, just explaining what's going on today. And then I ask the guest, who are you and what do you do? And that's from everything from huge, well, famous founders to whoever it is. And then you could explain like 30 seconds, one minute, briefly what you do, sort of what you did before. And that sort of sets the scene. Of who you are. And then we'll go and talk a bit about goal state and sort of like for a couple of minutes, what do you do? What's your investment philosophy? It was started in 2022, these kinds of things. And then we'll basically dissect the theme as much as we can. And I also ask you about your journey. Obviously, the Alan Walker case is sort of like a red silver lining between a lot of things. So that can be really interesting for sort of all your learnings going from both like hands-on with music to write tech with sessions and also Ellen Warpter's part of both of those journeys, if that makes sense. I think that could be interesting. Yeah. Cool. That all sounds great. Yeah. Do you have any questions? No, I had a question, but you kind of answered it in this in terms of just, you know, how to intro the whole sequence. Yeah. That's it. Cool.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah. That all sounds great. So yeah.

Yonas Aregai

No, I had a question, but you kind of answered it in this in terms of just, you know, how to intro the whole sequence, but yeah.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I got my water. I'm ready. So if you're ready, I will start in five seconds.

Yonas Aregai

Great.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Hey guys and welcome back to the Sound Connections Podcast. Today we have Jonas in the studio. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Jonas, I've been looking forward to this. We're going to talk about something that's really interesting, something that's been quite popular to talk about the last six years and that is the IP rights acquisitions. And Jonas, for people who don't know you, who are you and what do you do? Yeah, I'm Jonas, born and raised in Oslo to immigrant parents from Eritrea.

Yonas Aregai

Thank you, thank you for having me.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, I'm Jonas. Born and raised in Oslo to immigrant parents from Eritrea. I've been in the music industry for the past, let's say 15 years, mainly in talent management and kind of, you know, adjacent roles. And for the past couple of years, two and a half years, I've been in the rights acquisition space. Currently the chief of staff at Goldstick Music, which is a music investment fund out of the US. So that's what I currently do.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I've been in the music industry for past, let's say 15 years, mainly in talent management and kind of adjacent roles. And for the past couple of years, two and a half years, I've been in the rights acquisition space. Currently the chief of staff at Goldfish Music, which is a music investment fund out of the US. So that's what I currently do. Amazing. And that's not like a small player per se. You guys have invested quite a bit over the last few years. So could you tell me a bit about Gold State Music. What do and how much do you invest and what do you focus on? Yeah, so Gold State has been around for now close to three years. Started up in 2022. We focus on investing in music rights. So historical catalog across the ecosystems that could be publishing rights, master recordings, neighboring rights, producer royalties, the whole spectrum, even NIL rights as well.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, so Goalstay has been around for now close to three years, started up in 2022. We focus on investing in music rights. So historical catalog across the ecosystem. So that could be publishing rights, master recordings, know, neighboring rights, producer royalties. Yeah, the whole spectrum, even NIL rights as well. And then the second side of our

Jakob Wredstrøm

And then the second side of our fund is investing in enterprises within the music space. So that could be platforms that, know, that share or create services or products that, you know, help the industry. So we would like to invest in those to help them grow. So not necessarily startups, but more so enterprises who have, you know, a foundation and they're looking for capital to take the next steps in their phase. Amazing. We'll dissect both.

Yonas Aregai

Fund is investing in enterprises within the music space. So that could be platforms that, know, that share or create services or products that, you know, help the industry. So we would like to invest in those to help them grow. So not necessarily startups, but more so enterprises who have, you know, a foundation and they're looking for capital to take the next steps in their phase.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah.

Jakob Wredstrøm

But in order to set the scene, think it's really interesting to understand your journey because they're very interconnected. Maybe we could start with your hands on experience from Meerkrupp. I don't know how to pronounce that. Is that English or Danish or Norwegian? Meerkrupp? Yeah, some say Meerkrupp, whatever. Explain the journey there because it's really interesting and it really relates to what you do now as well.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, say M.E.R. group, yeah, whatever.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, so prior to Gold State, spent close to a decade at M.E.R. Group or M.E.R. Group. It's an independent music company, kind full service music company that covers management, record label services, publishing, content creation and brand development, merchandise, studio services. So pretty much a full service music company, I guess, except the booking and the live component.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yes, so prior to Gold State I spent close to a decade at MER Group. It's an independent music company, kind full-service music company that covers management, record label services, publishing, content creation and brand development, merchandise, studio services. So pretty much a full-service music company, I guess, except the booking and the live component.

Yonas Aregai

Although they do live production and event management as well. I started there as a production manager and then kind of built my way up through the different components of the company and concern basically and ended up as GM and partner for the last, I'd say four or five years of my stint there. And the company is based out of Norway with a very international focus, at least for the past

Jakob Wredstrøm

Although they do live production and event management as well. I started there as a production manager and then kind of my way up through the different components of the company and the concern basically and ended up as GM and partner for the last, let's say, four five years of my stint there. And the company is based out of Norway with a very international focus, at least for the past

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, nine, 10 years. And flagship client there is Alan Walker, who I was proud to say that we helped kind of, you know, build his career from a bedroom producer to a household name within the EDM scene and, or pop EDM scene, if you will.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yeah, nine, 10 years and flagship client there is Alan Walker, who I was proud to say that we helped kind of build his career from a bedroom producer to a household name with an EDM scene or a pop EDM scene, if you will. And what's really surprising about Alan Walker is I knew that he was big, but it was only a couple of years ago when I started looking at stats and like, Alan Walker might be much bigger than people think. Like in No Way, even though he's from No Way, like this is not his home market per se when it comes to streams and stuff. Could you tell me a bit about that journey with Alan Walker because it's very relevant to also the worth of what music can be worth later. Yeah, I'd say you're spot on in kind of your assessment. Somebody said before in the industry that Alan is probably the biggest artist you've never heard of.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, I'd say you're spot on in kind of your assessment. Somebody has said before in the industry that Alan is probably, you know, the biggest artist you've never heard of. And obviously that's about to change. And he's done a lot of great work in terms of, you know, making sure that he takes a step into becoming a household name. And in a lot of places around the world he is, but you're right in terms of the numbers and the stats and the merits and the accolades, it may not necessarily, you know, match the actual

Jakob Wredstrøm

And obviously that's about to change and he's done a lot of great work in terms of making sure that he takes a step into becoming a household name. And in lot of places around the world he is, but you're right in terms of the numbers and the stats and the merits and the accolades, it may not necessarily match the actual kind of the spotlight and then the shine that he gets as far as his career, which is still fairly young as well.

Yonas Aregai

Kind of, you know, the spotlight and the shine that he gets as far as his career, which is still fairly young as well, although he's been around for close to a decade. Yeah, it's, I'd say, you down to a very sophisticated strategy that has been implemented since day one, really. And to your point as well, obviously, it's a part of, know, building value that can, you down the line be monetized by way of, you know...

Jakob Wredstrøm

Although he's been around for close to a decade. Yeah, it's, say, down to a very sophisticated strategy that has been implemented since day one, really. And to your point as well, obviously, it's a part of building value that can down the line be monetized by way of, if you want to transact and sell your catalog, or if you want to maintain the rights, but rather exploit them in a different way, it's obviously helpful. Yeah.

Yonas Aregai

If you want to transact and sell your catalog or if you want to maintain the rights but rather exploit them in a different way, it's obviously helpful. So yeah.

Jakob Wredstrøm

He has now 50 billion streams, is that correct? Is it more? I'm pretty sure it's more. I'm not as close to Alan, but I'd say it's probably closer to 100. Wow. And that's amazing.

Yonas Aregai

I'm pretty sure it's more. I'm obviously not as close to Alan, but I'd say it's probably closer to 100.

Jakob Wredstrøm

This is very relevant for the talk we have today because there's, I've talked with a of people about IP rights on the podcast and there's one conversation that stands out and it's for a person that I've known for many years, Ulle Dreyer, who's the chairman of the public association in Denmark and he just said, publishing is a penny business. But I think that goes to many different parts of music industry, also master that it's a culmination of a lot of small incomes. That just scales and scales and scales and only really when you reach scale is when you see that huge opportunity. That's both the beauty and the downside of music. And when it comes into IP rights acquisition, that's obviously one of the most important things. Could you dissect for us for Go-Safe, for example, if you're looking at acquiring a catalog, what do you look for? What are the key metrics, even the most basic ones, if you just dissect why are you investing in things? Yeah, so in terms of the why, I guess the idea that was implemented by the founder, Charles Kolsak, to bridge the worlds of creative artistry and institutional capital in a way that honors the legacy of music while maximizing its long-term value.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, so in terms of the why, I guess the idea that was implemented by the founder, Charles Goldstock, is to bridge the worlds, I guess, of creative artistry and institutional capital in a way that honors the legacy of music while maximizing its long-term value. And what we tried to do through our growing portfolio of quality repertoire is trying to build a dynamic platform that supports that sustainable growth of music IP across generation and to your point of kind of, you know...

Jakob Wredstrøm

What we try to do through our growing portfolio of quality repertoire is trying to build like a dynamic platform that supports that sustainable growth of music IP across generation and to a point of kind of, know, accumulating value, accumulating catalog. And I guess at the core of that in terms of what we look for is quality repertoire. Mentioned that earlier and you know, that obviously can be seen in the numbers, but in some cases that may also may not necessarily resonate in terms of the actual metrics, but

Yonas Aregai

Accumulating value, accumulating catalog. And I guess at the core of that, in terms of what we look for is quality repertoire. I mentioned that earlier and you know, that obviously can be seen in the numbers, but in some cases that may also may not necessarily resonate in terms of the actual metrics, but there may be identifiable drivers that we think can, you know, have potential to grow down the line. So that's kind of the approach from us at a very high level. I guess in terms of the type of rights that we look for, we

Jakob Wredstrøm

There may be identifiable drivers that we think can have potential to grow down the line. That's kind of the approach from us at a very high level. I guess in terms of the type of rights that we look for, we obviously have acquired a variety of different rights and a variety from repertoire across genres and ages and territories, et cetera. But in terms of our sweet spot, I'd say we like and we feel that we can do well with actor-creator rights.

Yonas Aregai

Obviously have acquired a variety of different rights and a variety of different repertoire across genres and ages and territories, et cetera. But in terms of our sweet spot, I'd say we like and we feel that we can do well with active creative rights. So I would say, know, rights belonging to artists or songwriters or producers who have a fair bit of history and, you know, a catalog that they've built over years, but somebody who's still, you know, active with, you know, future output and current output.

Jakob Wredstrøm

So would say, know, belonging to artists or songwriters or producers who have a fair bit of history and, you know, a catalog that they've built over years. Somebody who's still, you know, active with, you know, future output and current output, I think we do well with that. We obviously also acknowledge that, you know, as their future output starts to hit the marketplace, it would also benefit the catalog and vice versa in terms of how we exploit the catalog as well. Yeah. Obviously there's, you know,

Yonas Aregai

I think we do well with that and obviously also acknowledge that as their future output starts to hit the marketplace, it would also benefit the catalog and vice versa in terms of how we exploit the catalog as well.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Two different directions. Generally speaking, there's like the evergreens that was and the assets are not there yet, but continues to be consumed. And then there's sort of these active catalogs or semi-active catalogs. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just sort of trying to get my pitch material back up from six years ago when I ran the startup that had this as a proposition. The basics of IP rights really is what you would call the long tail. A song is released after some time, 18, 36 months. You have some sort long tail income. What generally happens is as long as this is evergreen territory, so people who... it's really popular music, it steadily grows or are sort of stable-ish over time, which means it's a fairly predictable asset. Is that correct?

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, would say you're spot on in terms of your assessment. It's obviously repertoire the way it's consumed today and the streaming age of music consumption. You have a repertoire as it hits the marketplace being consumed at a certain level. Obviously, it's subject to a decay for years to follow. Then at some point, and that varies for every single catalog, but you can see some trends. Would reach a steady state where the income

Jakob Wredstrøm

I would say you're spot on in terms of your assessment. Obviously repertoire, the way it's consumed today, the streaming age of music consumption, you have the repertoire as it the marketplace being consumed at a certain level. Obviously it's subject to a decay for years to follow. And then at some point, and that varies for every single catalogue, but you can see some trends, would reach a steady state where the income...

Yonas Aregai

Finds this kind of baseline, it's long tailed if you will. And from that point onwards, depending on the catalog again, it would potentially slightly even grow from that baseline or decay a little bit or go up and down. But at an average, we just stay state where you can have to your point a fairly predictable income stream that will go on into perpetuity.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You know, finds this kind of baseline, it's long tailed if you will. And from that point onwards, would, you know, depending on the catalog again, would potentially, you know, slightly even grow from that baseline or decay a little bit or, you know, go up and down. But, you know, at an average, we just stay safe where you can have to your point, a fairly, you know, predictable income stream that, you know, will go on into perpetuity. Yeah. And that's the interesting thing. And I'm going to, again, some more things back from my pitch pitching days on this and also just sort of dissect it. One of the things that's also really interesting about AppuWrites is obviously the topic about multiples. So again, our podcasts are really focused on entrepreneurship and ultimately the general outcome that a founder wants is they want to sell their company and that is basically there's an exit. But a music in its core form doesn't really have an exit because you own some rights and you are paid when that is consumed. And when it comes to funds like yourself, that is basically the creators version of an exit. They might retain some rights, they own something and they receive year over year a paycheck. But that's not something they can just say, hey, let me get the next 12 years income and get it now if they want to invest in something or they want to, know, for whatever reason. But with IP rights acquisitions, can. And depending on where in the hype cycle you were in, know, acquisitions, that could go anything between 7 to 25 X of an revenue associated to those rights. What's sort of, you guys came in, I think a really interesting spot in this whole public pursuit of IP rights because you came a few years later than the hypnosis, which in my book is maybe the first that made it this very aware for the general public to be aware of it. And you were sort of in the spot where things really started to take a lot of public spotlight.

Jakob Wredstrøm

What was your strategy when it came to the multiples and activate the catalog? Like, did you have any philosophies there? Yeah, well, the strategy, the overarching strategy is to build a fund that will kind of live on for generations. It's not necessarily with the purview to build, you know, a portfolio of rights to the exit over the course of the next, you know, five years or whatever the case may be. It's rather to, you know, have more of a long-term approach.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, well, the strategy, the overarching strategy is to build a fund that will kind of live on for generations. It's not necessarily with the purview to build a portfolio of rights to then exit over the course of the next five years or whatever the case may be. It's rather to have more of a long-term approach. And I think that also would inform your thinking in terms of how you value the catalogs. Obviously, you have to look at it through a financial lens, but also in terms of...

Jakob Wredstrøm

And I think that also, you know, would inform your thinking in terms of how you value the catalogs. Obviously, have to look at it through a financial lens, but also in terms of, you know, the quality of the repertoire you mentioned earlier, evergreens, but also kind of identifying what you think will be the evergreens of tomorrow, if you will. And you mentioned, obviously, you know, the multiples game or kind of the, you know, the chase for the biggest exit, if you will, and the way you could think about an exit. I think...

Yonas Aregai

The quality of the repertoire you mentioned earlier, evergreens, but also kind of identifying what you think will be the evergreens of tomorrow, if you will. And you mentioned obviously, know, the multiples game or kind of the, you know, the chase for the biggest exit, if you will, and the way you could think about an exit. I think the multiple itself is obviously a number that a lot of people get, you know, stuck on, but it's more so, you know, a very thorough and sophisticated.

Jakob Wredstrøm

The multiple itself is obviously a number that a lot of people get stuck on, but it's more so a very thorough and sophisticated analysis of understanding that the quantitative drivers and the qualitative factors of every single catalogue and even facets within that catalogue in terms of different songs and how they move and how they grow and evolve over time. And I guess the multiple is kind of the

Yonas Aregai

Of understanding that the quantitative drivers and the qualitative factors of every single catalogue and even facets within that catalogue in terms of different songs and how they move and how they grow and evolve over time. I guess the multiple is kind of the output, the executive summary of that analysis, if you will. But there's so much that goes into the analysis of how you kind of reach catalogue valuation.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You know, the output, the executive summary of that analysis, if you will, but there's still enough that goes into the analysis of how you kind of reach catalog evaluation. Yeah. Let's dissect that in two seconds because that's really interesting. But I do want to touch one point as well, again, and I'm going to refer a lot back to hypnosis because this is sort of where my last heavy research on the topic stops. So I'm very happy to talk with you now. But one of their core value propositions back in the day the rare public about was synchronization and activation of catalog that might be less utilized. Is that a part of your core business or are you focusing more of like the artist being active and out sort of creating new stuff? Where's your focus on activating the catalog? I would say both. I would say both. In terms of how we approach portfolio management, there's a lot of different things that you can implement into how to try and build a catalog and its performance after closing and after.

Yonas Aregai

I would say both. Would say both. So in terms of how we approach portfolio management, there's a lot of different things that you can implement into how to try and build a catalog and its performance after closing and after transacting. One of those things is creatively looking at sync and licensing and different usage of the music, still in line with the artist's identity and brand and their values, if you will. And we can get back that later.

Jakob Wredstrøm

After transacting, one of those things is creatively looking at sync and licensing and different usage of the music, still in line with the artist's identity and brand and their values, if you will, and we can get back to that later. Another part of it is looking at the admin of it, making sure that the collection is being done at a level it should, making sure that no one is left on the table, maybe even consolidating rights and...

Yonas Aregai

Another part of it is looking at the admin of it, making sure that the collection is being done at a level it should, making sure that no money is left on the table, maybe even consolidating rights and optimizing the admin partnerships and how it's being collected and what type of different agreements are in place. Maybe looking at new output that could utilize the copyrights that you were in control of, whether...

Jakob Wredstrøm

Optimizing the admin partnerships and then how it's being collected and what type of different agreements are in place. Maybe looking at new output that can utilize the copyrights that you are in control of, whether it's by way of re-releases or interpolations or samples and those kinds of things. So there's a lot of different things, but sync obviously is a big part of that and it's a very tangible lane as well. Your current title right now is Chief of Staff.

Yonas Aregai

It's by way of re-releases or interpolations or samples and those kinds of things. So there's a lot of different things, but yes, sync obviously is a big part of that and it's a very tangible lane as well.

Jakob Wredstrøm

What type of team is needed to execute on such management? Can you break down the roles and what they do to some degree so we just get an idea of what it means to run this? Yeah, so we have a team of 20 plus people at this point, mainly based out of the US. Like you said, my role is Chief of Staff and within that lies somewhat of an all-around responsibility across a variety of different parts of the company.

Yonas Aregai

Yes.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, so we have a team of 20 plus people at this point, mainly based out of the US. Like you said, my role is Chief of Staff. Within that lies somewhat of an all-around responsibility across a variety of different parts of the company. In terms of valuing the actual catalogs that come on our table as far as incoming deal flow or potential target acquisitions that we look at.

Jakob Wredstrøm

In terms of valuing the actual catalogs that come on our table as far as incoming deal flow or potential target acquisitions that we look at, we have a very sophisticated in-house deal team. We four people who have extensive experience with this and they do the actual work of analyzing every single deal that we explore or pursue in terms of coming up with a fairer catalog valuation for that opportunity.

Yonas Aregai

We have a very sophisticated in-house deal team, handful of people who have extensive experience with this. And they do the actual work of analyzing every single deal that we explore or pursue in terms of coming up with a fairer catalog valuation for that opportunity. And then there's working with the seller community, their representatives, whether that's their management, their lawyers, their business managers, et cetera.

Jakob Wredstrøm

And then there's working with the seller community, their representatives, whether that's their management, their lawyers, their business managers, et cetera. There may be advisors in place if there's tax implications that you need to look at and other elements in that regard. And so we work very well in terms of the pre-closed process. And then we also have a team of portfolio management team that

Yonas Aregai

There may be advisors in place and if there's tax implications that you need to look at and then other elements in that regard. And so we work very well in terms of the pre-closed process. And then we also have a team of portfolio management team that make sure that the portfolio that we have under management and the assets that we have under management are being exploited properly to ensure that we're seeing that.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You know, make sure that the portfolio that we have under management and the assets that we have under management are being exploited properly to ensure that we're seeing the revenue that we're supposed to from each of these catalogs to make sure that the partners that are in play because there's a variety, there's an abundance really of different sources that pay out the income relating to each single catalog, whether that's on the publishing side or the master side.

Yonas Aregai

The revenue that we're supposed to from each of these catalogs to make sure that the partners that are in play, because there's a variety, there's an abundance really of different sources that pay out the income relating to each single catalog, whether that's on the publishing side or the master side. So obviously working very close with them and that's external partners, but our in-house team would then analyze the income, make sure that the performance or understand whether the performance is holding up relative to that.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Obviously we're working very close with them and that's external partners. But our team would then analyze the income, make sure that the performance or understand whether the performance is holding up relative to the forecast that we put in place when analyzing that tool catalogs pre-closing and continuously. And then there's also creative team working with creative initiatives and marketing initiatives in terms of how to exclude the catalog. And that's very much that.

Yonas Aregai

The forecast that we put in place when analyzing the actual catalogs pre-closed in and continuously. And then there's also a creative team working with creative initiatives and marketing initiatives in terms of how to exploit the catalog. And that's very much a combination of our initial and internal initiatives. And then teaming up with the artists and their representatives, because if somebody is an active artist like an Alan Walker,

Jakob Wredstrøm

A combination of our initial and internal initiatives and then teaming up with the artists and their representatives because if somebody is an active artist like an Alan Walker or a Rodeo or somebody else, they may have, or they surely have existing activity for their frontline output and repertoire and there's obviously limited real estate that you could occupy in terms of their communication to the audience so that

Yonas Aregai

Or somebody else, they may have, you know, or they surely have existing activity for their frontline output and repertoire and there's obviously limited real estate that you could occupy in terms of their communication to the audience so that you would have to align with those initiatives but there's also things that we can do that doesn't necessarily intervene or intersect as well. That's kind of the team at large in terms of kind of, the...

Jakob Wredstrøm

You would have to align with those initiatives, but there's also things that we can do that doesn't necessarily intervene or intersect as well. That's kind of the team at large in terms of kind of the different components or departments, if you will. Yeah. Well, I can also see this as very much database, mathematics, economy. It's a nerdy business and then a tiny bit of creative.

Yonas Aregai

The different components or departments, if you will.

Jakob Wredstrøm

As far as I can understand, you have close to a billion in assets under management at the fund, is that correct? No, not at this point. I'd say we're probably around 400 million. Yeah. And then our recent capital raise hopefully will get us to that billion dollar mark over the course of the next years. Yeah. Well, it's very impressive. And obviously you're managing a lot of money and going back to the valuation metrics, that obviously is key.

Yonas Aregai

No, not at this point. I'd say we're probably around $400 million. And then our recent capital raise hopefully will get us to that billion-dollar mark over the course of the next years.

Jakob Wredstrøm

You need to make good deals besides activating the catalogs and partnering with outsists that are active and can promote it. The valuation is really important. Could you break down maybe some of the core components that goes into evaluating the catalog? Yeah, it's a very multifaceted process. Mentioned that earlier in terms of the drivers and the factors that go into evaluating a catalog. Because obviously, data analytics have become incredibly sophisticated and looking at consumption patterns or other uses of the music historically, looking at demographic trends, looking at historical revenue volatility, all of those things come into play. But then beyond that, we also try to understand the intangibles, if you will, in terms of the

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, it's a very multifaceted process. I mentioned that earlier in terms of the drivers and the factors that go into evaluating a catalog, because obviously data analytics have become incredibly sophisticated and looking at consumption patterns or other uses of the music historically, looking at demographic trends, looking at historical revenue volatility, all of those things come into play. But then beyond that, we also try to understand the intangibles, if you will, in terms of the cultural impact of the music, the genre, the artists themselves, their ongoing engagement with fans, potential future uses in media or other emerging platforms. All of those things come into play. And we also know that artists, and I use artists as kind of an overarching term, but it's really the creatives. Could be producers, songwriters, any rights holder in question, but for ease, let's use artists. They would want, most of them,

Jakob Wredstrøm

The cultural impact of the music, the genre, the artists themselves, their ongoing engagement with fans, potential future uses in media or other emerging platforms, all of those things come into play. And we also know that artists, and I use artists as kind of an overarching term, but it's really the creatives. Could be producers, songwriters, any rights holder in question, but for ease, let's use artists. And they would want, most of them,

Yonas Aregai

Obviously are looking for the biggest paycheck, like you said, the biggest exit if they're entertaining the sale of their catalog. But most of them also want more than just a price tag, if you know, like they want a partner who understands the emotional significance of their work, someone who will, you know, preserve their legacy while unlocking financial value. And so that, you know, that transparency, that flexibility, you know, ongoing collaboration with the seller communities.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Obviously are looking for the biggest paycheck, like you said, the biggest exit, if they're indicating the sale of their catalog. But most of them also want more than just the price tag, if you know, like they want a partner who understands the emotional significance of their work, someone who will preserve their legacy while unlocking financial value. And so that transparency, that flexibility, that ongoing collaboration with the seller communities.

Yonas Aregai

Probably also just as critical to the artist as the actual financial terms themselves that make up the actual valuation of the catalog. I'm not sure if that answered your question, but yeah.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Probably also just as critical to the artist as the actual financial terms themselves that make up the actual valuation of the catalog. I'm not sure if that answered your question. It definitely did. It's nerdy, but it definitely did. That's also the valuation of catalogs, how you price them, has obviously also been sort of in the media the last couple of years, also on the negative sides. Again, I'm just taking cases I know. Hypnosis has to some degree been a bit controversial. The whole value proposition from their side is not so much that you need to have dividends that are crazy. We're not looking at 20 % year-over-year returns. We're looking at much more modest. Oftentimes, I saw projections of 3 to 5%. And if you know a little bit about investment, that's not a great... return on investment. And so why is music interesting? And one of the things that I found really interesting about this whole value proposition, and it differs a bit from fund to fund. But one of the most powerful statements about music is, I'll use some buzzwords though, it's a sort of diversified asset class, non correlated to the general equity markets. What that basically means is, it works differently than a lot of other things. So music can make money in instances where other things don't. Gold state music, how big of a selling point is that to your LPs, the investors financing these acquisitions? Yeah, those buzzwords are pretty much the words I would use as well in terms of understanding why this as an asset class has become so predominant in the industry. And I think in terms of the investors, like you said, they're looking for,

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, those buzzwords are pretty much the words I would use as well in terms of understanding why this as an asset class has become so predominant in the industry. And I think in terms of the investors, like you said, they're looking for diversified portfolio of rights that appreciate in value. For us, it's not really a matter of convincing our investors to or think about it this way.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Diversified portfolio of rights that appreciate the value. For us, it's not really a matter of convincing our investors to think about it this way, the objectives of the creative community and the artists doesn't necessarily differ too much from the objectives of the investor community. Because I think you have to recognize that artists and investors actually share more common ground than people assume.

Yonas Aregai

The objectives of the creative community and the artists doesn't necessarily differ too much from the objectives of the investor community, because I think you have to recognize that artists and investors actually share more common ground than people assume. I think both parties would want the music, the rights in our portfolio to be successful for the long term, both financially and culturally, reputationally. I think artists wants their legacies to be protected and their work to reach to audiences and

Jakob Wredstrøm

Artists who want the music, the rights in our portfolio to be successful for the long term, both financially and culturally, reputationally. I think artists want their legacies to be protected and their work to reach to audiences. And like you said, investors want stable, appreciating assets. And I think our job is to align those incentives through, know, active catalog management efforts that deliver returns without compromising that creative integrity. Think that means setting thoughtful boundaries around

Yonas Aregai

Like you said, investors want stable appreciating assets. And I think our job is to align those incentives through active catalog management efforts that deliver returns without compromising that creative integrity. I think that means setting thoughtful boundaries around the usage of repertoire in terms of licensing, cetera, preserving the voice of the artist in brand and sync partnership or any communication, and also ensuring long-term stewardship.

Jakob Wredstrøm

The usage of Revacar in terms of licensing, cetera, preserving the voice of the artist in brand and sync partnership or any communication. And also ensuring long-term stewardship or basically just making sure that the catalog is preserved in accordance with all stakeholders while still maintaining commercial efficiency of sort. And I think when that's done right, the trust and performance kind of reinforce each other.

Yonas Aregai

Basically just making sure that the catalog is preserved in accordance with all stakeholders while still maintaining commercial efficiency of sort. And I think when that's done right, the trust and performance kind of reinforce each other.

Jakob Wredstrøm

I don't know if this is public numbers, so feel free not to answer if it isn't. But what sort of dividend outcome are you looking for as a fund? Do you have a goal of like, this is what we want to reach? We do, but not public. Sure. Yeah, but still, like, either if it's high or low, the argument still stands that if you look from like an investment portfolio perspective from LPs,

Yonas Aregai

We do, but not public, like you said.

Jakob Wredstrøm

It can be a very attractive investment even if it underperforms other opportunities. Because of course, know what you just mentioned with the legacy and the importance, but also just because it's diversified in itself. And a lot of, And I think you're right. And you mentioned earlier that the non-correlation part, which is I think important because one thing we know or could say fairly certainly is that music will be consumed.

Yonas Aregai

I think you're right. And you mentioned earlier the non-correlation part, which is, think, important because one thing we know or can say fairly certainly is that music will be consumed at any given time in like any context, whether economy is good or bad, whether there's unstable things happening in the world, whatever the case may be, music will be consumed, I think, and people would want to be entertained in some shape or form. I think the...

Jakob Wredstrøm

At any given time, in like any context, whether know, card is good or bad, whether you know, there's unstable, you know, things happening in the world, whatever the case may be, music will be consumed, I think, and people would want to be entertained in some shape or form. I think the, you know, the variable is more so, in what way will they want to be entertained, or in what way will they consume music. So I think as long as one, you know, stands as close as possible to the

Yonas Aregai

You know, the variable is more so in what way will they want to be entertained or in what way will they consume music. So I think as long as one, you know, stands as close as possible to the actual rights and the actual content, you know, I think you will be in a good place and obviously you'll have to be dynamic and adjust to those trends that I mentioned. But I think as long as you're as close to the rights as possible, it's fairly difficult to not be in a position of, you know, growth.

Jakob Wredstrøm

The actual rights and the actual content, I think you will be in a good place and obviously you'll have to be dynamic and adjust to those trends that I mentioned. But I think as long as you're as close to the rights as possible, it's fairly difficult to not be in a position that has no growth. Playing the devil's advocate on the rights acquisitions model, at least in sort of the public perception is the assumption of the fallacy of streaming will continue to grow and the revenue continues to grow in this very high growth market. And again, I'm just playing on sort of things I read in here. One of the assumptions for certain funds at least is that, you know, a very optimistic view on that things would just keep on growing and they sort of put that into the evaluation metrics. What's gold state sort of standpoint on the growing revenue of music and where do see this heading and how does that affect your catalog? Yeah well I think on a general note obviously we are optimistic about the future because if not we wouldn't be in this game at all but I think you're right in terms of you know that there's different levels to this and we probably see ourselves you know turning down a majority of the acquisitions that are being presented to us as potential deals.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, well, I think on a general note, obviously, we are optimistic about the future because if not, we wouldn't be in this game at all. But I think you're right in terms of, know, there's different levels to this and we probably see ourselves, you know, turning down a majority of the acquisitions that are being presented to us as potential deals. And also more often than not, we're being outbid just because, you know, we have a modest or, you know,

Jakob Wredstrøm

And also more often than not we're being outbid just because you know we have a modest or you know a fair understanding of the value that we think a catalog has and we're not necessarily going to deviate from that. Think in any business that you run whether that's know a music fund or a startup or whatever you have to kind of you know understand what your strategy is and then implement that and try to you know keep the eyes of the price and not be diluted by you know

Yonas Aregai

A fair understanding of the value that we think a catalog has and we're not necessarily going to deviate from that. Think in any business that you run, whether that's a music fund or a startup or whatever, you have to of understand what your strategy is and then implement that and try to keep the eyes on the price and not be diluted by external factors or what others are doing. So we're not necessarily putting too much weight onto the buzzwords or the...

Jakob Wredstrøm

External factors or what others are doing so we're not necessarily putting too much weight onto the buzzwords or the headlines of the marketplace but rather staying true and trusting our own vision and our own strategy but that would also mean that we may not be in a position to get every deal that we're looking at because we may be priced out of it.

Yonas Aregai

Headlines of the marketplace, but rather, know, you know, true and trusting our own vision, our own strategy. But that would also, you know, mean that we may not be in a position to, you know, get every deal that we're looking at because we may be priced out of it, you know.

Jako m

There's an interesting discussion, especially from a rights holder, the whole thing about AI. And I think what is extra interesting is, for example, now I'm taking the case of Alan Walker again. Like you can, you can quite, you can state that he has been sort of a front runner in a certain style. Like he has influenced a lot of music the last few years and he's been the first move on certain styles that have been sort of adapted popularity. And I'm not an expert in sort of the neural networks of music AI, but I think it's a fair assumption to say that, you know, a lot of his music has been the source of a lot of AI training. What's your position on that? Is that like a battle you're going into or sitting on the sidelines? Like, what do you guys think about that? Yeah, this is a space that we follow fairly closely. We have people internally that, you know, are doing some extensive research on it. But I think

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, this is a space that we follow fairly closely. Have people internally that are doing some extensive research on it, but I think the kind of just emerging tech in general, but obviously AI in particular, you can't deny that it's reshaping the industry at a pace that I think far outstrips our current frameworks in terms of regulation. And I think that while these tools offer excited...

Jakob Wredstrøm

The kind of the just emerging tech in general, but obviously AI in particular, you can't deny that it's reshaping the industry at a pace that I think far outstrips our current like frameworks in terms of regulation. And I think that while these tools offer, you know, excited creative and operational possibilities, they also raise serious questions about, you know, authorship, like you said, attribution, ethical use, things.

Yonas Aregai

Creative and operational possibilities. They also raise serious questions about authorship, you said, rights attribution, ethical use, these things. So as AI becomes more deeply integrated into music creation and music distribution, we need, I think, clear, enforceable standards that protect original creators and ensure fair compensation. This isn't just about safeguarding the past. And Alan's right. It's about building trust and transparency for the future, I think.

Jakob Wredstrøm

As AI becomes more deeply integrated into music creation and music distribution, we need, I think, clear, enforceable standards that protect original creators and ensure fair compensation. This isn't just about safeguarding the past, and Alan's right. It's about building trust and transparency for the future, think. Governance, compliance, legislation, it needs to evolve to meet these challenges head on.

Yonas Aregai

Governance, compliance, legislation, it needs to evolve to meet these challenges head on. Because I think without those things, artist independence and ownership risk being diluted by systems that were necessarily designed to account for the complexities of algorithmic influence or synthetic content, if you will.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Because I think without those things, artist independence and ownership risk being diluted by systems that were necessarily designed to account for the complexities of algorithmic influence or synthetic content, if you will. Yeah. And one of the big discussions in tech, in music, is obviously how to use technology to down the line allocate, you know, revenue from these services or this use to rights holders. One of the key technologies in question here, and I would just love to hear from your mouth and what you guys thoughts on this, is sort of the use of technology like blockchain. Is that something that you see as a big part of this whole thing or how are you pursuing the tech stack to sort of pursue all this money? Is there a particular direction in tech you're pursuing?

Yonas Aregai

Not necessarily. Obviously, we pay attention to all of it. And when we feel like there's a position that we can effectively take on, we would do that. But I think it's also fairly early in terms of the life cycle of this new development and new technology taking its position in the marketplace. So I think there is definitely some cautious optimism, if you will, in terms of how this will influence our space, if you will.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Not necessarily. Obviously, we pay attention to all of it. And when we feel like there's a position that we can effectively take on, we would do that. But I think it's also fairly early in terms of the life cycle of this new development and new technology taking its position in the marketplace. So I think there is definitely some cautious optimism, if you will, in terms of how this will influence our space, if you will.

Yonas Aregai

We're very much so in a position, I think, as an industry of still trying to figure out the guardrails and how this will be implemented into the existing structures of our business.

Jakob Wredstrøm

We're very much in a position, I think, as an industry of still trying to figure out the guardrails and how this will be implemented into the existing structures of our business. You mentioned at the beginning that Gold State Music also have these investments you do in enterprise platforms. And I would assume that you also have an investment thesis that's focused on some sort of synergy to your main revenue from the fund. How do you think about investments and how does that create a symbiosis with the rights acquisition? Yeah, so on the enterprise side, terms of the growth fund that we have, they are two separate vehicles in terms of our approach. Like you said, if there are synergies or if our investments that we do into enterprises that build music services or platforms can also positively affect the rights that we control in the rights fund.

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, so on the enterprise side, in terms of the growth fund that we have, they are two separate vehicles in terms of our approach. Like you said, if there are synergies or if our investments that we do into enterprises that build music services or platforms can also positively affect the rights that we control in the rights fund, that's obviously a dream, but it's not a deal breaker in terms of that being in place.

Jakob Wredstrøm

That's obviously a dream, it's not a deal breaker in terms of that being in place. But we're very selective in terms of the opportunities that we pursue in the enterprise space. We haven't done more than a couple of investments since we started up in this avenue in terms of investing into businesses and enterprises, but it's more so about finding the...

Yonas Aregai

But we're very selective in terms of the opportunities that we pursue in the enterprise space. We haven't done more than a couple of investments since we started up in this avenue in terms of investing into businesses and enterprises. But it's more so about finding the companies, the platforms, the products, the services that we feel like, and the people most importantly, that we feel like align with our thesis as a whole. And then maybe

Jakob Wredstrøm

The companies, the platforms, the products, the services that we feel like and the people most importantly that we feel like align with our thesis as a whole and then maybe trying to enable them to unlock some further growth potential. Does that also have a correlation between the rights fund being an evergreen structure where you don't necessarily have an exit goal like this is supposed to be a generational thing that brings dividends over time and managing?

Yonas Aregai

Trying to enable them to unlock some further growth potential.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Managing those rights? Does that have an extra element that there's a potential multiple upside from these investments? Or what's the mindset between those different models of operating two different funds? It definitely can be that. And it's not to say that the rights fund, we're not necessarily saying that we're never going to divest, but I think it's a matter of having just an open-ended strategy that is...

Yonas Aregai

It definitely can be that. And it's not to say that the rights fund, we're not necessarily saying that we're never going to divest, but I think it's a matter of having just an open-ended strategy that is with an approach that's more long-term than just a quick fix or a quick upside because we think that to preserve the value of music, it should have a lens that's beyond just a transactional lens, if you will, and just a financial buy.

Jakob Wredstrøm

With an approach that's more long-term, just a quick fix or a quick upside because we think that to preserve the value of music, it should have a lens that's beyond just the transactional lens, if you will, and just a financial buy. And I think having and owning rights over a longer period of time also enables us to not necessarily...

Yonas Aregai

And I think having and owning rights over a longer period of time also enables us to not necessarily be as stressed about short-term fluctuations in the marketplace in terms of how financial instruments operate. Even though it's non-correlated, there are movements in the marketplace at large in terms of business that could affect our catalogs and the rights that we control.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Be as stressed about short-term fluctuations in the marketplace in terms of how financial instruments operate, even though it's non-correlated, there are movements in the marketplace at large in terms of business that could affect our catalogs and the rights that we control. And if we think about it more of a holistic view in terms of longer time span, I think that enables us to have more comfort in that our thesis, our evaluation.

Yonas Aregai

If we think about it more of a holistic view in terms of longer time span, think that enables us to have more comfort in that our thesis, our evaluation models, our forecast will hold up over time.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Our forecast will hold up over time. This might be like a strategic perspective for you guys. Also feel free not to answer it, but like when you do evaluation of catalogs, does the assumption that you can increase the... multiple value if you were to divest at one point of the catalog play into your valuation? Like is there an aspect, will this decrease in value if it were to sell it off or will it increase in value? Is that a part of the whole valuation process? Yes, definitely. The short answer is yes, it's a part of our approach. Obviously, you're not going to go into our how we think about our models, but to answer your question, yes, I can confirm that. Yeah, because that's an interesting thing that's not spoken about.

Yonas Aregai

Yes, definitely. The short answer is yes, it's a part of our approach. Obviously, not going to go into how we think about our models, but to answer your question, yes, I can confirm that.

Jakob Wredstrøm

That much obviously because it also gets really complicated and there's a lot of big speculation in it. Obviously you can have speculation based on data, but still ultimately that speculation as pretty much any investment is. But that's maybe the unknown factor of lot of these things. Like again, you have some things that are pretty known, which is how will they perform over time? To big degree that's fairly known based on the history and how this whole works. But then there's the creative potential, then there's the access, how they're going to utilize their new catalog. And then obviously the value of the catalog at large if you were to sell. So my question is, where do believe this is heading for the industry at large? Obviously this has been a big...

Yonas Aregai

Yeah.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Focus here in the last couple years and there's a lot of big investors like KKR, Blackstone, the biggest investment funds in the world has come in and proclaimed this is something of a focus. Do you believe you've hit the height of that or like what's gonna change in the appetite for music rights over time? Yeah, I think in any case of rapidly growing spaces or evolving spaces as has been the case for the music rights acquisition, Elaine,

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, I think in any case of rapidly growing spaces or evolving spaces, as has been the case for the music rights acquisition lane, I think we're in a position or in a time right now of maturity where there may have been an influx of outside private equity money beyond just the bigger music corporations acquiring catalogs. And I think now we're in a position of...

Jakob Wredstrøm

I think we're in a position or in a time right now of maturity where there may have been an influx of outside private equity money beyond just the bigger music corporations acquiring catalogs. And I think now we're in a position of these companies understanding that different fluctuation in the marketplace, the cost of capital being at a more expensive rate right now than what it was.

Yonas Aregai

These companies understanding that different fluctuations in the marketplace, the cost of capital being at a more expensive rate right now than what it was five years ago, that obviously affects and influences how these buyers in the marketplace like ourselves think about things. I think we're in a position of maturing right now. And then that's probably going to be the...

Jakob Wredstrøm

Five years ago, that obviously affects and influences how these buyers in the marketplace like ourselves think about things. But I think we're in a position of maturing right now. And then that's probably going to be the tone, if you will, over course of the next couple of years. And I think that's also going to enable some firms and some buyers to further scale up and build.

Yonas Aregai

The tone, you will, over the course of the next couple of years. I think that's also going to enable some firms and some buyers to further scale up and build. And then some firms and some buyers may also just decide to opt out. And I think the secondary marketplace also is building right now in terms of funds that maybe came in early on to acquire rights and have built a portfolio of assets are now looking to divest and then maybe realize their

Jakob Wredstrøm

And then some firms and some buyers may also just decide to opt out. And I think the secondary marketplace also is building right now in terms of, know, funds that maybe came in early on to acquire rights and have built a portfolio of assets are now looking to divest and maybe realize their upside, potential upside, if you will. Yeah, and that's the big question. You know, I'm not informed enough to make my own predictions. One of the things that I do

Yonas Aregai

Their upside, if you will.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Like is really interesting now is like to some degree asset purchase or acquisition of IP rights represents a part of the business that's very much about you've made it which is great and it has its own value proposition and in reality this has gone on for decades it's not something new it's just you know the influx of P money has been like the newish thing but then obviously now the whole creator side is getting really interesting where like the monetization of work that has not yet reached evergreen status is really being strengthened. How do you believe that affects like these sort of catalogs in the future and how you might think about catalogs, how you might think about acquiring IPs, is that going to affect it at all? Or is that just a part of the ecosystem that embedders everything? I think it's a part of the ecosystem, yes. Obviously, as a buyer, you have a sweet spot in terms of the type of rights you look at and in terms of the younger rights that you mentioned. The age profile matters. Think some funds may focus solely on legacy catalog repertoire that has reached a steady state a long time ago. And some funds may be in the business of acquiring strictly younger catalog that is still subject to steep decay in their...

Yonas Aregai

I think it's a part of the ecosystem, yes. Obviously, as a buyer, you have a sweet spot in terms of the type of rights you look at and in terms of the younger rights that you mentioned. The age profile matters. Think some funds may focus solely on legacy catalog repertoire that has reached a steady state a long time ago. And some funds may be in the business of acquiring strictly younger catalog that is still subject to a steep decay in their revenue and performance, but that's obviously taking a bet on where you think that long tail that we talked about earlier will land, right? So I think it's just a matter of different buyers and different market players kind of differentiating themselves in terms of how they approach things.

Jakob Wredstrøm

The revenue and performance, but that's obviously taking a bet on where you think that long tail that we talked about earlier will land, right? So I think it's just a matter of different buyers and different market players kind of differentiating themselves in terms of how they approach things. Yeah. It's really interesting. And as also hear from your answer, like, you know, it's going to affect the ecosystem. It's unclear like how it's going to necessarily affect the top of the food chain. But one of the things I think about, which is sort of interesting, and again, I don't know the answers, I'm hoping to get some wisdom from you, is the whole thing with valuation of music. Obviously, a lot of the major labels went public the last five years, that... so an upswing, down, that's when everything, when anything is public, you see those swings. And the big question is whether or not we have reached maturity across the music industry and like that sort of high growth that was from the top of the food chain is sort of now declining and a lot of the growth will come from the creator economy or like these midsection players. Do you guys have any like thoughts about that? Like where are we as an industry when comes to this sort of valuation of the whole thing?

Yonas Aregai

Yeah, I think that's obviously the million dollar question and trying to understand that is a big part of our continued work. I think in terms of whether we've reached maturity or not, obviously the new model of consuming music by way of streaming has now been around for a couple of decades, depending on which market you're in. And obviously most markets have rolled out streaming platforms as their primary

Jakob Wredstrøm

Yeah, I think that's obviously the million dollar question and trying to understand that is a big part of our continued work. I think in terms of whether we've reached maturity or not, obviously the new model of consuming music by way of streaming has now been around for couple of decades, depending on which market you're in. And obviously most markets have rolled out streaming platforms as their primary

Yonas Aregai

Consumption model for music and as they continue to grow it and mature and sophisticated themselves in these markets and infrastructures are building and emerging markets as well. I think that will help to continue the growth of music. And I think we talked about AI obviously and putting in place legislation and regulatory framework that compensates the usage of copyrighted music.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Consumption model for music and as they continue to grow and mature and sophisticated themselves in these markets and infrastructures are building and emerging markets as well, I think that will help to continue the growth of music and I think we talked about AI obviously and putting in place legislation and regulatory framework that compensates the usage of copyrighted music.

Yonas Aregai

Once that is in place, I think that obviously also is a driver for continued growth in terms of the value of music because then you have infrastructure in place to actually compensate creators for the music that they've created before. If it's being used in, know, AI training or, you know, creation of synthetic content, if you will.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Once that is in place, think that obviously also is a driver for continued growth in terms of the value of music because then you have infrastructure in place to actually compensate creators for the music that they've created before if it's being used in AI training or creation of the synthetic content, if you will. Yeah. In other words, the current consumption models are probably going to grow, but then there's new revenue streams that does not exist at scale yet that could potentially really contribute into that. Well, we hope so. Hope so. According to the legislation and consumer behavior and all these other things that we really can't control. Well, great, Jonas. Well, it's been very informative for me and I'm very happy you want to spend your time explaining about gold state and your mindset and IP rights at large. Like I think one of the things that I hope about music as an entrepreneur that's been in this space for 12, 14 years and now

Yonas Aregai

Well, we hope so. Yeah.

Yonas Aregai

Correct.

Jakob Wredstrøm

Our Bench & Studio is also present in many other industries and in let's be frank, like we make so much more money other places than music, which wasn't my hope, but you know, at the end of the day, there's bills to pay. But the perception of value of music or the reality of value of music rather, that's gonna change. And I don't know from what angle. One of the things that I'm very bullish about is for example, the growing... economies, particularly I've mentioned this in a few podcasts, Nigeria is a great example where there's a lot of export of music right now. And obviously the income level of Nigeria is significantly lower than other places in the world. So the impact of value, rightfully attributed to these creators are incredibly high. And I hope that together with consumer behavior over time can basically make music worth more. And whatever parameter you want to look at that worth more. And I guess that is what is really needed in my perception to make entrepreneurship in music interesting. We're still at a place where music, comparatively speaking, isn't that interesting unless you do models like you guys do, which is playing... the financial markets game. And there is value there. No one can argue about that. But there's many other parts of music and utilization of music or entrepreneurship music that still isn't as good as that. Does that make sense?

Yonas Aregai

It makes total sense. It's obviously a big part of our strategy in terms of, you know, we're always trying to honor the legacy of music and then the value of music and maximizing its long-term value. And to your point of, you know, the perceived value of music versus the actual value of music, it's really about maybe bridging that gap, if you will, so that, you know, in the future it's more in line. But to your point, I think it's definitely a, you know, room for growth there.

Jakob Wredstrøm

It makes total sense. It's obviously a big part of our strategy in terms of, know, we're always trying to honor the legacy of music and the value of music and maximizing its long-term value. And to your point of, you know, that the perceived value of music versus the actual value of music, it's really about maybe bridging that gap, if you will. So that, you know, in the future it's more in line. But to your point, I think it's definitely a... You know roof of growth there and you mentioned, know a couple of examples the market example of Nigeria obviously is very interesting and Nigeria obviously being at the forefront of some of these emerging markets, but there's so many others as well And I think there's a lot of value to unlock in that and that's something that we have, you our eyes on as well Amazing Jonas. Thank you for your time. It was a great episode. Thanks for having me. Great Okay, so if you don't hang out quite yet, but just press stop then

Yonas Aregai

And you mentioned a couple of examples, the market example of Nigeria obviously is very interesting and Nigeria obviously being at the forefront of some of these emerging markets, but there are so many others as well. And I think there's a lot of value to unlock in that and that's something that we have our eyes on as well.

Yonas Aregai

Thanks for having me.